Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Well the only reason I feel there are rules, is because everyone else acts like their are rules. If someone says I did something incorrect in filmmaking, than that implies to me that there must be rules. Because if there are no rules, then there would be no incorrectness. Unless I am wrong?

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

The only rule in filmmaking is that there are no rules.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Ryan, it seems to me that's a rather binary view: right or wrong. There is a range of possibilities that are less than perfect. In fact there may be no "perfect" that works in every case. People are simply suggesting things that have worked for them in various circumstances. If you find that a lot of the suggestions are similar, they probably indicate good advice to try. I don't know whether that's the same as "rules"; I guess that's a matter of definition. You might not get arrested if you don't follow the suggestions. But if you do follow them, you might have less frustration and more success than you seem to have had in the past.

As I've suggested before, it's a shame you can't find someone in your area who has been somewhat successful, and in some way work on their crew, or apprentice with them, for a year. Perhaps you'd see a lot of this practical way of dealing with common situations, and it would become more intuitive to you.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Oh okay. Well I have helped people out on there productions, but I feel I cannot do things the way they do them. For example, one filmmaker I helped out on two features so far, he shoots all his scenes multicamera, and gets things done a lot faster that way.

But I don't feel I could shoot that way for example. There is also another filmmaker I helped out but her way of working is very different than what I think would work for me. So I feel I may have to come up with my own way of working, compared to others, unless I should try things like the multicam style for example...

He also shot a whole scene guerilla style in a public place without permission but he used telephoto lenses, so people wouldn't know he was shooting a scene because the scene was much further away. But he used lav mics, which would cost more than my boom mic I already have, which I was hoping to work with instead, since I payed for it...

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Actually one filmmaker I am helping with on his first feature film was funded by investors, and given over 2 million dollars so far to make it. And that got me thinking maybe I should apply for funding as well, because I didn't think someone who has only made a couple of short of films could get 2 million. He has to co-direct as a result of the funding, but trying to see funding from investors a good idea, even if it means you have to co-direct?

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

I think you're failing to understand WHY he got funding. It was probably because his body of work prior to that film showed that he knew what he was doing to the extent that others were willing to invest in him, betting on making more money out of it. He may also have shown them a "prospectus" (look it up).

Unfortunately, all of your work so far has demonstrated exactly the opposite and I highly doubt you would be able to get funding in any amount that way.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

I only saw one of his short films before, I didn't think the acting in it was any better than mine, same with the camera and lighting work, which is why I was surprised. However, I only saw that one short of his so far. But maybe they were willing to fund him in spite of just the one short because they liked the script enough. And maybe they thought that the director would do a much better job, if the funding gives him and us more actors to choose from a more DPs to choose from, on a bigger budget.

But I was also wondering, is it worth it to get funding, if it means you are co-directing with someone else, they give you?

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Part of getting funding is selling yourself and the script, also having the right contacts within your network. They will also like the script and believe that there's a market for a film from that script.

They will ignore the acting in a short and the technical aspects to a certain extent if they like they way the director told the stroy. The technical aspects will be overcome because there will be a professional crew working on the film and the funders will have their executive producer(s) having oversight.

You may find the the people who worked on their shorts won't get the same jobs on the feature film. That's often the case when a proper funding falls into place. From the sounds of it they didn't believe he had enough experience, so they got a co director.

I know someone who got to write and direct a feature film (through Working Title) after one short and they didn't have to co-direct, However, they had the support of a producer who os now an A list executive producer in LA.

If you want to have a career as a film director you may have to play the politics and have a co-director for a first feature.

All you've shown in your above messages are your limitations. I don't understand why you can't shoot multi camera, since that makes a lot of sense if you've got a limited schedule, It's not more complicated than shooting single camera and isn't unusual on major feature films.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

People get funding when they complete a package of documents that convince a panel it's a worthy project. The ingredients of a project are not considered because the budget buys these in. The idea, the purposes and the individual at looked at very very closely.

