Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Are they just pointing a gun or sticking it into someone's face? Consider faking the gun into the shot, if the camera is closer, than the reality. .

Let the actors practice the fight scene, they can work out their timings. Trained professional actors are taught how to do fight scenes for their stage work, if you're doing serious fight scenes, get a fight arranger.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay as long as the training and timing is enough and I do not need compression to sell the hits.

The actor is suppose to be pointing a gun and aiming at someone further away. Like in the test clip I showed before at the beginning of the video:


That's the kind of shot I want, or at least a close up of the shooter's face, as he shoots someone. When you say consider faking the gun into the shot, what do you mean by 'faking'? How would I do that?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Unfortunately, those shots look flat and rather boring, I would think again.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Ryan you keeping posting that clip to prove your point about compression but I think it does the opposite. I couldn’t say which angle of view was better and neither would an average viewer. I agree with Brian seems flat and unappealing. Learn to trust what you see rather than trying to impose rules.

You seem to be stuck on this compression thing and are misusing it. Like others pointed out many of your examples like the gun could be filmed a different way. Profile of the gun would work better. Knowing you, you’ve lifted it from a movie and locked into one way to film it. You remind me of inexperienced students who construct an over thought explanation to defend why it “should” work.

Using compression to try to cover up people who can’t pull off a proper fight scene...

Like I said before start by getting the 3 standard primes (wide, medium, long) and forget about these odd scenarios you’ve convinced yourself you need a super telephoto.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh well the reason I wanted to show the face from in front during the gunshots is because profile is more from the side, and you get a different type of emotion with profile from the side more compared to the front. The front you get a different perspective of the character which I am going for and feel that would be better.

For the OTS shot, I want two characters to be really close and intimate and a longer lens will bring them really close and intimate in an OTS perpective. If I use a wider lens for the OTS shot, it will make them further apart, and less intimate.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

You don't need a long lens for the shot to be intimate, unfortunately, the current long lens idea creates the opposite impression, because you can sense the camera is distant to the participants.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

What I mean is, is that the characters look closer together, which is more important intimacy wise, than how far back the camera is. But I still need to be zoomed in close, to not only have them closer together, but to see their face emotion more.

I'm just trying to use my own instincts, when coming up with the shots, as to what I feel is best, and I should do that, right? I mean it was said on here that I should make my own decisions sometimes, so isn't it good that I am calling the shots, on the shotlist?

But I did suggest alternative ideas before, if I am not to use the telephoto lens. What about those alternatives? For example, what if I showed the front of the face during the gunshot, without showing the gun, cause the gun would be past the camera in that case? Would that work, if I don't use a telephoto?

Or what about faking the compression during the OTS shot?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

There are many factors in a scene that are going to effect the how the audience will feel. You’ve taken one factor, angle of view, more specifically compression, inferred it creates intimacy, when I’m not convinced it does, and raised this expected effect far beyond that is reasonable.

Maybe you should research all the factors that create intimacy. You might be surprised to find out compression isn’t one of them. Did it ever occur to you position the actors closer together?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay, I mean I am describing the shot out of context, so maybe it context of the movie it would make more sense.

Yes, it occurred to me to move the actors closer. What about on the example video I posted, where I tried to move the actors closer together and cheat it? Should I just do that instead?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Unless the scene is intrinsically intimate, though the closeness of the characters and their relationship for good or bad, a lens isn't going imply anything. Bear in mind that the audience is also part of this and need to sense their intimacy with the characters, perhaps to the point of discomfort and not wanting to be there.

Long lenses can give a sub conscious sense of voyeurism unless you're careful.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh but I wanted that sense of voyeurism too, since it's a thriller. Perhaps that is why I like those kind of shots, for this type of story, but couldn't find the word.

But I can rethink that OTS shot and think about alternatives.

What about the idea I had for wanting to see an extreme close up of the shooter's face as he shoots? If I use a shorter lens, and not a telephoto, what if I just cut to a close up of his face, as he shoots, but you do not see the gun in front of his face, cause the camera is closer to his face than the gun is. Would that work, instead of using a telephoto for an extreme close up?

