HM100 and smaller cameras?
 

My HM100 will be my main camera for my upcoming overland African trip (it ticks all of the boxes apart from a cheap overall cost). However I don't want to leave the HM100 in a pile of dust whilst I drive over it, hand it to a bunch of kids to take some shots or strap it to the back door when driving off road etc. In other words I need some smaller cheaper cameras for the cutaways/riskier shots.

However I can't see any obvious answers as no other cameras share the same shooting format, so any other footage would need to be converted before editing and I'm very unsure of what would convert well into my FCP timeline (I'll shoot in 1080 .mov and use in FCP - I haven't decided if it will be progressive or not yet).

I am trying a couple of Toshiba Camileo S10 for the very risky shots, as at 100 pounds ($160) they are potentially good for the very risky shots:
Options and Accessories individual page - Toshiba

However I'd like a better quality camera in case the HM100 fails for a while and so not all of my riskier shooting looks like it was shot on a mobile phone.

Any potential camera must shoot to SDHC cards and be able to take an ND filter (for the better quality camera only). Ideal if it shared batteries with the HM100 ;-)

Any suggestions for either tiny disposal type cameras or a better consumer level camera?

I'm looking at the spec sheet and see it's a fixed 7.2 mm f/3.2. They don't give the CMOS chip size but I bet it's a 1"/6 or thereabouts, so the focal length will mean it's portrait-length telephoto - and I guess what you're after is a nice wide shot that shows the situation you're in.

There's also no manual exposure control (what can you expect for the intended market) but you'll be cussin' at the sun making silhouettes out of everything. You won't need an ND for it (apart from protection) as I'm guessing there won't be a diaphragm at all - the auto exposure will all be dione with internal grad ND.

You'll also have to take another charger, and has it got a tripod socket or is this a gaffer tape to the A pillar job?

Good luck on the voyage of Discovery - er, I mean Land Rover.

tom.

Thanks Tom, testing shows that strapped to the chassis under the vehicle it does a good job in good light for a 100 quid camera - and being nice and flat it can be attached with Velcro to any flat surface which is handy.

Importing into FCP on a timeline with HM100 footage does take a while however (it prompts to convert the footage to the timeline settings)

But I'd like to know what other options are available for this smaller type of camera and a better consumer level camera that would integrate with the HM100 footage with the least hassle (as I'll be editing in my vehicle in Africa etc).

Maybe the JVC GZ-HM200BEK or GZ-X900EK etc etc

I use the Canon Vixia cameras quite a bit and have 2 I used for side cameras on a lot of shoots. They are very high quality and clean looking in bright light until dusk. Canon also updates their line twice a year with almost no change so you can easily find the last model from a couple months ago heavily discounted. In the Canon line cameras that star with HF are High definition Flash recorders which is what you probably want.

Canon HV20 used on Ebay should do ya.

Thanks - but having bought 12 times 32gig sdhc cards I'm not going to lump 100 minidv tapes around Africa as well ;-)

My questions is really what format full 1080 HD will be the least problamatic to convert to working on a FCP timeline with HM100 footage shot in .mov?

Yes, no more tapes, indeed!

The Panasonic TM300 look like it would serve your purpose. Even cheaper the Canon HF200 looks like it would work as well.

An older Panasonic SD100 would be less problematic in regards to conveversion if you are shooting progressive as there is no pulldown required. You could probably pick one of those up for around $500.

You can get the Sanyo FH1 for as low as around $432 in reputable dealers such as B&H. Since it’s not AVCHD, you should be able to edit the files natively in Final Cut.

I'm dying to know what you finaly plonk the dosh for John.

Likewise Tom, I'm very interested in what I buy as well ;-)

I have decided I need another cheap throw away (!) camera like the small Toshiba - but maybe the Sanyo or Samsungs or similar.

And then I need the equivalent of the good old trusty Sony TRV900 or Canon HV30 - a very good consumer camera - and it needs to have some kind of night shot capability.

Ideally these would all share the same batteries somehow ;-)

Does the HM100 share the same batteries with the consumer range of JVC cameras?

(Busy in other areas at the moment but will intensify the hunt next week if not before ;)

PS: I haven't had time to really dig into if I should shoot in 1080 interlaced or progressive with the HM100 so this clouds the smaller camera selection at this stage!!! ;)

OK, I need to order something in the next two weeks, so stressing over this a little. It looks like the best mode for me to shoot in with my JVC HM100 is 1024 x 720 in 50p mode?

However I can't find any consumer camcorders that record in this mode.....

