Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Speed ramps are used in action films.

Doing a test is the best way to find out. No one here knows the build up or what happens afterwards, so any decision up to you. However, unless whole crash zoom shot is quick and doesn't linger I would tend not to use it.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Okay thanks. I should watch more action films :).

Well I did a test here. One advantage over the speed ramp compared to my zoom lens is that I can cover a lot more ground.

Here are two speed ramp tests I did with some footage where I ran with a gimbal. The second speed ramp, I added additional motion blur to it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yOA...ature=youtu.be

Do these speed ramps look like I did it properly, and does the added motion blur help?

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

None of us has vested interest in you doing it in a particular way. We are saying if you have your heart set on that type of zoom then get the proper lens. That is purely a technical point. Whether you should do it in the first place is a subjective question. Generally speaking a technique is not intrinsically good or bad it’s the application. It be like asking if you should use a wide angle lens.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Okay thanks I see what you mean.

Well I could do the speed ramp way if it means saving on trying to rent such a lens. I mean it was said that crash zooms look cheesy so if the speed ramp way is better than I could do that if it will work.

What about the speed ramp, did it look better than a crash zoom possibly?

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

For me (remember this is only guy's opinion) the answer would be no. When it speeds up the composition goes completely to hell. If that trash can was your subject you would want it to stay fairly centered during the fast part and it does everything but. Plus your planned move, that we've been discussing for 6 pages, is the opposite of that anyway, right? start close, quickly go wide?

Anyway, the idea was for the move to look fairly smooth and not janky...that test definitely does not.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

I suspect you don't have the resources to have the camera steady enough for a good fast speed ramp. When making films sometimes you (more than you'd want) have to bite the bullet and spend money to create what you want.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Okay thanks. Well normally someone else operates the gimbal where as for this test, I just borrowed it from a film school and ran as fast as I could down the street. However the wind kept turning it and keeping it from having a dead on frontal POV.

But again, in the past I have gotten a separate gimbal operator with more experience, where as this was just a practice test I did myself to see how it would look speed ramped.

I would get a gimbal operator to do it for the actual movie when we shoot it, it's just I don't know any would be interested in operating the gimbal for me, for a day, just for a speed ramp test.

If I had a professional gimbal operator who could move it more smoothly without wind problems, would that make the speed ramp look better?

Plus it was said on here that zooms look cheesy and unnatural but don't speed ramps look unnatural as well, since the footage looks obviously sped up, at least to me it does.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Wind and lack of skill will work against you. It has to be fast, but smooth.

Crash zooms need to be either part of a cutting rhythm combined with fast moving action or a punch effect.


Zooms don't need to be cheesy, they can be very effective,

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Okay thanks. It was said before that speed ramps are used in action movies, what are some that have them so I can see how they are done right?

Also, if I were to zoom it instead, I would cut it with movement like I've seen in other movies...

And if I need a lens that has a focus ring that is a mechanical one, and not a fly by wire, are there any lenses that have mechanical rings that go up to 300mm that I could get for no more than say 550 USD? I asked at the store for any DSLR lenses that do that but they were not sure cause it was an unusual request. But are there any?

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

What size sensor are you using and what is the wide end focal length required for your shot?

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

We haven't quite decided on a camera yet, but we will most likely be using one with an APC-S size sensor, since I might not want full frame, cause full frame might be too much shallow depth of field for what I want.

As for the wide end, it's hard to say but I was overall satisfied with my 70-300mm so far, but if I can zoom from 300mm to even wider, without having to pay too much more for a mechanical focus ring lens, than that would be good too. I am not sure what equipment I need until I figure out what I need to get the shots I want first.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Unless I’m missing something, APS-C is about 1.5x cropped compared to full frame and 70-300 would be well into telephoto, not wide at all and not even medium. Seems like the opposite of what what you would want for either your zoom or gimbal ideas (gimbals like to be on wider lenses usually for shot stability and a. better sense of movement in the shot). For a zoom I would think you’d be looking at a “superzoom” lens that goes from very wide (or at least medium) to very tight...sounds great but the compromise is theyre usually not great quality image-wise and dont open up that wide (f4 or 3.5 many times, and fully telephoto can only open to 5.6 or 6.7 or something so you have to stay as closed down as required for your tighest focal length to keep the exposure from changing in the shot.