Here is an example. What if when cutting to the close up of the shooter's face, I just don't show the gun, like this:

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Thrillers aren't usually limited to telephoto lens shots, they can be rather limiting and yours seem more televisual than cinematic in nature.

We don't know the scene, the nature of the characters etc, so asking for asking for comment is difficult,To me they suggest some sort of mental issue with the character with the gun, emotionally distant - isolated. However, I don't know if that's your intention or if I'm just reading something into the person's face, regardless of the lens being used.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay well I am going by my own instincts, and not going off of television. Just trying to to use my instincts for what is best for the shot.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Well I talked to a DP I might hire, and he said we can make a 85mm lens, look like a 200mm, in terms of compression. He said we will just used forced perspective, kind of like what I was doing in my examples.

Is the DP right though, and forced perspective will work?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

An 85mm lens makes more sense, a 200mm doesn't do anything for the dramatic content of the scene.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay, so we should just force the perspective then, like he said?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

I don't think it will need much forcing, but yes.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay, but that is what I did before in the previous examples, and I was told before on here, that the forced perspective does not work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...d2u2FohXWbi1Zk

Unless it can work if we do it better?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

It's your call, you're the director.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Okay thanks, but I've been told on here before that pretty much everything I ask about and can it be done, is wrong, or cannot be, which is why I asking, if I would be making the wrong decision again...

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

As previously stated, we know nothing about the scene, Depending on the factors involved it may work, it just risks being very flat looking if you've got someone standing against a wall.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay, they won't be standing against a wall in the scene. For that test shot, I just had to have someone stand against the wall, cause in order to zoom in to 200mm to get that compression, they had to stand against one end of the room, while I was on the other side, in order to get the lens far back enough while zoomed in.

But when we shoot the actual scene, location is going to be much bigger, so they won't have to stand against a wall therefore, and there will be separation in the background. Plus if we fake compression than the room size won't be much of an issue either.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Your test was pretty worthless in that case, since you're not placing the subject in the correct context. The wall is so overbearing it gives an incorrect visual impression of the scene as a whole.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh yeah, I wasn't going to have a wall near the actor at all like that. The purpose of the test was to ask for opinions on of the forced perspective works. Not the background context. I just wanted to know if the gun in perspective to the face looks convincing, and if the actors faking the forced perspective with how far away from each other in the OTS shot worked. I had no choice but to shoot against a wall cause when I compared with the telephoto lens, I need like 30 feet of room to zoom in on the actor, thereby forcing the actor to be up against a wall for that distance. But when we actually shoot, the location will not be that restricted, and they will not be up against a wall like that. Sorry for confusion. I was just asking if the forced perspective would work, if one could read between the lines, and forget about the wall in the background.

So does that mean all the input before is invalid now, if the background was what was being thought about?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Shooting with telephoto lens indoors is very restrictive, so, unless in a very large building, it's best avoided because of the limitations. It's also time consuming, so unless shooting a commercial or a particular moment, the standard range of focal lengths work best. You can easily shoot an entire drama with a single lens in the 32mm to 50mm range, it's a lot more difficult and restricting with a 200mm.

Context matters with a shot, you're obsessing about a detail that gets lost within the scene as a whole. What works in one location may not work in another.

We can't macro manage your lens selection, this is a job for you and your DP, possibly on the day the scene is being filmed.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh well I was going to use a large location. Since it is a chase and stand off scene, I was going to shoot in a large location for that, where there would be room for a few telephoto shots. I didn't want every shot to be a telephoto shot, just a few during the chase and the more suspenseful moments, during it.

