Like Robert, I too have sifted through various definitions of "professional" and have adopted my own. It suits my purposes, and you are free to reject it, as we are all free to reject Robert's, even as he has rejected others.

On the one hand, you have the definition created by the sports world, whereby one may lose their "amateur" status, simply by being payed once, or even accepting other types of compensation. Once you take money, you become "professional", even if the amount is small.

This seems a bit severe, and the average person on the street has a "reasonable" expectation that a "professional" is one who makes their living in a particular field. (One assumes they have reached this level by a combination of experience and training )
Like Robert, I too turn to the law for the definition of "reasonable." Unlike Robert, I wouldn't limit the class of professionalism to those who deal only in life or death matters, (Medical Professionals, Legal Professionals, Engineers who build life dependent systems, or military personell. Using that criteria, the only professionals in the film industry would be stunt co-ordinators)

Having said that, there is a "grey world" of professionals, or "semi-pros" in the arts as well as in sports. In the DV world, the term "Prosumer" has been applied to equipment that falls somewhere between "professional" gear and "Hobbyists/consumer". Seems like many of the people who visit these boards are "prosumers". People who pursue their craft/art as a business - sometimes on the side, hoping to build it to the status of full time, full pay. That's a good way to start.

My definition of "Professional" then, is one who makes their living by performing their craft/art. Semi-professional would fit the bill for those who pursue it part-time. It's a definition that sometimes falls short, but it's a "reasonable" one for me.

Having said that, I just visited Mandy.com to search for "Fully paid" jobs in the US for editors. The results were pretty much what one would expect.

Nine full time jobs listed for Avid editors

Five full time jobs listed for FCP editors.

Three jobs listed for Editors with skills in Both platforms.

Two jobs listed for "others" Discreet, Smoke etc.

None listed for VV.

Just an observation on marketable skills at the present time. Perhaps, in five-ten years, VV will have reached a similar level of integration in the professional world.

All the best
Bill

At one time, there was a pretty clear distinction between professionals and laymen. Trade unions still follow a strict heirarchy of apprentice, journeymen, and master. In the US, doctors, engineers, lawyers, and accountants are required to demonstrate prerequisite knowledge and, periodically, ongoing education. Electricians, plumbers, elevator repair, telephony, and many other trades that don't readily to mind are also internally or legally regulated. In short, anywhere that public safety and welfare is concerned, there is a sharp distinction between the hobbyist and professional.

The entertainment industry sits here full of itself, and draws distinctions based not on qualifications, but on membership or length of service. Public safety is not at stake, but the size of one's paycheck is. For better or worse, the paycheck is the distinction In the end, lacking another, that is the definition of professional.

It could be worse. You might find yourself in a profession that's at odds with your hobby. Getting paid for your hobby efforts is an enviable position.

Jeff, sorry I misconstrued your comment on your 10 favorite movies being edited on Avid. Most of my favorites were cut with a splicer and tape before Avid was even formed. I could give you the list but you get the idea. Again, this debate really started with someone saying that Vegas was not stable---it has evolved into an interesting discussion of peripheral subjects.

By the way, have any of you guys ever edited on a Movieola or Steinbeck ????

It's sort of peripheral, but sort of at the heart of the mater. Americans want to be able to look at a list, compare numbers (features) and pick a winner. I like to think of it more as the Zen of editing. I think people should start out with the right set of tools and then evolve. As someone here pointed out, the hardest thing about Avid is unlearning the way you used to edit.

I went from linear editing in the '80's and early '90's to Avid editing and now FCP. Learning the Avid was fairly easy. It seemed natural and still does.

My comments about careers deal with peoples hopes and dreams. I know quite a few young people who dream of working in TV. Well, the majority of TV stations that are non-linear are Avid based. Why not have a jump on the competition and know the ins and outs of the tools you'll be using? Nothing I've said is meant to be a slam on VV3 or any other product. As Robert pointed out they are all capable of doing what the other does, just a little differently.