That’s with still lenses. Cine lenses will behave differently bt now we’re talking about spending money and they’re usually pretty long and heavy if they’re zooms of significant range.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Oh okay. Well the reason why I wanted an APS-C sensor was for other factors. I wanted actors to be able to move around more in wide master shots, without going out of focus as much compared to a full frame. I also like APS-C sensors in the past cause if I wanted to use a telephoto, they allow me to zoom in further compared to a full frame, which you cannot zoom in as much compared to an APS-C, and get higher compression for some shots.

So that was my reason for wanting an APS-C sensor. However, for a zoom shot, I still think that the sensor will be able to be wide enough for when zooming back, won't it?

As for other shots where I want to use the gimbal, I haven't heard of other people with APS-C sensor cameras, having issues with the gimbal, as long as the lenses are not too long, unless I'm wrong If I were to use a gimbal instead of zooming for that shot, I would throw on probably a 50mm lens or something, so the gimbal would be more smooth. But I don't like going too wide because then I would have to get really close to the actors face before running away with the gimbal, and then there would be some barrel distortion in the face.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

You should be able to get away with a 35mm lens without much barrel distortion.

A few directors use a 32mm lens as their main lens.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Oh okay, but where does a 32mm lens come in? Or do you mean 35?

And yep I could probably use a 35mm as well. But as for doing possible crash zooms, are there any lenses that are around 70mm-300mm that you can get for a similar price to the Canon 70mm-300mm, that do not have a fly-by-wire focus ring? I am looking online, but a lot of the stores and ebay, do not say whether or not the lens is fly-by-wire or not in the specs.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

You might join a photography message board and ask them for recommendations or about any specific lens you might be interested in. Those nerds’ll know all about that stuff.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

The 32mm is a cine lens, Cooke make them..

There are 14mm lenses that don't have much barrel distortion, but you wouldn't want to use the for a close up, unless you were after a certain look.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Okay thanks. Yeah 14mm wouldn't look good for the look I want for a close up. I could ask on a photography forum, it's just that I thought they were more into still photography, and weren't use to doing crash zooms or pulling focus while zooming in video. But I could ask there as well.

It's just that cine lenses cost a lot more and I wanted a lens I could own instead of rent, since shoot days keep changing in past experience, and I can then have it for whatever days I need.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

No no no. Im saying since we’re probably talking about still lenses for your purposes the stills guys would know more details about them like if theyre mechanical focus or fly by wire. Not the stuff about crash zooms. You’d ask them about the type of focus ring on various lenses.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Oh okay, sorry, thanks. Actually something just occurred to me. I'm going to be using this zoom lens for other shots other than the zoom shot. I'm going to use it for shots where we're doing long pans and tilts.
If I hook this lens on to a different camera for those shots, the lens is not going to be able to focus at all, right? If it's a fly-by-wire focus that means that no camera it is hooked up to will be able to power the system to focus it if there's an adapter between the camera and the lens, right?

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Why not just use a separate shot of the baddies lying in wait ?

Much simpler and more effective, and after the cutaway you can always come back to a wider shot showing the ambush from another angle ...

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Well I thought of that. It's just I thought that a fast zoom would be more suspenseful to the situation rather than just simply cutting a lot of the time.

However, I think we have a much much bigger problem now though. It seems that the lens will not focus at all if we turn the focus ring. Not just for zooms but for anything it won't. Is it because we have an adapter in between the lens and the camera, and we need electric power going to the lens for the focus ring to work?

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Once you understand the limitations of using dslr with non cinematic lenses you’ll be able storyboard approaches to avoid these limitations. While it’s fine to be inspired by Hollywood movies you’ll find replicating them problematic. Much of film making is creative problem solving. Rarely what you envision in your mind will survive the real world.

Generally speaking photo lenses found on these cameras aren’t designed to zoom or focus manually smoothly. They’re made to be used with auto focus. As a result it’s best to avoid zooms and while it’s easier pull focus it’s better to avoid it.

We can’t answer your specific questions without knowing what your exact setup is. Sounds like your camera and or lens is highly reliant on automatic settings. It might be one thing to turn off auto and another to be able to control things manually.