But I can do force perspective, for those shots, if that's better.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Use whatever works in a particular circumstance or dramatic moment.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

You also seem to be using terms very oddly. Suddenly we stop talking about compression and start talking about perspective. Your ‘compression’ is just one artefact of different perspectives. Compression or foreshortening is a feature you can use or not, a choice. I simply don’t understand why you hear a phrase, talk about it as essential and then use a clip that shows it used poorly. Can you not see the problems with it? With single camera operation surely this is a blocking task and a sensible lens. You mentioned emotion. The use of a long lens doesn’t create emotion, ever! The composition and the acting, script and location create emotion. The camera and lens just collect it intact and can enhance it. In your clip the only emotion generated is the awkwardness of the shot. Given a small budget to buy glass, long lenses are bottom of my list in usefulness.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Forced perspective is more an art direction thing, commonly used on sets to make them look bigger, when they're constructed in a smaller studio.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_perspective

Or fooling the viewer regarding the relative size of objects.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh well as far as using the term oddly, I know what it is, and how it is used, it's just the DP used it describe faking the compression and said the term was forced perspective, and he was applying it to this as well.

If the telephoto lenses don't add anything, what if for the shot of the gunman's face, I just use a close up of the face, but with the camera close to the face, so you don't have to see the gun? Like this:


Just cut to a close up of the face, but don't see the gun in front of it. Would this be a better choice?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

I think this is an editing decision regarding if you cut to the gun and then the BCU..

You're asking for us to comment on what is a really poor set of shots that you keep repeating.

You're the director, it's up to you to decide if these work within the context of your scene,

It's a scene that we know nothing about.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay. I was told by one other so far that the shot looks weird cause we need to see the gun in front of the face in order to tell there is one, otherwise it looks confusing.

If that's the case, then I will have to get the gun in front of the face during a close up of the face, which means either forced perspective or a much longer lens then it seems... If he is right that it would look confusing without seeing the gun. I was only calling it forced perspective though, cause that is the term the DP used, if that is correct.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Surely if you need the face with the gun you just adjust the actor and camera position to make it work. Why do you need to create something that doesn’t really need creating. This would be a good use of a storyboard frame? You need the audience to see the detail in the face and to know he has a gun? Can this be two shots rather than something contrived and weird looking? Like in the closeup he drops his eyes down to reveal in the next shot, the gun held in his hand. Nicer to watch.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

If the gun is established in a wider shot the audience will know where and how the gun is being held.

A forced perspective shot would have a larger version of the gun made by the art department in the foreground instead of the real gun.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh I was just told that if I show a close up of the face without the gun in front of it, that it's confusing, cause now the audience is going to ask, where did the gun go, or at least that is what I was told. Does it look like that in the clip I posted?

The gun is there in front of him in the wide shot, but then you don't see in it in the close up? Does that cause confusion?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

No, not if it appears that you're closer than the gun.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay then. Cool. I can either do that and move closer than the gun, or have the gun in front of the face, and used forced perspective then.

Another thing is, it was said on here before, that even if the scene is well light, I will still need fast lenses just in case. However, the DP asked, said that fast lenses would be a mistake for horror/action scenes, cause I am going to want more DOF when there is a lot of action going on.

Does he have a point, or should I just use fast lenses, and live with all shallow DOF during the action scenes then?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

No he isn’t right. The iris on a fast lens can be closed down just as much as a slow lens so it’s very flexible where as a slow lens can’t be opened up in low light. We’ve already been over this.

You’re also constantly doing things at cross purposes. You insist on shooting with super telephotos for it’s ability to compress but it also yields a shallow dof. You then insist you want deep focus. While closing down the iris will increase the dof it will still yield a relatively shallow dof.

You keep insisting you need compression, but I’ve explained it’s unnecessary especially the way you are mis using it. You haven’t given a good reason to use compression.You have very bad instincts when comes to visual story telling. What you keep showing us looks disjointed and bad. All you can think about is compression all the while you are failing at the basics.

Stop with this compression nonsense!

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Don't you read the messages in this thread?

Fast lenses has been answered earlier in the thread,

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Yes I know, I guess I am just scared to use them because of such shallow DOF to work with, but will try get more comfortable. Plus I feel it would make the focus puller's job a lot harder, and I want to make it easier.