Some of the Sanyo Xacti models do 1024 x 720 but in 60p mode. How much effort is it to convert this to 50p with only a Macbook Pro/FCS etc? Does the conversion take hours?

Other than that, any suggestions?

I wish I could answer your questions - but I can't. It was so easy in the TRV900 days - it was that or a Panasonic MX350, and all to Mini DV tape. Now the pathway is strewn with boulders to stub your toes on, tributaries and side-roads feed it, lay-byes and dead ends make like mazes. (hey - you like that?)

Quite so Tom! I'm more stressed about getting the correct kit and workflow in FCP than I am about driving solo across the Sahara and places like the Congo..... ;-)

Maybe HDV was the way to go after all - the HM100 has a high cost of ownership as cards are expensive (I have 10 * 32GB cards ) and I need 12 * 500GB mini harddrives for the trip - add that up!

Plus there is no easy answer when you need smaller cams (and I need at least 3).

JVC - PLEASE update your consumer line with a mini HM100 that records in .mov with the same resolution options (by Friday please!)

Sounds like you could have used three secondhand Sony PDX10s. 16:9 SD to bog-standard MiniDV tapes. 100 hours for £100, and fresh tapes available in sub-Saharan souks. No HDD failures, no irretrievable SD cards that have got crushed by your seat runners. No fancy HD either, but then who's going to buy BD versions of the trip from you?

Good luck lad. I'm not helping much, am I?

tom.

your best bet is probably getting a couple Canon vixia AVCHD cams, they are small enough, cheap enough and plentiful. Plus they will use the same SDHC cards that you bought for the HM100.
Transcode your footage and drop it on the timeline along side the HM100's footage and that should do it.
Best of luck!
SW

Thanks Steve,

It's all of the transcoding that has got me baffled.

What will go to what easily with good results etc?

I'll do most of the editing and encoding whilst living in my Land Rover in Africa (I have extra batteries/solar panel etc though), so keen to minimize computer time needed - thus my attraction to the HM100 recording in .mov.

What format would FCS 3 take the Canon footage in as, and how would I get this to 50p to match the HM100 footage?

Many thanks!
(Camped next to a lake in Portugal - mobile broadband is great ;)

Is Darrin your pet name John? :=))

Now hop out there and start fishing.

Hi -

I have a Canon Vixia HF10 (same as the HF100 but with added internal memory) -- I can give you sample clips in various bitrates and frame rates.

The camera always records in 1080 vertical resolution, and up to 1920 wide depending on the bit rate. The single-chip sensor is 1920x1080.

The camera records in AVCHD, and in Final Cut you need to bring these clips in via Log & Transfer.

There are NTSC and PAL versions of this camera. The NTSC version can record 60i, 30p, and 24p "cinema" mode. The 24p mode is not truly progressive... it applies a 3:2 pulldown like a movie converted to play at 30fps, but supposedly this can be unwound in some software, but I've never tried it. The PAL version (according to a manual I found online) does 50i or 25p, but not the weird 24p cinema mode.

Three nice things about this camera is that it's easy to find accessory lenses (wide angle, fisheye, tele) cheaply, it has a decent shotgun mic option (for a consumer camera, but it's a proprietary shoe), and you can buy battery packs which last for hours and hours.

Downside: Although there are limited manual controls, they are accessed through a joystick menu on the LCD, can't easily be combined, and are a pain to access.

Contact me if you'd like to download some test clips from my NTSC version.

Thanks Bob, that would be great!

Take the test, then decide.
 

John, please take a look at this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/jvc-gy-h...-door-3-a.html and it may help you decide on a small cam.

OK, you asked for it... (And boy, it turns out that I _really_ asked for it -- I couldn't find my test clips I did over a year ago, so I went out and shot some more.)

Download this zip archive, and save it to your hard drive. If you want to go for maximum authentic results, expand it onto an SDHC card (preserving the folder called "PRIVATE" -- "PRIVATE" should exist at the top level of the card), but I find that as long as the original directory structure is preserved, including "PRIVATE", that the Log and Transfer function in Final Cut will properly find and import the clips.

Archive:
http://www.sqwarellc.com/private/canon_hf10/PRIVATE.zip
(239.5MB)

The actual video files are buried in /PRIVATE/AVCHD/BMDV/STREAM and end in .MTS.

I find that later versions of the player software (for Mac) called VLC can play these files, although the first second or two has digital glitches that I don't see when playing back in the camera.

Note that JVC also stores its files under "PRIVATE" in a folder called "JVC". I've actually had these files coexist on the same card between the HM700 and the HF10, but it was accidental and I can't guarantee that the cameras happily coexist sharing the same media. My cards are formatted on the HM700.