In the past zoom/focus ring on a lens directly changed the internal elements but now theses rings are no more than buttons that communicate with servo motors in the lens and/or camera that in turn move the lens elements.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Which cirlcles us back around yet again...I think it’s worth completely rethinking the shooting approach to this sequence. There are nearly infinite ways to cover it and you lasered in on this one. shoot...probably every marvel/netflix show has many examples of scenes just like yours. How did THEY shoot it? Did their decision lack tension and suspense etc. etc.? Probably not.

I think if you watch other films/shows youll get a ton of new alternative ideas on how to stage and cover this. That’s one of things it took me years to figure out...researching what other have done and letting their ideas inspire you instead of just trying to figure everything out in your mind.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Basically, if you don't have the tools to do a shot one way, you have to come up with another method that will work with the tools you have available. Sometimes you can come up with a more imaginative way of doing it. limitations often spur creativity.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Right. And sometimes when you DONT do that you regret it later.

I worked on a short film a while ago that had some gun stuff. We didnt have a way to do the blood stuff or the gun stuff well but did it anyway...and I wish we’d found another approach...show a shadow on the wall when the gun flahses and someone is shot, cut to outside of the house wide and see window light up briefly (these were night scenes), ANYTHING besides what we did cause it looked meh and reminds you youre a)watching a movie and b) a zero budget one.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Okay thanks. I see what you mean. Well I can just use the gimbal to do the reveal then, or I can just cut ahead maybe.

I have a much bigger problem now though it turns out.

It seems that the lens will not focus at all if we turn the focus ring. Not just for zooms but for anything it won't. Is it because we have an adapter in between the lens and the camera, and we need electric power going to the lens for the focus ring to work?

But even if I use the Canon lens on a Canon camera, I am also having problems using the follow focus. If I make marks on the follow focus to focus from point A to point B during shooting for example, the lens does not seem to hit it's mark's as accurately. Is this because it's a fly-by-wire focus system, as oppose to mechanical?

If this is the case, should I just sell the lens and get a telephoto lens that is all mechanical so I don't have to worry about these electronic interferences and shortcomings? Plus it was said on here that it's easier to pull focus with a follow focus, on a mechanical lens, than a fly-by-wire one, so would trading this lens in for a mechanical just make things easier all around?

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Pulling focus is tough period unless your or your puller are very experienced at it. Solutions are stopping down the lens so people can move around more inside the available DOF and staging the blocking/conposin the shot to work within those limitations, or using wider lenses where you have way more in focus all the time, making it work stylistically. This is all from personal experience on zero budget stuff with dslrs and C100.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Okay thanks, but I watched this video on it, and they say in the video that pulling focus on fly-by-wire lenses, is much more difficult compared to mechanical focus rings:


So even though pulling focus is difficult either way, isn't it still more difficult on a fly-by-wire from what they say?

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Probably? I have not tried one vs the other but the mechanical lenses are at least designed where when the ring is set at a certain place, youre focused (approximately) at a certain distance. It’s consistent and repeatable. Not so with fly by wire.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Yes, that is why I have been having focus problems with this fly-by-wire zoom lens, is that when I set focus marks, they don't seem to be the same each time and cannot be repeated, just as you say.

So I am wondering if I should just sell the lens and get a telephoto zoom lens that has an all mechanical ring, for around hopefully the same price, if it will focus better.

Or if you say to work with what I have, how does a focus puller suppose to set distances and marks with a fly-by-wire lens, or what do they do instead to compensate with the gear that they have to pull focus?

When I went to film school, they never even taught us on fly-by-wire lenses, and I haven't even heard of that until now on here. So what does a focus puller do to pull focus instead if they cannot set distances or marks?

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

There isn’t any doubt that a cinema lens is what you need to pull focus. This is what everyone has been saying from the beginning.

It still isn’t easy and it introduces other issues. Mainly cost. You can buy cheap Chinese primes like Ronkino. Then you need a quality field monitor and focus pulling accessories.

Either you are doing this for a hobby or gaining experience to parlay into some commercial related video work that you can earn a living. You can only lose money making these type of low budget movies.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Actually I managed to find a hard stop telephoto lens on sale cheap!

