Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

This depends on if you're using basically using the street lamps for lighting the background, which you can do these days. With "Dirty Harry" they were using 100 ASA film, which they possibly could force develop a stop to give 200ASA, so using street lighting for part of your lighting was more difficult. You could use the small number of fast lenses like the Angénieux f0.95 50mm, but the options were a lot more limited compared to today. However, "Dirty Harry" was shot with Panavision C series anamorphic lenses, which are T2.3 to T3, depending on the lens.

Yes, you can do it the same thing as in the park scene, but you'll need a generator. With today's more sensitive sensors, you may get away with 2k or 5k fresnel spots

With the BlackMagic, I would go for 2k lamps for the street and try to get mains tie ins at a building, allowing for the power limitations you have in N. American wall sockets,. You should get an electrician to do this, neither that or get a generator. This will allow you to either use the street lighting or just let that lighting drop off towards darkness, if just using close shots.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay thanks. I can use more than the streetlight, I just don't think I could light a whole park I'm guessing. However, the problem with fast lenses, is since I am shooting a horror thriller type genre, with a chase and fight, through the park, I am going to want to have more than one actor in focus at a time, right? So would fast lenses be an option therefore? I was also hoping to shoot on telephoto lenses, to pan with the characters during and get much longer pan tracking on them, if that's possible as well, which also means probably not a fast lens, I am guessing, if I want a deeper DOF for the actors?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Longer focal length lenses are slower, so you need more light.

If you don't have the resources don't come up shooting plans that you can't do, that's where creativity comes in. The best ideas are often the result of overcoming restrictions or limitations..

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Okay thanks. I was wondering if the Dirty Harry method was creative for this type of shooting though, since those scenes do not light the entire scene, and a lot of the location is left dark? If that method will work for not wanting to use fast lenses?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Not Lighting the entire scene is the creative approach. The darkness shows Harry as being isolated in a place that he (and we) can't see what's around him; the unknown is more scary than the known.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Okay thanks. I did a couple of tests at night with lights on my Canon T2i. The ISO starts to look bad when you go over 800, it seems, so at that ISO, I can put the aperture at 2.2 it can still look overall good, with lights at night. However, would a blackmagic have a high enough quality ISO, that I could open around maybe f5.6 at least or deeper?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

What difference is that extra couple of stops doing for you? I suspect you'll need to try the camera to find this one out. I doubt the published spec will help in this case.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

You mean what different is 5.6 doing for me than 2.2? I just figure the deeper the DOF the better, and wonder if there is a camera with a higher ISO, where the DOF can be pushed more.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

If you use a higher ISO you will get more noise in the shadows. I'm not sure why you want 5.6, although I do know a DP who used that stop with 400 ASA film,. However, I suspect it's because he was used to using 100ft candles as a lighting level, which gives f2,8 on 100 ASA film. If you want a deeper DOF and have limited funds, the Blackmagic pocket cinema camera may be worth checking out. How much noise is acceptable varies from person to person, so it's up to you to test this, There are reviews of the BlackMagic cameras online, so the information is out there, but it's up to you to decide if you can live with the noise.

A point to in mind with the "Dirty Harry" footage is that in the cinema you probably saw some detail in the shadows of the park scene, while in the YouTube it's black. YouTube videos are highly compressed, so shouldn't be used for comparing cameras/lighting other than in a very general sense. One high end has TIFF files for its camera and lighting tests, so that users can what is reality going on.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay thanks. Well I was trying to ball park how much deep DOF I may need bare minimum, so f5.6 was a ball park. However, the Sony A7s II has a really good ISO, but do the blackmagic pocketcams have ISO that good? I shot a scene once for a project with the Sony A5s II at night on a lit street, at F11 and it still looked good with the ISO that high. But can you do that with a blackmagic pocketcam?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

The pocket cinema camera won't be as sensitive, but it has a deeper DOF you're after that - it has a smaller sensor. It also has a more robust codec, it really depends on what you want to do in post and the funds you've got available.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Yep that's true I like the smaller sensor. Is there a camera out there that has as good of ISO as the Sony A7s II, but with a cropped sensor size?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

No, the physics would be against that. The Sony A7s II is probably more of a documentary camera, especially for productions that work at extremely low light levels at night, such some BBC documentaries about the universe or their "Sky at Night" programmes.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

My current cameras for theatre work are my two JVC ⅓" chip 750s. I've used these types now for quite a few years, 100, 200 and not got the budget at the moment for the 800. Every review tells how awful these are at low light and how useless they are for stage work. I have never had issues with these at all, and just proves to me that specs on paper can hide true performance. With no dialled in gain, they hover around 4/5.6 but even in a very dim scene with the lens wide open they manage really well. On paper, the results ought to be very noisy.

