Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

If that's what you want, but it would look more interesting in black and white.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

oh black and white? It was in color before, no?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

So the blue clothes are now green, and you're trying to get the faces right?

I'm a bit surprised you're still trying to polish the turd on this one? This video surely has absolutely no need of a grade at all does it? The red short and the green short and blue walls are what there really was, and now we've got colour shifts making the wall that weird blue colour?

Or was it the other way around? This isn't really colour grading is it? It's and effect and colour replacement. I know I'm rubbish at grading, but it's never occurred to me that you'd use it instead of repainting a room. No wonder you're looking for unusual colour balance settings.

Probably best I do keep out of this one because it makes no sense at all to me what you are doing?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh well I wasn't planning on coloring the actual video this way, I just took the one shot as a test to try to get better at grading and separating skin tones. I also tested on other footage, but I got the same thing, where the footage looks somewhat noisier after.

However, if for my next project I actually want blue walls, but cannot paint the walls, can I at least light them so they are darker, in order to separate the skin tones better in post, and the color them blue in post?

I know it was said to separate the skin tones while shooting only, but other colorists in their tutorials are separating them in post, so it is something that can be done therefore, isn't it?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

The only thing that video sample proves is how little color grading matters if all the other things aren't done right (direction, lighting, costume, location, acting, camera work, etc). Color grading is the final step, the icing on the cake so to speak. It enhances a good movie but can't rescue a poor one.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

The colourists are doing more work than you are Ryan with their scenes. Your test would be unusable in a film because you'd need to keep the clothing consistent throughout the film.

Sometimes you have to give up on something because you don't have the resources to do it and a poor quality job will distract from more important aspects of the film.

I don't know why you're going over this stuff again, since it was gone over and over again in another thread,

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh it's just in the other thread, certain variables were not mentioned that I wanted to go over, such as the how I was recently told that a camera with a better codec was better for separating skin tones, which is what I was asking about in the OP.

However, if the change in codec does not make that much of a difference, than I could try to make the background blue or teal while shooting. But if I do that and I am not allowed to paint the walls, then should I just light the walls blue, while keeping the skin tones separate?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

I think I finally understand the confusion. Think for a moment what you are doing. You have taken the skin tone thing out of context. You want to change the colour of certain parts of the indivudal frames - a photoshop style process. We're not talking about subtle changes to colour balance and toning - we're talking about image processing, and pretty severe processing at that! You want to preserve the skin colour. That means big changes to make the heavy adjustment you have made go back. The amount of colour information in the data stream is already limited in the digitisation process - we get the best detail in the luminence and the colour is just at a sufficient level. Tweak too much and you lose the differences in colour, and putting them back creates colour noise. The 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 difference just allows more scope.Better colour quality, if you like.

Maybe an analogy would be to use audio. You put is a radical and crazy eq with a 32 band eq. You then feed that to another 32 band eq and try to recreate the original with the same cut and boost the other way. You'd get something similar, but noisy and far less 'quality'. This is what you are having trouble with the experiment. 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0 do the mangling differently - but what you are doing is just wrong, compromised, pointless or just plain daft!

If you go to somebodies venue you CANNOT even consider starting to repaint the walls. You can't think about changing it electronically. You just light it so their skin tones and clothes look as good as you can. If clothes are important, then that is the costume department. If the walls are that critical, then your budget will allow repaining, and then probably restoration. If you don't have the money - choose a different location, or put up with it. You don't tell the client you can change the colour in post, because you can't do it properly.

Lots of people who need chroma keying see the differences in 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0 in the sharpness of areas of changing colour - where the green becomes not green. That does make a difference to the keying. A small one perhaps, but measureable. You are just doing silly things.

Light the scene properly, or accept what you get. I don't think you should treat colour as something you can replace in post.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay thanks. But when watching tutorials on color grading, they are actually able to change the color in post though. In this tutorial:


The background is actually grey on the walls in the real location and they changed the color to a teal look. So what you are saying that the background cannot be changed in post, they actually did it though. He separated the skin tones, and changes the background walls from grey to teal at around 11:20 into the clip. So if it can't be done in post, than how does he do it?

At 1:20 into the video, he also shows a scene from Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol. The original shot of the woman walking down the street, the streets are grey and her coat is grey. Then it shows how it was graded to teal in post. So not even a multi-million dollar movie like Ghost Protocol, could afford to make the streets and clothes teal. The person in the video says notice how the neutral colors have changed to teal in post production. So even a movie like that was forced to use neutral colors instead of teal it seems.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

You're going to have do that with the entire film. Care has to be taken with costume selection and to a certain extent you need to light as if you're shooting in black and white, since you no longer have a full range of colours (basically two)..

That means you need to use the lighting to create separation, so flat lighting. as in your two martial arts guys is best avoided. because the scene can look "dead" extremely quickly because the textures etc are being lost.

