Win2k Editing/Acquisition
 

I've been using avid on winxp, but I really don't like xp (I'm an nt4 guy). I've used win2k for years and been very pleased with it, so it is by far my operating system of choice. Aside from Premiere 6.5 and Vegas, are there any worthwhile programs that I can look at for nle and/or capture over firewire? If there's something that I could use just to rip the dv then that would be a start.
I really don't like p65 and vegas, because they are so painfully slow and there is no multicam editing. I could live without the multicam, but the speed is horrible.
JJ

As long as you have the recommended system specs for the NLE you are using, your computer shouldn't be painfully slow. I suggest looking at the Videoguys' Windows XP Tips, tricks & TWEAKS and Windows XP TWEAKS / Optimization for Video Editing Systems – PART II.

As for multicam editing, United Media Multicam is available for Adobe Premiere (I believe it may still support Premiere 6.5, but you would have to check with the company to make sure), and for Vegas there are at least two multicam editing scripts available: Merlin and Excalibur.

And just wondering, but what is it about Windows XP that you don't like, as opposed to Windows 2000?

I've done xp optimizations and I've even set it up to function like win2k. The problem stems from Premiere's/Vegas's having to render everything, or something like that (especially when working with mpg's). Maybe working with uncompressed avi's is better. I haven't done any of that, as I didn't have a dv camera until now.
I can't really explain why I don't like xp except to give an example...
When I got my first computer (packard bell 100mhz) it came with windows 3.11 and we received a free win95 upgrade when it came out. I enjoyed 3.11 but man I was looking forward to 95. It was released and I upgraded. Then I uninstalled it. A few weeks or months later I upgraded again. Then I uninstalled. This happened multiple times. I wanted to like win95. I really did. But I just didn't like it. Then win98 came out and I liked it. Then win98se came out and I liked it even more. Then nt4 came out and I was blown over by the stability. Then winme came out and I hated it with every fiber of my being. Then win2k came out and I found my lifelong partner. When xp came out I wanted to like it. It had all this nifty a/v support, it played games better, bleh bleh bleh... I wanted to like it. I'm forced to use it at work. I've tried it time and again at home. I was forced to use it while making a wedding dvd. But at the end of the day, I still don't like it.
If I'm forced to use xp then I am. But it will be just that; forcing.
Maybe vista will be my win98, but that won't be told until my dx9 card comes in the mail later this week.
JJ

Vegas works fine under Win2K. However, the above link for Excalibur is incorrect. Instead, you need to look here: http://www.jetdv.com/excalibur

Also, Merlin, as mentioned, was not a multi-cam tool. The author of that tool did work on a multi-cam tool but, as far as I know, it was never completed. Here's a link to the that info: http://www.curtissoftware.com/Multi-Camera-Edit.html

Other multi-cam tools for Vegas include Ultimate S, Duo-Cam, and Infiniti-cam all by VASST.

Most of the newer NLE's don't just request XP, they outright demand it. I was in the same boat, and finally upgraded from 2K and Premiere 6 to XP and PP2. As far as rendering everything, I had to do that with 6 too for the most part.

And as much as you dislike Win95, it does have a few perks... It's the only OS that will properly run the good ol games like Duke Nukem and Shadow Warrior ;)
I'm working on a retro system from spare parts I've been squirreling away, mostly to work with my old Infinty 3D program, and my old games too.

That is partially true. I've found that many classics are being revamped. Quake was a dos only game that is now nt compatible, complete with 32-bit graphics and quake3 lighting (joequake, fuhquake, etc...). Tomb Raider is a dos only game that is being revamped with new textures and a loader. Descent is, too.
There is also the compatibility mode. I think it's native in xp, but it is also available with win2k. It's just a little harder to activate. You can set the executable to win95 and it can work pretty well. I think I had to do that with Tomb Raider 2-5.
JJ

Whoops, sorry about that. I got those links from a page listing Vegas scripts.

I am not sure, but isn't win2k going away? I have embraced winxp because I had too. I think for the power pc user that you probably are, it is difficult to get used to how many things winxp wants to do for you which means less control.

That is the big difference in functionality between win2k and winxp (I know there are many things under the hood that are different like security). Win2k is for a techie while winxp is for mom and pop at home.

That certainly is part of it. Here's some quick things that I detest about xp...
You can't properly do user administration from the control panel.
If you have a list of files that you are renaming in windows explorer, the files will jump to the end of the list as you rename them SOMETIMES (IE...not all the time and not none of the time).
I like to keep task manager minimized to the system tray so I can see my cpu usage. The cpu meter disappears when in the tray SOMETIMES. Usually, closing task manager and reopening it will bring it back.
If not logged into a domain, ctrl-alt-delete brings up the task manager instead of the change password/task manager/etc... box.
It takes more resources.
Bleh bleh bleh...
I know there are a lot of good points about xp, but I still don't like it. I'll use it if/when I have to (work for instance), but I wish I didn't.
JJ

One of the top things I'd love to ditch, is the auto updates crap. I am fully capable of doing updates on my own. When I turn off the auto updates, I get the message my PC might be at risk... as if letting it freely play by itself isn't a risk?

You can turn off that reporting within the security settings tab of system properties (if I remember correctly). I don't like that, either.
JJ

Thanks Joshua! One annoyance down... ;)

Well...
I got my 9800pro today ($60) so I'm off to install Vista Beta 2. Maybe I'll like it better than Xp.
JJ

I can get to Local Users and Groups in three clicks...