See if any of the dealers will loan you one, or buy from somewhere who offers returns and try the BM out. It could be perfect for you.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

In some ways a night scene is no different from any other, it needs to be properly lit and then most any modern camera will work.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay, I don't mind lighting at night, it's just the wide establishing shots, I have trouble with, cause if you back up the lights far enough for those, than they no longer work anymore. If I wanted to light a building at night for example, lighting the whole building for an establishing shot, is the problem. Close ups I can light, I just have trouble with wide establishing shots, hence why I thought a camera with a higher ISO, might be better... But I need the light to match, so if I move it closer for the close up, compared to the wides, than won't the audience notice, hey how come the lights are brighter for the camera in the close ups... So I have to have them in the same place as the wides to match, I figure?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

These are all good questions but if you really are going to hire dp he's the one who needs to figure this out maybe when you're looking for someone qualified these would be a good questions.

Lighting the building is the easiest since many buildings use landscape lighting to light the facade. Obviously you'd either pickup these lights at a home improvement store or set up fresnel lights hidden in the bushes... One of the issues you probably haven't thought about is powering any of these lights, since most likely there will be no outlet to plug into which would mean running a generator, sure there a battery operated lights but powerful ones are expensive.

You also have to understand that big budget commercial movies have all sort of lighting solutions that you won't have. I was watching a behind the scenes of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and there was a highway shot where there was 20 mobile crane lights (20ft high) lining the road for a night scene.

That being said this is something you are going to need to research and ask people with working knowledge of approaches that you can afford.

Let’s be realistic there isn't going to be a lot you can do for wide angle shots, maybe a few strategic placed fresnels on key areas. This is where experience and creativity are going to come in to play. If you don’t have the camera and lights to experiment with I wouldn’t spend too much time playing what if. My take is you’ll need use fresnel for shaped side lighting for close ups that match what you expect from street lights and when you pull back wide the viewer will not be aware the closeup lighting isn’t there.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Shooting wide shots at night is a lot easier than it used to be, especially compared to the 1970s, when some films didn't have big Hollywood style lighting rigs, yet managed to pull off daring stuff.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Yeah for sure. I am revising the story of the script, cause I need locations that are going to work for a DP, lighting wise, so I am trying to write a story to fit these locations. Just not sure if they would work, since I need more ISO, than what I have now on the current camera. But I am just trying to write for what I think might work at night, location wise, at this point, but not sure, what will.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

For a drama don't go for anything that requires more the 1500 ISO. Assuming you;re not going to go for f11, that will capture a wide range of buildings and locations, assuming you're shooting in an urban environment.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay, but for the telephoto lens shots, won't I need f11 for those shots though?. It's a thriller, where during the night scenes, a character is being chased by other characters, but wanted to use the telephoto lens to pan with the actors as they run, just for those shots, if possible.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

I've shot at f2.8 with telephoto lenses. f11 tends to be more a bright day stop. If you want deep focus, don't use telephoto lenses. What you want and what is practical can be two different things. You can get the actors to run in an arc instead of a straight line, so that you don't need to pull focus. The camera lies wonderfully.

Directors come up things that are easy in their heads. but in practice are hit or miss in reality and require quite a few takes to nail.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Ryan and his obsession with telephoto lenses, maybe he should be an astronomer instead

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay, thanks, I was wondering this as well, it's just the location I was going to use is not quite shaped in a way, to run like that, at least that running in arc, might not make narrative sense, but as long as the audience does not noticed, that the actors are running in an arc? Cause every time I try to trick the audience in the camera, in the past, they spot the trick. And I feel if I have the character running in an arc, the audience will say "hey, why is that character running in an arc, it makes no sense, when being chased". I guess I am just skeptical it would work, since when I tried cheating things like that in the past, it didn't work. But I can try.