I can see little point in you to keep on asking here about the process, you've got a video that explains the use of nodes etc to get neutral whites. It's a matter of you understanding the processes in Resolve and testing them out. The last time I looked, the program has a 1200 page manual, plus there are books on digital colour correction, which goes into more detail than is possible in a forum.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay thanks. What I could do is ask a DP to light so that the skin can be separated in post later, as long as a DP can light that way, and maybe just leave it up to them? And yes, I tried to follow the videos instructions, just kept getting noise in the footage when I do it.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

NO NO NO - That is not what I'm saying. It is perfectly possible to do almost anything - the question is in the detail. Just look at the thumbnail for that video. The colour, the definition, the lighting, the contrast - but most of all, the skill of the operator. Presented with lower definition material, more noise, and a poorer source material in general, then the result would be as you discovered - less good.

Show me a you tube video where there was zero budget and beginner calibre crew where it works and doesn't look like it's been fiddled with!

You are taking things to excess. In that video, the colour shifts he carefully calculates and inserts are subtle - the skin tones get enhanced just a bit, and the cyan (which is what teal is) gets deepened. The video world seems to be preoccupied with this effect because it makes pinky colours more obvious.

Subtlety, care, love and attention to detail. You just made it a feature. Subtlety isn't on your agenda. Yours is effect vs their realism.

From what I know of colourists, their job is not to repair faulty shooting, it's to make good video even nicer to watch.

Please don't reply starting "OK thanks, but ......."

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay. Sorry if I start a lot of my posts that way.

How come a movie like Ghost Protocol doesn't just get the actress a teal colored coat, or actually paint the street teal, instead of doing in post then, since they have so much money?

So for my next project where I want a teal background from the actors, let's say I light white walls to be darker than the skin tones. Will this help get the background to be able to be graded to teal and will it work, or could it?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

You seem to be stuck, this effect appears to be a style to get something like the visual style of the old black and white thrillers for an audience that won't sit and watch a black and white film. Turn off the colour on your TV and see what it looks like.

Unless you've got the lighting resources to get tonal separation, as in a black and white film, don't go down this route. You usually do have the walls with a bit less exposure than the characters, however, white walls will reflect back any light that hits them. That is an issue that the DP has to address and it can eat up the lighting time.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

They do NOT paint things cyan, because it's not pigment it's a shift in colour balance. We are talking subtle Ryan. Do you not watch these videos and try to understand? It's not about the colour, it's about the colour 'world'. Infinite shades, and with black and white we change contrast to make the light stand out from the dark. In colour we shift one part of the scene one way, and the rest the other. Moving something neutral towards green would make magenta the right complimentary colour. You could dye a coat a tiny bit blue/green, and put some more makeup on the actress. Painting the street would not remotely work, and would look cartoonish. Think subtle - this is what the colourist is doing. You changing a T-shirt from blue to green, or a grey wall to blue is an effect. This much change creates the blandness in the colour range and the noise.

If you have light, white walls, then that's going to look false doing it by adding that much gain and change. You seem to totally misunderstand what they are doing. How exactly would you light a wall to be darker than skin? Skin is not white. It is less in every colour component and luminosity. If you want the wall darker - do NOT light it, light the subject!

You also need to ask yourself WHY you would want to tint it cyan. Certainly not for realism. I suggest you stick to things critical to moviemaking - like real basics (composition, story, camerawork and audio capture) and when you have mastered these, move onto the subtle stuff. It's like a doctor getting paranoid about the neatness of their stitching, without learning how to actually remove the appendix!

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh it's just that since my next project is more of the thriller suspense genre, I though that coloring the background a more cyan/blue would give it a more cold feel and is what I want for that genre, if that makes sense? I could just light the white walls then and not use a fill light, or at least a very dim one, if that's better? And yes, I am not going for realism but a more cinematic experience.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

There are other methods of getting a cooler look, it depends if your film is more about style or realism, if it's an action film or more about the dialogue. Just because other films use something, it doesn't mean it's right for your film, there's no magic bullet for a suspenseful thriller.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Yeah that's true, I just feel that the cold steel blue look would be best for this next thriller project.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

The choice is yours, I suspect this has gone as far it can in a forum, it's up to you to do the full tests with the gear that will actually be used, otherwise this will end up going around in circles in the forum.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

So Ryan what are you really asking us? Clearly you want to do this orange/teal effect. You’re are going to need at least a 10bit 4:2:2 capable camera. You will also need to lean how to do this in Resolve.

Honestly if you can master this I think you would be better off as colorist than a director.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

That's true, perhaps I should stick to directing and leave it up to a separate DP. Should I just tell the DP i want the teal and orange look and light for that, so it can be pulled off properly in Resolve with no noise or artifact issues?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

This discussion should involve both the DP and the colourist, so that there is joined up thinking.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Okay but I wanted to color myself to save money where I could. I will get a DP to shoot it properly but was hoping I could handle the grading. I was told the things the projects I colored before looked good for what they were, but I haven't separated the skin tones in those ones, and want to do this for future ones.