The HF10 has 4 bitrates available. Here's a list, including the reported (by the camera) record time remaining for a 16GB card. (This 16GB card also had about 30sec of HM700 material on it, which ever so slightly reduced the available total.)

LP - "Long Play" - 5Mbps - 6h03m
SP - "Standard Play" - 7Mbps - 4h44m
XP+ - "High Quality" - 12Mbps - 2h51m
FXP - "High Quality" - 17Mbps - 2h04m

There are three frame rates, "60i", "30p" and "24p" which I've previously mentioned.

That's 12 combinations, and I've made 12 clips for you. Each is approx. 15 seconds long, and a card was held up for each one showing the specific settings.

00000.MTS LP 60i
00001.MTS LP 30p
00002.MTS LP 24p
00003.MTS SP 60i
00004.MTS SP 30p
00005.MTS SP 24p
00006.MTS XP+ 60i
00007.MTS XP+ 30p
00008.MTS XP+ 24p
00009.MTS FXP 60i
00010.MTS FXP 30p
00011.MTS FXP 24p

The white balance is set for the overcast conditions, all other settings are auto, and the audio is via Canon's DM-100 stereo shotgun mic, which fits the _proprietary_ shoe on this camera. The mic is set to 90 degree stereo. (The loud birdsong is coming from the top of the telephone pole, just out of the frame).

These cameras are out of production, but they were pretty popular, so you can still find them at some dealers or on eBay, sometimes as refurb, for around $500, as model HF10 or as HF100 without built-in memory. Canon now has newer models, slightly larger and slightly smaller. The larger ones are generally thought to improve on this line, but the smaller ones (HF20/HF200) make too many sacrifices. There's also a model HF11 out there which is basically the same camera with a higher 24Mbps bitrate mode.

The biggest OEM battery is the Canon BP-827. I easily get over 3 hours use per charge on this battery. Some Amazon reviewers report 4-6 hours, but I wouldn't expect more than 4 under ideal conditions.

Sorry if I've turned this too much into a Canon thread, but the question was out there to see if it would make a smaller companion to the HM100 -- and this Canon was my main camera before getting the big daddy HM700.

Give the clips a try and let me know what you find out!

Forgot to mention you can check out a video I shot with the Canon here:
YouTube - Fare is Fair?

It's just YouTube, but you can at least get an idea of how the camera performs in a "person-on-the-street" interview setting, under unassisted backlit conditions. (We were often under transit shelters, making interview subjects dark, while it was a bright day all around.)

For comparison, here's a more recent video on a similar subject I shot with the JVC GY-HM700:
YouTube - MAX Green Line - First Ride Event, Part 1 of 2

So John, did you try out the footage?

Only downloading it now sorry!

I have to go to an internet cafe for large downloads ;-)

That's OK! I just wanted to be sure I wasn't talking to an empty room. :-)

Not at all, one bloke in a very attentive room ;-)

I really don't mind what cameras I get, just want to make the best decision possible to match the 720 50p footage from the HM100 ie: what converts best to 720 50p

So will play over the next few days as much as I can living in a Land Rover!

Have you considered an HMC41? Lowest cost camera I can think of that can shoot 720p50 (might even generally outperform the HM100 for you).

Thanks Robert,

I can't really travel with 2 larger than 'consumer/tourist' cameras unfortunately, and the cameras i am looking for are for sticking in the sand whilst I drive past, strapping to the chassis of the vehicle, handing to kids to run around with etc.

So as no small cameras will do 720 50p, my question is what is the best workflow - will any other format be able to be converted to 720 50p - for example one of the Sanyo Xacti range will do:

Full-HR: 1920 x 1080 (60 fps/ 24Mbps) Full HD: 1920 x 1080 (60fields/sec 16Mbps)
Full-SHQ: 1920 x 1080 (30 fps/ 12Mbps) HD-SHQ: 1280 x 720 (30 fps/9Mbps)
Digital Camcorder | Full HD Camera | VPC-FH1 Specs | Xacti SANYO

So would filming in 1920 x 1080 60fields/sec easily convert to 720 at 50p?

Etc! ;-) I'm trying to figure out the best solution when all you have is a Macbook Pro to use.

Doesn't Sanyo make PAL versions of their little cameras?

You could shoot 1080i50 (with any of a number of small consumer camcorders) and deinterlace (and downsize) to 720p50 using something like YADIF.