Is the Sigma 150-500 camera lens worth buying, since it's on sale now?

It's the https://www.bhphotovideo.com/…/Sigma_737101_150_500mm_f_5_6…/BI/2855/KBID/3801 to be exact.

I'm usually uncomfortable buying second hand equipment cause it's been used and you don't know how worn out it is, compared to new stuff, or if there is any damage you find in the long run.

However the lens is on sale where I live for a hugely low price compared to a new Sigma model. So I was wondering if this lens is worth buying at all, even if it means needing an adapter to put it on a different camera possibly.

The person at the store said that since it's an older model it may not be as sharp and have some vignetting issues in the corners, but is he right, or was he just saying this so I would buy a new model perhaps?

I wanted a lens that can zoom into 300mm, for some long shots, where as this one zooms into 500 so a little more than what I need maybe, but for such a cheap price, is it worth the extra size and weight maybe to get a good 300mm quality lens, if it is?

As for needing a cinema lens, other people have been pulling focus on DSLR lenses though. On film riot, they even do this all the time. So isn't it possible since other people have made movie with DSLRs and DSLR lenses that have went on to win awards even? As for buying Ronkino lenses, I couldn't find a company called Ronkino. Do you mean Rokinon?

As for other equipment I work with videographers who have their own equipment and they help shoot as I direct. However, one thing they do not have is a telephoto lens, so I have to supply that for them, and just trying to find the best one for this project as well as future projects to invest in.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

With a stills zoom lens there is the chance that it will lose focus when you zoom in. Since this apparently varies from lens to lens the odds are that will do so until you test it..So it's best regarded a lens that has the option of various focal lengths.

Rokinon lenses are used by a number of film makers, although better when stopped down, they're not great when wide open. DSLR prime lenses are available that you can pull fucus on.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Okay thanks. Well I couldn't find any Rokinon lenses that go as high as 300mm since I want that for some other shots, other than this one I am talking about.

But I could still use a zoom lens for doing long pans and tilts, and for other shots, where I want high compression, where I don't require a zoom.

So let's say I say screw zooming, but still want a telephoto zoom lens with various focal lengths. I already have the Canon 75-300. But the problem is, is that I am having trouble focusing cause it's focus-by-wire.

So would it be worth selling and buying a Sigma 150-500mm, since that lens has all mechanical focusing, and would that make it easier, that it's worth trading in for?

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Yes Rokinon.

If you want to pull focus by wire be my guest.

A telephoto zoom is an odd choice of lens for cinema work.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Well there are lots of movies that use telephoto lenses though. Mainly the movie i am wanting to make has some running chase scenes in and the telephoto lens can track someone for a long time. The scene in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly where Tuco is running through the graveyard, had a telephoto lens tracking him as he ran, so I wanted that kind of lens movement which you cannot get with a lens that is not telephoto. I also want shots with high compression, like OTS shots where the characters look real close to each other and a telephoto lens will get that high compression.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Longer focal lengths are used in quite a few films, cinema has no focal length restrictions, Often the longer end of a 25 to 250mm zoom is used, plus there are also prime lenses. The Canon range has been a traditional favorite.

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

Oh okay thanks. When you say the Canon end has been a traditional favorite, why is that exactly? Anything I should be aware of there?

I also asked another filmmaker and he said that I should sell my lenses cause they are fly-by-wire, and that I should buy hard stop lenses instead. Do you think he's right though, and that fly-by-wire is that bad, that I should sell, and take the loss, and get all hard stops?

Re: Is it possible to pull focus on a lens while crash zooming?
 

The Canon lenses focus the "right" direction, unlike Nikon lenses. The lenses are modified with a universal mount, which meant that the lens mount can be quickly changed by the rental companies so that they could be fitted to a range of film cameras. The Canon 300mm f2.8 would be the main lens, but they had longer focal lens available in the Canon range.

The universal mount involves removing the rear of the lens and fitting a new section with a thread onto which the various camera mounts can be fitted. You can still buy these lenses, but they are professional still lenses, so aren't cheap and the modification isn't cheap either.

"Hard stop" focus allow you to to directly pull focus and use the markings on the lens, a focus ring that turns continuously can't be used this way.