That depends on how the two cameras compare in low-light situations, and how you feel about the mellower depth of field of the EX1 due to the larger sensor - which puts the EX1 in a class by itself for HD cameras under $10K.

If money isn't a significant concern the EX1 should be an easy choice over the HMC150, but the latter is definitely cheaper. If price is a concern then the logical competitors to the HMC150 are other cameras in the same price range, at which point you're mainly choosing between solid state and tape-based workflow.

Well since I will probable go with an HPX-500 as my main camera (produced projects ect...), the role of this camera choice is for weddings and second & third camera for the HPX-500.

Which is why the HMC-150 - EX-1 debate is going on in my head.

It is some way a compliment to the HPX-500, but will also be used as the main camera in a wedding and small project situation.

Which is why I thought one of each - HPX-500 & HMC-150 pair and EX-1 & HMC-150 pair for weddings. (HMC-150 as a second camera for the ceremony only). All three for large events.

Or the best case in terms of color matching is two HMC-150s (if the image quality is not that much of a tradeoff from the EX-1) and an HPX-500.

So I am not concerned about camera class, I am approaching this from a pure business use/quality point of view.

Complex, but that is the state of buying cameras today.

David,

It's always fun reading your messages, like me, you have been around a few years and remember the "good old days" of 20 minute 3/4" Umatic "portable" decks that I think were around 70 or so pounds with a camera. Oh joy...


The rolling shutter issue never came up with tube cameras because the shutter was a 360 degree shutter at about 1/60th of a second. A whip pan would be mostly a blur with that long of a shutter. Camera Flashes appeared part on the first field and the rest on the second field. Plus some after image may have held for a short while.

Today's CMOS cameras, like the Sony V7, appear to have a faster speed for the rolling shutter. Thus the lean caused by a whip pan is very hard to see. However, camera flashes appear different on CMOS then from a tube camera. Flashes appear as bright horizontal strips at random points in the frame.

At this point, we are getting into a subjective area, because what bothers one person, may not bother another. To me the bright horizontal strips appear unnatural and bother me. However, because this is subjective, I understand why someone can say, "It doesn't bother me."



As far as offset pixel resolution on the HMC-150: Yes, in theory, if the color in the detail area is (0 -->100% Green AND 0% Red AND 0% Blue) OR (0% Green AND 0 --> 100% RED AND 0 --> 100% Blue), the resolution would be 960 x 540.

However, I've worked enough in Photoshop to know that this is more of an exception, than typical for images. For example, I've taken a photo I shot the other week of Motorized Scooters in a parking lot. No matter what point (color) I select in the image Red, Blue, and Green always have some component greater than 0 and changes at different locations in the image. In the photo I've attached, the Red of the Scooter also shows up as some green and blue. I've tried other colors in the image and get the same thing, at least some red, some blue, and some green.


Depending on the model one wishes to use, the increase in resolution from the 960 x 540 sensors could be form 1.2x to 1.5x. The number is debatable; however, to me the increase is enough to produce a reasonably sharp 1280x720 image.


Bob Diaz

Tim Polster,

Have you ever thought about pairing up the HPX500 with the HPX170? This way, the picture quality will be much more similar to each other and not to mention the codec being the same.

Hey Paulo,

Your correct, but I am a cheepskate and also like the long recording times of the HMC-150!

Yes, color matching and overall image "look" will be easier sticking with one brand of cameras, and if you don't care about 1080 resolution then the advantages of the EX1 are less. So the HMC150 fills a previous price/performance gap in Panasonic's lineup which corresponds with your situation, and you'd probably be fine with it - provided the HMC150 is good enough in low light for weddings.

Another option to consider would be to get one EX1 and two Sony Z7Us, but it sounds like you're inclined to go with Panasonic.

I Saw the first webshop with a price and availability end September in The Netherlands and it was 4200 euro which is 6080 dollar, is the price mentioned at B & H the regular price on the otehr side of the ocean? In that case we Europeans are getting sc***ed again. No wonder you guys can afford those expensive camera's, everything is 50% cheaper were you live. :)

Absolutely, as a recordist then, and we always had the additional weight of a sound mixer then! But as you find the comments fun........
Yes, I agree with most of that in principle. The only thing I'd add is to stress how I don't think you can have a simple number to represent resolution, it's the whole principle of mtf - how does the system deal with a change from 100% white to 0% black - how low a percentage mtf are you prepared to accept to say the system is still resolving that detail? And practically it will tail off with finer and finer detail - at what percentage do you say "that's the limiting resolution"?

And I suspect that for a given fineness of detail, the modulation factor will be a maximum if it is black-white, go down as the image becomes more coloured, and only go away in an extreme case, highly saturated colours. Hence I'd say your Photoshop observations seem to predict pixel shift nearly always having some effect on extending resolution, though unlikely to be 1.5x, certainly for any decent mtf.

Practically though, I'll agree that these chips yield a reasonably sharp 1280x720 image - it's the likelihood of any more than that I'll dispute. That's not to dispute the claims of those who say the 1080 mode of such as the HVX200 is sharper than the 720 mode - DVCProHD subsamples to 960x720 in 720p mode, 1280x1080 in 1080 mode - and I suspect what is being seen there is nothing to do with the 720/1080 factor as such, rather the 33% increase in horizontal resolution.