However, the telephoto lens will not open wider than F5.6 though. The rental store also does not have a telephoto lens that can open that wide either, and I don't want to order lenses since that can cause scheduling problems. Is there a way I can make it work with what I have and shoot at a lens that cannot open wider than f5.6 and just get a camera with a really good ISO to compensate?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Ryan - sometimes you have to just spend money and try things. You cannot learn all you need then go and hire something and expect it to go well. You buy a camera, hire a lens and shoot your movie first go on every item - you just cannot work like this.

The arc thing is simply not am problem at all. The audience only notice if you shoot it from the wrong angle. The point of the arc is to maintain the same distance from subject to lens. If you have the camera in this position then from the camera's viewpoint, they will look as if they are travelling left to right - the arc is hidden. Obvious from above, obvious to a camera at the side, but panning with a long lens, with the actors reasonably tight - it won't be seen as a mistake. If you cheat badly, people notice. So don't do it badly, do it well!

Choose your camera, get the lens, and budget for a couple of days and nights of learning how to use the combination. You don't know the depth of field you will get till you mate the two items and try them out and spend some time evaluating the shots. f5.6 might be perfectly workable and the image quality very usable, or not. We don't know,

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay thanks. It's just I don't want to buy the wrong camera and say this will not work at all, like I did with the wrong lens before, only to find out about the hidden catches later. That's why I wanted to rule out all the hidden catches in the blackmagic pocket camera, before I bought it. Every time I buy a new piece of equipment almost, there is a hidden catch and I think to myself, well I wish I would have caught that before buying it. So I want to catch them this time before buying. Or I could just buy the camera, and if I am not happy with the night ISO, return it and get my money back I suppose?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

There's always something hidden, especially if you don't have the funds to buy the accessories or the kit designed to do the job. The ISO is given in the specification, so you should know the ball park.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh well it's just that with ISO, the quality is not listed. For example on my camera, once you go over 800, it gets to be too much noise. But with the blackmagics do they list how far the ISO can before there is too much noise? Is the noise quality listed anywhere? It says the ISO goes up to 25600 on that camera, but at what point does the quality become unprofessional?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Extremely high ISOa are more for documentary type work, rather than dramas. Professional productions will use them, but it's unlikely in a drama unless it's for a particular look.

The noise will be more noticeable on a large screen. Having a quick look ISO 200 and 1250 would seem the range for the 4k Blackmagic pocket cinema camera regarding the noise levels. This would be the range I'd expect to use on a drama.

No one shoots night exteriors at f11 unless it's a model.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay thanks. Well if I want to use a telephoto lens that only opens up to f5.6 then, is there a camera with a high enough ISO, that is good enough quality to support that? Or what if I just shot it with high gain at night, like The French Connection did?

In The French Connection, they said they shot with high ASA film stock, cause they didn't have a lot of light at night, and even though it's a drama, could I use that type of documentary style then therefore? I was also told by another filmmaker to get the GH5 maybe instead or a camera like that, cause he said you can go up to 12800, and it will still look pretty good, if he is right on that camera?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Ryan - how many times must we say something before you believe it? You really ARE obsessed with long lenses. You are also getting obsessed with mimicing movies you like. It is a very flawed way of working. You are seriously considering the purchase/no purchase of a camera by one shot in one movie? All the good stuff you can shoot in it's lifespan discounted by a few seconds that will probably not work anyway.

This is likebuying a drone and learning how to work it for one shot - if the shot is critical, then get somebody in to do it.

You have an option to return the camera,so for goodness sake, use it!

I think we are all thinking the same - your night sequence is going to be awful. I'm sorry, but you have told us all about it, and we're not worrying about technicalities at all - we're thinking about how you will shoot it. You cannot imagine what the arc 'trick' will look like, you can't visualise what on the cheap night lighting will look like, and the script is being mangled to make it fit - like the mangling you did to the time movie when locations went astray and for some bizarre reason they ended up in a field?