Except actual film. Avid is the only one that handles the frame numbers on film so that you can conform a list to go to the neg cutter with and edit your film. That's why the majority of the worlds great editors cut on an Avid. Avid is the only one that you can cut film on, with a few exceptions.

Jeff

"Can anyone offer any advice on a good NLE system? I will use it mostly for home video but use a Sony DCR VX2000 and want to maintain the best image quality I can for eventual DVD authoring.

I have read a lot about Matrox RTX100 and Canopus DVStorm and was considering one of these devices but it seems that many people are very happy with Vegas Video 3, which not only is much cheaper, but also probably easier to install (the other devices being hardware based). The other issue is I may have to upgrade my computer (P4, 1.8 GHz, 1G RAM) to use the Matrox or Canopus effectively. I want to be able to have a couple layers of video and audio with 3-4 texts if I want, as well as color correction and some cool 3D transitions. Since I am a hobbyist I don't need lightening fast rendering, but would at least like some real time previewing of effects and not painfully long rendering when it is needed.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Jeff, I wish you would re-read the original post.
This gentleman is looking for a low cost NLE.
Avid purchase here makes no sense.

You don't need a chainsaw to cut butter.

Vegas would fit his needs and more.

I think your dream would be his nightmare.

Should he go to film school to have fun with his VX2000.

How does cutting film relate in anyway to his post?

Buy Vegas, a $20 USdollar OHCI card and a AVID T-shirt.

Have fun. Life is short.

If you have the money get a Storm or Raptor.
Stormedit is really easy. Once installed You could be having fun in an hour.
If you buy Canopus I will help you install it if you run into trouble.
Let me know what system you have now.
My two cents.
Best wishes,
Rick

And also look at Pyro's FW and Premiere bundle. I hear (but have not confirmed) that it's sub-$300 . Nothing whatsoever against Vegas; just rounding out the recommendations.

While we're at it: Avid Xpress DV 3.5 StudentPack, non-commercial use for qualified degree seeking students, for sub-$500.

What will be interesting is what adobe and a few sites are rumouring.

They are going to combine premiere with after effects, and make basicly one giant NLE. If that becomes a reality, except for the sound manipulation, that would be an almost unbeatable package.

Zac

Well, thank you everyone for your input. Although the conversation did stray a little from my topic it was very interesting. How cool it must be to get paid for doing something so fun. I'm envyous. But, either for better or worse, I have chosen a different career path and will never be a professional editor. So I have taken it up as a hobby.

Just so you know where I am coming from, I did a few projects on Videowave and Ulead but always felt pretty severely limited in what I could do and how fast I could do it. Which is why I started investigating these other products. Since this is just my hobby stability, ease of use and ease of installation are important, so I can spend more time playing and less time troubleshooting. However, I also want to have the flexibility to use some neat tools (things I mentioned in my original text) and make a great looking video.

From all of the discussion I am leaning towards buying Vegas Video and then if I want more, getting something diferent when its time to upgrade my computer.

I realize there are many good video editing tools available, most people have their favorite and even the best ones have their weaknesses. But for what I want to do it sounds like Vegas Video would probably meet my needs at a reasonable price. Anyone strongly disagree?

Thanks again for helping me with this really difficult and confusing decision. And thanks Rick for the generous offer to help me if I get a Canopus product.

Thats interesting--AE and Premiere combined into one giant package---I think that they will have to concentrate on tweaking premiere a bit----Hey, I have an idea---what about Adobe buys Vegas (is will be sold within 90 days--) dumping Premiere--and creating the super application Vegas After Effects---(headache, bags under your eyes, anxiety about credit).

I think that would be a nightmare for VV3 users. If Adobe bought VV3 they would probably merge it into Premiere and VV3 would disappear as you know it. That would be a shame, because it is a very good NLE.

Jeff

Charlie White of Digital Media Net has done a great job comparing the RTX.100 vs DV Storm2 vs Pro-One RTDV

http://www.digitalproducer.com/2002/...ootout2003.htm

Check it out!!

Gary
Videoguys.com