Which raises another interesting thought. The HMC150 and AVC-HD in 720 mode doesn't subsample - it records the full 1280x720 raster. Hence I suspect that the difference between 720 and 1080 with this camera will be far less marked than with DVCProHD. In fact, for a given bitrate, 720 may even look BETTER than 1080 as the compression will be less.

Hello Bob! Sorry to revisit this, but I've been given (almost by accident) what I now consider the definitive answer, and I'm afraid neither of us was quite right!

The 1.5x figure I'm told is reasonable (for luminance) for any pixel shift system, but it applies to the system in total. Hence, for 960x1080 chips with horizontal pixel shift, it's equivalent to luminance chips of about 1440x1080.

The confusion with the Panasonic implementation is because it applies in 2 dimensions. The 1.5x figure is still true - but shared between the dimensions. Now, the 50% gain corresponds to an effective increase in the number of equivalent pixels for luminance - from 0.5MP to 0.75MP - and because they are shared between h and v, the effective increase IN EACH DIMENSION is the square root of 1.5 - 1.22x.

Hence it's reasonable to consider the effective luminance resolution as that of a chip with dimensions about 1170x660. Well, pretty close to 1280x720.....!? I believe some measurements have shown resolved detail a bit higher than those figures, but looking at zone plate results, I'm pretty sure they are aliases.

Tim, I must agree with Paulo. The HPX170 seems to be the PERFECT solution to your stated objective, but only you can decide if it's worth the additional cost over the HMC150.

Hey Dwian,

I have decided to go with the HPX-500 and two HMC-150s.

Since my shooting will mainly be in 720p60, I don't thinkthe EX-1 will be that much better and the HMC-150 is a lot better for longer record times.

I am hoping to pull the trigger soon.

I too have decided on the HMC150 and I have had a pre-order in with my vendor since August 2nd. For my needs (industrial, light corporate and some broadcast) I am willing to put up with the transcoding workflow for now since hard drives are lot cheaper than P2 cards. While I have high hopes for a quick update from Apple to allow FCP to work with AVCHD footage natively, what about an Offline RT workflow with AVCHD? Has anyone ever considered this? It dawned on me yesterday that this MIGHT be the way to edit AVCHD on a less-than-buff computer system. I am currently editing on a Macbook Pro... I am all about figuring out how to edit HMC150 footage with "what I've got" :)

PS: I got a great price on the HMC150, anyone interested can PM me for details!

Darren,

I had also decided that a Panny HMC150 was the one for me when they announced the pricing ($3500 @ B&H).

I later changed my mind in favor of the Sony Z5U when it was anounced at $3800, but went right back to the 150 when Sony said that there was a typo and the Z5U was really $5000.

The problem when we try to figure out the factor and the equivalent resolution to use is that detail comes in three different forms: (1) Horizontal Only/Vertical Only Detail (2) Diagonal Detail and (3) Detail in BOTH Vertical and Horizontal Axes at the same time.


The simpler solution is to just look at the images and judge from there....

At 1280x720, the images seem sharp. If we compare to other cameras in the same price range, nothing will jump out as far as a major difference in sharpness.

At 1920x1080, the images look OK, but a comparison shows that the images of the HMC-150 appear to be softer than other cameras in the same price range.


There are other factors to consider, but as far as resolution, I think it's safe to say that the HMC-150 does a very nice 720p.


Bob Diaz

Bob, Which cameras are you referring to "in the same price range?" Canon XH-A1? Sony V1U?

The simultaneously-introduced HDR-FX1000 is $3200 + around $1000 for the HVR-MRC1K recording unit which places it in a similar price bracket as the HMC150...

The FX1000 is a $3000+ "prosumer" camcorder, basically a Z5U w/o XLR inputs and the ability to attach the HVR-MRC1K recording unit.

In this price range, the HMC150 is still the best value. My only caveat is the need for a properly powered (in my case) Mac to efficiently and effectively edit AVCHD with Final Cut.

Don't worry. This camera is ahead of computers/software at the moment but that'll change.

"If we build it they will come" - Field of Dreams

:)

By the way, I spoke to Panasonic's HMC150 Product Manager Monday (Sept. 22) and he assured me that the first HMC150's are currently in the U.S. clearing customs. They should hit the first retailers by 9/25

UPDATE: My rep called me today to let me know they received the HMC150's today (Tues Sept. 23) and mine has been shipped to me. Should arrive Thursday. I will keep everyone posted on its arrival

The list of cameras I was thinking about are:

Canon XH-A1
Sony V1u
JVC HD-110U

If we use B&H's prices to compare, they all fall within several hundred $ close to the HMC-150's price.


Bob Diaz

Yes, the XH-A1 is still an outstanding performer. My experience with the V1U was not as good. It struggles in low light with its first generation CMOS technology. I've not used the 110U, the 720p only kind of scares me even though that is what I plan to shoot 99% of the time with the HMC150 :)

In Stock at B&H
 

You have probably all seen ...

The Panasonic AG-HMC150 is finally IN STOCK at B&H.

Are you going to make use of that with an external hard drive capture device, by any chance? Or directly to laptop somehow?

If it doesn't increase the size of what I have to lug around too much, I'd love a good, affordable & portable 4:2:2 solution.

Man, that'd be ideal... and with the 3CCDs, I imagine the colour would be nicer than what the EX1 gives, too. I <3 the almost 60s era color of the HVX. I think I'm starting to admit to myself that I love good color more than I love a little extra resolution. :)