I'd recommend AVCHD camcorders like the Canon HFS100 which is a wonderful camcorder, has great image quality, and great progressive modes like 30P, EXCEPT the transcoding involved to actually edit the media. The transcoding takes a bit of time and the resulting file sizes are much larger than the original AVCHD, like 2x (Prores Proxy) to 3x (Prores LT) to 5x (Prores 422).

If you have FCS 3 using FCP 7, you have the option of transcoding them to 'Prores LT' or Prores Proxy, which allows you to edit the files with pretty good quality and speed.

Just remember the transcoding on a Macbook Pro will take some time, and also you might run out of storage and the internal drives of these laptops are not that fast. External FW800 drives are usually a lot faster.

No, for some amazing reason Sanyo don't make PAL versions it seems:
VPC-FH1EBK - SANYO EMEA
I have emailed to ask.

Thanks for the tip on YADIF - new to me - I assume this would be quite time consuming for 10 hours of video for example?

How long it would take to convert 10 hours of 1080i50 to 720p50, with YADIF, would depend on a number of factors, including CPU speed, resizing algorithm, the source codec, and the codec used for encoding the result. YADIF is a deinterlace filter orginally written for MPlayer (if I recall correctly) and has been ported for use as a filter with AviSynth. AviSynth is written for Windows.

I've experimented with converting 1080i60 to 720p60 using YADIF/AviSynth, a couple times, and was quite favorably impressed with the results, but I don't know how practical it might be for you. Do you have a PC available to you?

Thanks Robert,

No PC I'm afraid, I'm living in a Land Rover about to drive across Africa so looking to avoid any extra equipment (or extensive encoding/compression etc).

I think I give up. There isn't any easy answer. Having to convert footage to work with the footage from the HM100 takes away from the advantage that the HM100 offers (easy to get footage into fcp and start editing).

I'm deciding if I can justify the expense of another HM100 or will just set off with the one camera.

Re: Conversion -- Did you try the Canon clips I provided? You should be able to just use Log & Transfer to bring them directly into Final Cut. The import process on most macs I've tried is faster than real-time. Not rapid and direct like the HM-100, but still a supported solution within FC and faster than tape-based. No third-party utilities required.

Thanks Bob, I did and that was very kind of you to do them for a complete stranger!

They came into FCP very easily as you say, but the question then becomes how do I get my HM100 footage (1280 720 50p) and the Canon footage (or anything else) to coexist on the same timeline for editing?

As my project is likely to last 2 years, it will likely contain a few hundred hours of footage at least, which if it is different formats will mean some serious conversion time - and living in a vehicle I only have about 3 hours of Macbook Pro run time each day, if I can manage that at all (I'm in Africa, it's hot and sweaty sitting inside a vehicle at night, lots of mosi's etc etc ;-).

So I don't see any easy answer for my situation except for a 2nd HM100, but I need a smaller camera etc.

Though I admit I haven't made films for a few years, back when MiniDV was so easy format wise. So FCP mixed format timeline and ProRes etc etc is all a mystery to me, so maybe I am missing a simple trick?

Another though: Dropping the 50p side of things would make life simpler with converting footage - at least then in 25p or whatever the footage would be the same size and frame rate, just in a different codec to start with?

<em>Another though: Dropping the 50p side of things would make life simpler with converting footage - at least then in 25p or whatever the footage would be the same size and frame rate, just in a different codec to start with?</em>

I don't know for sure, so someone would have to test this, but I believe that all AVCHD (Canon) footage brought in by Log & Transfer is going to require rendering no matter what format of timeline you drop it on.

However, the renderer is going to be doing the most work decoding the individual AVCHD frames... duplicating those frames to match a faster timeline shouldn't take any significant additional time, so a 25p AVCHD stream shouldn't take (much) more time to place on a 50p timeline than it would on a 25p timeline.

As I'm still stuck using Final Cut Express HD, everything I do has to be rendered after import on an Apple Intermediate Codec timeline, which is a pain.

Are you missing any information/files that you would need to test mixing two kinds of footage on your timeline in your preferred codec?

Thanks Bob, yes 25p may be the way to go, but it seems a shame to own a fancy camera and use it on the lowest setting ;-)

Even my old MiniDV consumer camera managed 50i

I think 25p would struggle with my style of shooting - lots of moving things and camera movements?

I sucked in your Canon footage, via prores a 10meg file became 250meg - via prores proxy it became 55meg (plus you have to keep the original).

I have 12 500gig drives, but they will disappear quickly with backups etc....

So I think another hm100 is the only easy option - but another £2700 is probably too much - I can drive from Morocco to Cape Town on that in 6 months ;-)

Decisions! ;-)