Why would a successful application need you? If he has the budget, he gets the best people, the best technical package and the best support to make it. What would you bring to the table? That skills audit you refuse to do comes up again.

You sadly have raised your expectations so high your abilities cannot keep up. You refuse to even consider anything negative. We constantly try to reign back your crazy ideas and ground you into getting the basic right, but you sweep these suggestions away and move on to the next idea, well outside your competence. Have you got any film making roles left to misunderstand?

You see another film maker getting funding but cannot understand why? We can! Until you can see it yourself, we really cannot help. I thought you realised your limitations and merely didn't wish to talk about them. Now I realise that sadly, you have still not realised that your quest to be a film-maker is limited by your ability and most importantly, your understanding of the entire business.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Oh okay, I thought investors would most likely go by past work, rather than how you fill out the documents, so to speak. I am guessing he wants to still work with me because of our prior working relationship perhaps.


I have no problem working with a co-director if I was asking for funding, it's just I was told on here before, working with a co-director is a bad idea. I also thought I could not shoot multi-camera, because it would cost more money for more camera operators, and I was told on here before that it would cost more money, unless it would not?

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

When costing you need to include the cost of the whole crew during the extra days you're filming if using a single camera.

Co-director relationships vary, they may not in practice be covering the same aspects of the job. Given your messages in the forums, it would probably end up with the other person doing the directing.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

I can not do any 'co' role with my wife. It is impossible. We do things so differently, by different methods, and very different routes that whenever we try to do almost anything together it causes conflict - I either end up doing 100% or she does, because that's how for us it works. We split things, and in 40 yrs marriage, it's worked brilliantly. If we had to work together it would be disaster!

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Yeah that's what I thought, it's just others said it more cameras and operators would cost more, so I thought that was true, if that's what others filmmakers with that experience said. And I am open to co-directing, it's just I thought it wouldn't work out based on what others said before, when I suggested the idea. I don't think it would be the other person doing all the directing if that was the case.

But I can try to apply for funding, if that's more do-able than I thought it may have been, based on this other filmmaker's experience with it so far.

As for multicameras, I may only be ablet use two though, because the third one will be seen in a lot of the shots, if I were to use three. Unless I really change the shots around, but I feel a lot of them may be compromised if I do that, to fit a third camera in.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Of course two more cameras and operators will cost more, assuming you're actually paying them, Your filmmakers seem to have limited experience, but to get the same coverage with one camera is going to take more time than shooting with one camera, In professional film making time is money.

There is a compromise in using more than one camera, in that one camera may be in a less ideal position.. However, from what I've seen in your films, it won't make that much difference, since they're more TV than cinema.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Ryan your movies suffer from more fundamental problems that multi cameras wouldn't fix.

Given the right situation it can be viable approach. Even with a small cast and crew of 6 people paid at paltry sum of $100 day ($600 x 10 days = $6,000). Renting a second camera would quickly pay for itself by reducing your film time. Even if it didn't save you money it be easier on your cast and might be the difference between being able to film a scene before getting kicked out of a location or before the light changed.

In your case I don't think you could handle the added complexity, additional camera operator, syncing, framing, matching exposure/white balance, etc.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Oh okay. Well I would have to try to make sure that both camera operators have the cameras on the same white balance and exposure settings. As for syncing, wouldn't the syncing be the same, but just with one more camera? Why would syncing be more difficult? I would just be syncing two cameras to sound instead of one, but is that much more difficult?

Looking at my shots, though, I would have to move the second camera over in some shots not to be seen, so it would be not as ideal but maybe it would be worth it...

However, with two cameras, the actors are doing less takes. Say for example, an actor does five takes in the master shot, and then 5 takes in an MCU. That's 10 takes. But if we have two cameras, and the goal is to save time, then they are only doing the same five takes for both the master and the MCU. So by saving time that way, they would only be doing half the takes, and I wonder, if the performances would suffer from multicamera therefore?