I can follow the davinci resolve tutorial exactly, and I think it will work if the movie was shot right for that type of skin tone separation in davinci. So can the DP just be knowledgable that he doesn't have to speak to a colorist, and I tell him/her what I want and he/she would know how to do it?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Then ensuring your Resolve skills are up to the required level is entirely up to you, You won't get those on the forum, but only by lots of practice and developing your eye for detail.There's no [point in asking questions here, this all has to be discussed with the DP.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Is the cameraman/DP trying to get consistency in what is shot and shooting for 'normal', and then the colourist works their magic on 'perfect' material.

Why would you want to follow the tutorial exactly - that only works on that material. You will have something different, so need to adjust the process to produce what you want. Are you certain that your movie suits it? Or maybe you will find something similar but better.

Youtube videos are for process and technique - very rarely for following to the letter.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Yeah I actually have an idea for a similar look but modified. The thing about the teal and orange look is that if you do it in a trees, which is where I want to shoot, the green is depleted out of the trees and grass completely, which I don't like. I also do not want faces to be orange. I was thinking they could be more on the normal skin color range.

So instead of a teal and orange look, I want something similar that is a normal skin color and teal, and green look, if that makes sense? So it's a similar concept with the skin tones isolated and colored differently than everything else, but with different colors more so.

I also do not necessarily need the type of lighting used in the video. I may go for less soft, more high key lighting, if that's right term.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Just be aware that the costumes will be a different colour if you start changing things between scenes.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay, but wouldn't the costumes be the same color between scenes if they are the same costume?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Not if you're changing the orange and teal settings for different locations. The costumes are affected by the latter, so if you change the strength of the teal for the locations that will influence the look of the costumes. You can see the costumes being changed compared with the original video in your test with the fighters.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh yes, I would have apply the same levels of color grading so the costumes stayed the same yes.

However, what if during shooting, if I want the background to be teal, we just put a teal gel on the background backlights?

Keep the keylight on the actors faces white, with no gel, but gel the background fill lights teal. Would that be better?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Adjusting different selected areas of the frame is going to push your skills with Resolve.

What is possible with the lighting will depend on the locations. the action within the scene, plus the lighting and grip kit you have available on the production. The trick is making it look natural. using blue LED practicals would motivate the walls to be blue.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay, are you saying to isolate different parts of the frame and color grade them differently, aside from the skin tones?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Unless you're prepared to put in months (if not years) learning the deeper aspects of colour correction, I would avoid doing so. Especially since it involves an entire feature film.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay sure. I can light the walls to be blue then, but when I asked about it before, I was told that it would cause two problems.

1. It would look unnatural cause the audience can tell that the walls are lit blue, as oppose to painted blue.

2. If I light the walls, I will have to use brighter lights on the actors, which would make things harder on the actors.

Are these two points true?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

If you've get blue LED practical lights in shot lighting the walls, that will motivate the walls to look blue with your lighting.

Since I doubt you're shooting with 40 ASA or 100 ASA film, there's no reason to have bright lights pointing at your actors unless you're trying to balance the daylight outside the windows. Just try and avoid pointing them directly into their eyes (unless there;s a good reason).

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay, I was just told that if I light the walls, then the actors have to be lit brighter since the backgroung should be darker than the actors, is what they meant. Is that true?

When you say that blue LED lights will motivate the walls, where would the motivation of the color of the light be coming from?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

It's all relative, the actors will be lit to a higher level than the walls, but if the light levels on the walls aren't high, the lights on the actors don't need to be that powerful.

Do you think things out? If the wall have blue LEDs in shot as practicals lighting them and the rest of the scene has tungsten lighting, what to you think is motivating the walls to be blue?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Do you actually have the budget to light the set a consistent brightness then add your acting light? The drop off on wide areas is quite obvious unless you have multiple light sources? If you are going to buy lights (I remember you not liking/able to hire) there are some variable colour lights available that let you dial in all the available hues at different saturations. With a decent large screen monitor you could simply light the set like that?

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Oh okay, last time I checked, the lights were you dial in the hues, actually cost quite a bit more, compared to lights, where you put CTB gels on instead. But I can have another look in prices. I can get a DP, just like knowing my option and other opinions as well, if that's okay, especially if a DP becomes unavailable or something while shooting. What do you mean by 'drop off' in this context?

The blue walls would just be there to help separate the background from the actors, cinematography wise. That's the motivation really. Is that not enough? But you see this in movies like in that tutorial I posted where they show the background being blue/teal, and the actors are more warm in the skin tones.

Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?
 

Yes, but the costume also has a teal tone in the tutorial. This is more about a "look" rather than separating the actors from the background. You don't need to use colour for that, they did it all the time in black and white movies.

If using blue lighting on the walls, you probably would need motivation, because they probably won't look like painted walls. Neither does the wall in the video tutorial, it looks like a colour correction effect, rather than paint.