Do you have that old saying "walk, don't run"? You constantly want to run and never walk anywhere - in fact you constantly want to run marathons. At what point do you stop and spend time getting better - at anything? You seem to jump from struggle to struggle, never stopping to master your craft. I also can't believe you spend time watching movies and remember short sequences from them to go back to and try to copy. So many of your examples are from movies I saw in the 70s - and I remember the story, but I certainly didn;t even remember the night scene in Dirty Harry. What on earth made you pick it out?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay but it's not just one shot. I can use telephoto lenses for several shots though. What made you think it was just one?

As for being inspired by len choice shots in other movies, is that really a bad thing? What's wrong with panning along with characters on a long lens? Sure other movies have done it, but is it so wrong to do it again?

I thought of Dirty Harry, because I was looking for movies where a lot of the night shots were dark in several sections of the shot. The reason why I was using older movies as examples, is because so many movies shot today, they are so brightly lit that I cannot compete with that. So I was using older movies as examples since they relied on less light it seems, at least in the examples I gave. As for the script being mangled, why is it mangled? And the thing is, I am told to come up with creative solutions, but every time I do, I am told it's not good and won't do. I thought of a camera with really high ISO to compensate, as a creative solution. But now I am told it wont do. So how am I suppose to think of creative solutions, when the technology, doesn't seem to support them, or what am I doing wrong?

Plus it was said on here before that I should come up with my own style of shooting rather than relying on other movies. So I try to come up with my own style, which does involve longer lenses for a lot of the shots, but then I am told I am obsessed with longer lenses. So how am I suppose to be come up with my own style, and not be too obsessed then?

As for walking, and not running, well what if instead of obsessing on how to get the shots, I just hire a DP, and leave it up to him/her then? Should I just do that and not worry about it so much? I am also not just purchasing a camera for one shot. I was told I should upgrade from my Canon T2i. Unless the Canon T2i is good to shoot at night on, with not the fastest lens and not the brightest lights?

Here's another idea though. I wanted telephoto lenses for compression in some shots as well. Such as an OTS shot where the actors are really close to each other, or a shot of someone pointing a gun, but making the gun look really close to the face. What if I just had the actor hold the gun really close to the face, and fake the compression. For example, here are some tests, of trying to fake the compression. Is this a workable solution, to getting these types of shots?

And instead panning along actors on a telephoto lens, what if I panned with them on an 85mm lens instead and run on the arc like suggested. Would that be better, cause then I can have the aperture more open on an 85mm with not as shallow of a DOF, compared to a telephoto at the same aperture?

Or I could just fully place this into a DPs hands without having to worry about if the script will work or not and just fully leave it up to them while I concentrate on other things in the directing process?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

An 85mm lens isn't a "telephoto" lens unless you're using a small sensor.

You've got many advantages over the feature films made in the early 1970s, they used 100ASA film, which they could only force a stop. The digital cameras can show more detail in the shadows compared to film, you've got access to more faster lenses than was available then. If you wish to lose shadow detail you can compress the blacks in the colour correction..

Some of the old films may have been shot with anamorphic lenses, which look different to flat lenses. Shooting with long lenses is very restricting, I know because I've worked on commercials that only used them The shots take a lot longer,to set up and you end up with the camera outside the room. You have to be consistent, otherwise it isn't a look, more just a few long lens shots in the middle of a film. ,

However, all this won't improve you film because you don't seem to be paying attention to the important stuff for a low budget feature film. Again, all this is stuff you should be discussing with your DP because, since it's a freebie or a near one (given the budget), they're the ones probably providing the kit.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Okay thanks, I know an 85mm is not a telephoto, it's just it was said that I am obsessed with telephoto lenses so I thought maybe I could be more flexible and pan with an 85 instead, while the actor runs in a circle as I pan. The only thing is, the actor does not have as big of circle to run for very long, if that's okay?

It's just I am trying to be flexible on the telephoto lens idea, since I was told I am obsessed?

I talked to a few DPs and one said to use lenses with high ISOs though, if that is the way to go, since it was said before on here, not to go over 1250 on the ISO? I guess I just like getting other opinions too, and feel uncomfortable leaving all the answers in the hands of the DP, hoping every decision he/she will make, will be right.

When you say I am not paying enough attention to the important stuff, what would the important stuff be? The script and acting? I am concentrating a lot on that too, but since this forum deals a lot with the technology, I thought it was more proper to discuss that portion of the filmmaking on here, rather than the script and acting. I discussed the scriptwriting parts on a writing forum for example, unless I should be discussing those on here as well?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Regarding the 85mm, it all depends on how tight a shot you're using, what size of sensor you;re using, how fast they're running and if your camera operator can move around the tripod legs fast enough.