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

We've been over this before. In some situations multi camera have more benefits. For example car chase or fight you can capture two views without re doing it. With a conversation you could have each camera over the shoulder of each person, or cu over the shoulder of one and medium 3/4 shot of both. When you get the best performance/take you don't need to redo it to get the medium or close up shot if you were filming with one camera. Just because you have two cameras doesn't mean you always use them. You can pick your places where it makes sense.

Under changing lighting brightness and color temp outdoors you have to pay particular attention that the cameras are of similar exposure/white balance. Often it can be fixed in post but it's more work you'll have twice the footage to sort through that needs to be labeled and organized.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Oh okay, I didn't think I would have twice the footage to go through in post, because if I were to use one camera for all the shots, then it would still be the same amount of footage, just all taken with one camera, instead of 2 or 3, wouldn't it?

I am thinking about the OTS shots, but wouldn't the camera be seen in the shots though, if you use two? The other filmmaker I worked with who used multicameras, never did OTS shots, that I recall, so I don't have any experience there. But I thought you would still see the cameras in the OTS shots. For example, in this scene, with two OTS shots, wouldn't you see the camera in the shots, if they used two cameras simultaneously?

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

I'm not sure why you would think that. Think about where the cameras would be for those opposing OTSes: same side of "the line", one pointing toward him, one toward her. Think of what each cam's field of view looks like. Draw a diagram if you have to...no problem keeping out of each other's shots.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Oh okay, because even if I draw the diagram, one camera is behind one actors shoulder, and the outher is behind the other's shoulder. Therefore in the opposite shots, you would see the camera behind them, wouldn't you? Looks that way to me anyway, even if I draw it out. But this also depends on what kind of OTS shot too perhaps.

I think in ones like these you would see the camera behind the actor, wouldn't you?


Where as in ones like this, you wouldn't it?

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

It's not literally right over the shoulder, it's off to one side enough to stay out of the shot. It may not work in all situations...the more looking toward the lens axis, the closer in (closer the "shoulder" actor) the cam has to be. So yes, if you want opposing OTSs with multicam then you're going to compromise the eyelines some, making it more "profile-y" than what you can get away with using a single cam. However, with focal length, camera position, framing and even cheating the actors (they may appear in each shot to be directly across from each other and in reality be diagonal), you can probably get away with it.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

You don't always have to have wide lenses and have cameras in close Ryan. Do you watch TV? You can shoot drama with maybe 6 cameras and keep them all out of shot. If you got cameras in shot, you put them in the wrong places. PS - you're also VERY keen on your over the shoulder shots, but yours never seem to look like these ones?

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Oh okay. And I do like using shots where actors are looking close to the lens, I am not a fan of profile shots for the most part. But maybe it can still work. One idea is, you won't see the cameras if they are farther enough back which means using telephoto lenses, or longer lenses at least, but those would cost more, and I think the locations might not always have enough room for that, but may still work the cameras may not be seen, if I am willing to not have the actors look so close to the lens perhaps.

As for watching TV and how they keep the cameras out of the shots, the problem with that is, is that the shots are very compromised. When you watch a show like Seinfeld for example, they are very limited to where they can put the camera, or so it seems, as they constantly re-use the same shots over and over. Isn't that because it would mean seeing a camera in another shot, if they do not stick to those same shots, over and over?

As for why my over the shoulder shots do not look like the ones in Public Enemies, I will have to pay closer to attention to Public Enemies when designing the shots now.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

It’s hard to believe that OTS has to be explained to you. You over think everything and make problems where none exist. You asked where you could use multiple cameras and then you proceed to find problems at every turn.

A reoccurring issue with all your movies is that your actors don’t act natural. In an OTS setup they interact as they normally would instead of talking to a camera. Like always you fail to identify what’s important and instead get stuck on rules or copying scenes from other movies.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Well why does it have to be explained? I thought that the cameras would be in each others shots, and I used that Public Enemies example. Are you sure they would not be in those shots, in that example, or what am I not understanding that has to be explained?