Click 1: Start Menu
Scroll to Administrative Tools->Computer Management and Click 2
Click 3: Local Users and Groups

I've attached a screenshot of my Start Menu to show how you can have all these admin-like things available (readily configured by Customize Start Menu). (Heavily compressed gif so may look a bit odd)

I used to love Win2K and wasn't overly keen to step up to XP but I have. XP *Pro* is a dream to use and configure. From a programmer's perspective, it adds some great new stuff for make writing apps easier, especially handling DV devices!

But you are just a click away from the Shutdown menu in Task Manager. I find that I use Ctrl-Alt-Del more often to get Task Manager than to get the other functions. Nevertheless, I'm sure there is a registry setting to configure the behaviour to suit.

[/QUOTE]

Hmmm...don't count on it - it is still beta. High performance stuff still needs finalizing...

And talk about resources....

I know.
I will say that what I used of vista was pretty impressive. My soundcard drivers aren't vista compatible and I couldn't find drivers for my ide-raid card, but overall it was a pleasant experience.
I didn't like that there is no list view in windows explorer and internet explorer really complains when it's security settings aren't enabled.
I liked the analog clock widget and the thumbnails when mousing over the startbar.
I think as things get fleshed out it will be a worthy upgrade.
Resource hog? A new Microsoft product? Nah.
JJ

Try this. Right click on the System Tray and choose Properties. In the Properties box under Notification area uncheck "Hide inactive icons."

Ewww...
Why would I want to hide stuff? That's one of the problems with xp. It takes the powerful nt operating system and dumbs it down so grandmothers can use it.
Show hidden and system files; check. Hide extensions for known file types; uncheck.
Hehehe...
And when I was refering to ie not liking the security stuff disabled I was actually talking about ie and not vista. IE pops the little warning dialog down on every webpage when you have stuff turned off.
Since this thread has gone off on a tangent, let me bring it back to plumb...
Are there any simple (free even) programs to just capture over firewire and save as uncompressed avi? I know Serious Magic's DvRack will and it works with 2k. Are there other options?
JJ

To clarify - DV input and save AVI as uncompressed full-frame 24-bit RGB?

Do you need to do it in one step - i.e., the uncompressed AVI is written at the time of capture? Or can you accept capturing to DV AVI then uncompressed afterward?

For the later, there's a myriad of things. For the former, Microsoft has a great little widget called GraphEdit - supposedly for DirectShow application developers. With it, you can do almost anything as long as the filters exist on your computer. Officially, it is only available with the Platform SDK but a Google will doubtless come up with unofficial sources of it.

Mind if I ask why you want uncompressed?

John.

My bad...
I forgot that dv is still compressed, just not to the point of mpeg2/4. I just want a standard dv .avi file.
JJ

Windows Movie Maker will - it's free but you'd have to succumb to XP!

Google for "DVApp" - another Microsoft freebie that is supposed to only be available with the Platform SDK but has been "put out there". Can't recall if the latest version works with Win2K or not. MS improved the DV device handling in XP and some apps compiled expressly for XP or higher may not work on Win2K.

WinDV - never tried it but it's free.

For XP, our very own DV Processor - beta at the moment.

Also, do you know if you need Type-1 or Type-2 DV AVI files? i.e., what do you intend to do with the AVI files? Depending on any other software you decide to use with them, you may have limitations.

Hmmm...
I'm not sure. In the past, I have edited in Avid Xpress so I was aiming for just recording to hard drive in omf. Since I'm using wink2 I think I'll be stuck with either Premiere 6.5 or Vegas 6 (I'm playing with Vegas currently).
JJ

Oh, and I found that VASST has a free 2-cam plugin, for Vegas, called DoubleTake. I haven't used it, yet, but if you only need 2 cams then it would probably be good enough.
JJ

Type 2 DV AVI most likely (for Premiere 6.5). Don't know about Vegas.

If you get DVApp, you can capture to either and test the captured files that way.

Also, if you have Premiere 6.5, it will capture for you - is there a problem doing it that way?

When you say 'omf' - are you after files that are the raw DV instead of wrapped in an AVI file. If so, (it pains me to suggest, but...), Quicktime ("Pro" version) can create .DV files - the raw deal. Not sure if it can do it from AVI or not, though. Definitely from MOV).

Kinda confused as to what your end objective is here...

DvApp:
free
works with win2k
uses ~25% cpu
uses ~12mb ram
plays audio while capturing
displays timecode from the camera
has camera controls

WinDv:
free
works with win2k
uses ~12% cpu
uses ~20mb ram
splits files automatically with break in timecode

AmCap:
not free (demo stops after 3 1/2 minutes or 3 stills)
works with win2k
uses ~25% cpu
uses ~15mb ram
based on DvApp
ability for direct mpeg/wmv compression
vmr9 preview instead of overlay
still capture

Only that I don't know if I'm going to use P65 or not.
Avid uses 3 .omf files (video, audio left, audio right). The firestore hard drives can capture in omf (I think it's basically just dv avi split up with a different extension. The reason that I wanted to do that with Avid was so there was no conversion time. If I used .dv, .mov, .avi, etc... it had to convert everything to .omf, which takes a very long time.
Basically, it's nice to use whatever format your nle wants to use. Since I haven't decided what I want to use with 2k, yet, I'm not sure what format I want.
JJ

If you capture without preview, minimize the app during capture or select a smaller preview size, the CPU usage will drop markedly...

Re .omf, what you'd like to do is capture to .omf but not via Avid?

You're missing the point. I'm not using Avid, because I'm not using xp. Since I'm not using Avid, there's no reason to do omf. When I get hardcore into video editing, then I'll probably be forced back into xp and use Avid. For the moment, though, I just want something that I can get dv off tape using 2k. WinDv seems to be the best option, right now.
JJ