Changing the ISO to a very high level will change the look of your film, you want the noise levels to look consistent. Also, what is acceptable noise to one DP can be totally unacceptable to another.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay thanks. Well one filmmaker I helped out on some projects before, said that on a telephoto, with a deeper aperture, an ISO around 3000-4000 should be enough he said, as long as that looks good.

If the camera operator can run around the tripod fast enough, will the audience notice that the actor has ran around the room over and over again, rather than taking longer since they are suppose to running from one side of the room to the other? As long as the audience doesn't notice that.

Also, if I don't use a telephoto lens at night, is it possible to fake compression for some of the shots, where I want high compression if I use an 85mm instead? For example I did some tests. Two of these shots are telephoto with high compression and the other two were done on an 85mm lens where I tried to cheat the compression. Does cheating the compression work on non-telephoto:

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Strictly speaking anything over 50mm is telephoto. 85mm is mild but the m4/3 cameras have 2x crop making it 170mm.

You’re wasting your time. After all the talk he made here for over a year he has never bought anything. I couldn’t even convince him to buy a $20 power adapter. Whatever the reason he doesn’t have the ability to buy anything no less a camera. He’s already been given the advice to get a BM camera but he proceeds to ask about the gh5. I don’t care what he gets but he isn’t really getting anything.

It’s weird sometimes when he talks he makes sense and then he says f11 for a night scene... he has no clue. It’s been said countless times not to emulate commercial movies and most any decent camera will work if properly lit.

Stop talking about iso and film numbers like you can plan out ahead of time without ever using said camera.

pointless

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Yes, I was debating if I should put telephoto in quotes. It also varies with the sensor size.

You can't tell anything from YouTube videos, project the original onto a large screen and decide then if the noise levels are acceptable to you personally. Regarding the gun shots, they are are all pretty bland and I don't get what you're obsessing about.

Are you talking about your night exterior or an interior when using the arc trick? They are very different because the background visual cues are usually closer with the interior, you should be able to visualise these yourself.

I wouldn't go that high an ISO just to get DOF, f11 for a night scene on a long lens is just crazy stuff.

Even A RED doesn't look good unless you light properly. Sure it looks sharp with lots of resolution. but it can look pretty bland without the lighting.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

We also covered the problems with longer lenses and tracking shots ages ago. Remember Ryan? We talked about the need for much better pan/tilt heads, solid support? Filling a frame with a person is no big deal, but keeping things steady is a killer. If you follow somebody at a distance, your start, run and stop speeds need very careful handling. I used to do do quite a few airshows in the 90's and following an aircraft at a diagonal is the worst thing I think I had to manage, and I got a post head to assist me.

With long lenses, I always try to avoid them, moving in close because the lenses let in more light, have deeper DoF and are much less reactive to wobble.

I also wonder if you've actually considered the lighting for these night shots. If you are using available light - where does this come from? Is it bright enough, or are you shooting the black cat in a coal mine? If you need light, can you actually produce it? I've never had much luck shooting in the night time at all with artificial lights because of the noise the generators I could afford produce.

Let's get down to basics. Do you have the funds to buy your new camera and a lens? Perhaps if you said I have $X, what do you suggest we could be helpful. You seem to want to buy a BMC, which I see getting good reviews, but you want to put a very basic lens on it? This will perhaps introduce all those issues you had with your current lens? If the lens you are thinking of has a maximum aperture of f5.6, then is it actually a good lens? I don't know - you never give enough detail for anything other than general answers.

I found this forum https://www.writingforums.org/thread...-elder.138659/

Ryan did exactly the same in their script forum - and looks like in the end he got banned. The style of the responses is identical to what we have here. Indeed many of his questions here were actually raised by him 3 or 4 years ago - so these script ideas are hardly new!

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Regarding the writing forum, I see one person lost the will to live on what sounds like Ryan's cop thriller.

Ryan really needs to be able to do an analysis of his own ideas and work, because it can get to the stage where other people are putting more work into this process than Ryan himself. If he can't develop his own sense of judgment he';s wasting his time wanting to be a director.