Another thing is, when it comes to wider shots, it seems like it will be more challenging for the cameras not to show. There is one scene I storyboarded so that it's two wide shots, where one actor is behind a desk, and he is talking to three other characters, on the other side of the desk. For one shot, the camera will be behind his head, facing the three actors, and the other shot is the opposite, where it's behind the three actors, facing him. But I think that both cameras are going to be seen if I use two, because they are wide shots.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

You would simply frame tighter to avoid the other camera from getting in the shot. It’s commonly used in interviews, tv and movies and it doesn’t seem to be a problem. I’m not here to walk through every scene in your movie and tell you when and if it’s appropriate. Likewise it’s immaterial what big budget movies do. Base your decisions on the factors of your own situation.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Yeah it's just that I don't like framing tighter, because it may not make the shot look as good. However, maybe I should do it to shoot multicamera and save time. So I guess it depends on what is more important, the shots looking better, without it, or saving time.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Shooting multi camera purely to save money isn’t a good idea. You have to be comfortable with it. Maybe you should use it to film a short to explore it rather than talking about it. Closer framing isn’t good or bad it’s just different.

Big budget films use a wider aspect ratio for a theater screen and that width needs to be filled with something. The Skyfall scene you posted the location has depth and complexity that adds interest, therefore a wider shot is used. So that’s why you shouldn’t base your framing decisions on feature films when your circumstances are the opposite. If your location lacks complexity, if you have barebones cast, you should be filming to hide those deficits.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Oh okay, well I was using those examples, as to where the camera position would be. Those two examples, Skyfall and Public Enemies, the movies were shot in 2.39:1 though, where as I plan on shooting in 1.85:1, I was thinking, but the camera positions would still have a same issue possibly, than if I want to go more in front of the face, it risks the camera being seen in the other shot I thought.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

When you've got time limitations you're often forced into making compromises in order to get the shots you require. You don't always get your wish list.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Yeah that's true. Well when it comes to getting funding from an investor but the other person is paired with a co-director, how do they decide which director does which tasks, usually?

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

You said the guy youd worked with who’d gotten funding, that his storytelling was good and there were other things lacking. So in that case perhaps the co-director is handling the actors.

In your case unfortunately, youve been criticized for storytelling, technical skills, and actors’ performances, so there really are no strengths for a co-director to complement, only weaknesses for them to compensate for, making it likely, as has been said, that you would be forced out of directing your own film.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Oh well I thought that if I had more of a crew, that the technical skills part could be covered better there. I feel I would do a better job of directing the crew, compared to the actors, so maybe the co-director could direct the actors, but that is just what I think.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

I don't know that "directing the crew" is an actual thing.

A film director is known for three things...the overall vision of the movie, directing the camera(s), and honing the actors' performances.

Based on what we've seen here, none of those are areas where you're strong.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Oh okay, but I thought I could be stronger in the vision if I had a more experienced DP, with more equipment though, as well as more production design options. Wouldn't a better DP and production design benefit me more, or no? I feel that I would do better if I made the cinematography and production design decisions, and the editing and music and sound decisions, where as the other director could perhaps do the acting side of things, but that is just what I feel would work best.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Here's a question for you Ryan. When you watch poorly directed movie do you think if only he had a more experience dp I would think he's a good director?

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

I usually don't think too much about what went wrong in other movies if I find they are poor.

Well why do I have to be the DP as well? I thought that if I had a better DP the movie would look a lot better and since I was told the cinematography was a problem. Is is the problem perhaps me and I just need to direct the DP I have better and it's not the choice of DP that counts?

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

We're trying to help you out by giving honest advice. But it seems like despite not being good at this it makes you happy so keep plugging away.

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

Oh well at the end of the day I feel like you just have to take all info, advice, and research you can, and do your best and go for it. But isn't that what you all did on your first feature, is just do your best and hope for the best?

Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
 

AGAIN, most people on here have not made a first feature or any feature cause folks here are primarily not filmmakers.