We've all been cross posting in the 2 new model topics. I started writing about the 700 first here, but I'm excited about both. I also have call for a more surreptitious looking camera, and work alone or in situations a larger camera is not practical. A great small camera which is a quality stand alone, as well as a practical B camera which can match a larger "pro ergonmics" camera is a power combo.

Personally I was hoping this would be a bit cheaper too, but if it delivers all the potential inherent in the specs, it will definitely have a place in the market

I'm back in Toronto and gathering my thoughts on the camera. I shot some nighttime footage in various frame rates & gain levels at 1080 and 720 and I just have to take a closer look at the clips.

It would be unfair to actually do a full review of the camera available to us at CES since it was only an engineering sample. Many features (like LoLux) that will be included in the final release were not fully programmed into the firmware yet.

More later...

I think I speak for others on this forum when I say can't wait for your review, Tim. We understand this is a prototype, but I'm anxious to see how it handles low light levels, even wthout the LoLux finalized.
Too bad you didn't have the HM700 to play with.

You are right. No external lens control interface. This is Chris Hurd's pet peeve.
JVC explained to us that this camera was designed specifically as a handheld camera and therefore does not accommodate hard wired lens control. We didn't see the IR remote so we can only assume that zoom will be included.

It looks like the hybrid love child of a Sony PD10 and a Panasonic DVX100.

The other question is: what kind of chroma sampling will it use? Is it still 4:2:0?
I tend to look past the hype and spin. I think without price drop this camera will have hard time competing with other products on the market. The other issue I have it caters to Final Cut Studio. With no BR support in the suite I am thinking more and more about other systems. After all why shoot HD if your output will be SD?

Yes
Not really. It seems it will be compatible with any Mac or PC NLE that is compatible with the Sony EX1/EX3.

There are all kinds of benefits to shooting HD and downrez that I don't have time to get into right now in this thread but the bottom line is that in 2009 it only makes sense to have HD as a master.

Disappointed
 

I am actually quite disappointed in the specs of this camera vs its price. I know an argument could be made for added value with all the different format options the camera can shoot in, but at the end of the day it is still a $4000 1/4" CCD camera. For the same price I have a lot of other options, including a second JVC-HD110 camera which gives me a real manual lens. Panasonic offers a 3 chip AVCHD camera that lists for around $2500- and the DVX100 still looks really good when blown up to HD with impressive color reproduction and latitude.

What I want is an inexpensive b-cam to compliment my HD110. I don't care what format it gives me because I can mix and match formats on my timeline- what I care about is what my output looks like in the end. For $4000 I have a lot of other options that will give me a very nice output when I'm all done editing. I especially don't get why for that much money I wouldn't just go order another HD110.

Not to belabor the point, but:

--have you tried shooting with an HD110 on a Merlin?
--have you shot with an HD110 hidden under your coat?
--have you been happy with the image stabilization on the HD110?
--can you use the HD110 with the stock lens and without a wide-angle converter?
--can you shoot 60p HD with the HD110?
--have you tried putting the HD110, a tripod, a DSLR, lens, radio mics and additional accessories in an airplane carryon that meets international standards?
--have you been happy with the the auto-focus on the HD110?

Obviously the verdict is out. There may be some features not happy to all, such as the lack of a lanc connection.

But if the picture looks good and the encoding holds up, I don't think a 1/4" sensor makes any difference. It does give a smaller, more compact (and lighter weight) lens, that is very good. The 10x zoom is fine for a handheld camera. I don't know how wide the camera goes, but if it doesn't need a converter, and goes a bit wider than the XH-A1, that is great! If the lens get excellent pictures wide open, that is also very good, and if the lens is better than average stopped down, that is also good. (Maybe some of the cost goes into the lens...?) A 1/4" sensor should give better depth of field, which is appropriate for a camera intended primarily for hand-held use.

Maybe extra money has gone into the encoder, or a newly designed CCD. And the camera is true progessive CCD, not CMOS. I have a feeling that being able to shoot quickly in a particular format and quickly off-leading from and SD card will be very good for many people.

I think SAG is correct in holding out, and not giving in like the Directors and Aftra did. "New Media" is here, new delivery is here, and production styles are changing. To me the XH-A1, for example, is an old-style camera in a smaller (but still too big) package. I predict the JVC HM-100 is the first of a whole new generation camera for a new generation of production types and styles.

Even at $4,000 MRSP it has a lot of value
 

Even at FULL $4,000 MSRP it still has a lot of value. 24p handheld in quick to edit 720p HDV/XDCAM EX Native/Quicktime as well as 1080i 1080/24p as well. Figure a $1,200 or so for a Focus Enhancements type of HDD. Think of the Canon with a FE DTE drive and mount, it would be about the same price but a lot larger and still not have the 720p 24p native HDV/Quicktime or the Sony Codex's either. Yes, 1/3 instead of 1/4 would be nice (Sony's $8,000 one is 1/2 chips), but lets see how the footage looks. Also I really think it should have some sort of wire remote. I hate working on tripods without one. But yes, it's does make a 2nd HD110 seem like a good deal.

I expect the street value to drop to about the street value of the HD110 (maybe a little less in time), combine that with the DTE SD cards I think a lot of HD100/200 series users as well as Sony XDCAM-EX users would be snapping these up. If the price could hover just above $3,000 street and have a good lens and good CCD's, it might be a real money maker for JVC and a camera many of us would use to add to our bigger cameras as well as Film/broadcasting students first pro camera in or just out of college.

Have you ever carried HD100 3000 feet up and hung on a rope all day with it? At 3.2 lbs (most likely without a battery) and 5.5 x 7 x 14.4" it's not an "undercoat" type camera. It's smaller and lighter, but not really all that small and all that light. Hd110 or 100 are older types, but they are proven and produce quality picture. Yes, the image stabilization could be better, but we don't know if the new camera will be much of a progress. I flew recently to Canada a few times with HD100. Porta Brace bag will hold all the junk (including AB battery, mics, firestore and SLR). Tripod will never meet carry-on standard, even for security reasons.
Other major issue I have is 4:2:0 and lack of wide angle lens. 39 mm is not wide angle! So again falling short in this department.

We are talking to different things.

Carry on size is 22x14x9 inches, with a weight limit of 13 pounds (Virgin) though most airlines give you a little more weight:
Baggage Policies for Virgin Atlantic

Then jumping on and off of trams in Germany, dodging traffic in Moscow, shooting inside a compact rental car, quickly dropping the camera in a large purse or tourist shoulder carry bag, holding the camera overhead in a crowd with ois and auto-focus, not appearing as a news reporter in a riot, running at full speed... the HD110 doesn't excel at this type of shooting.

For a carry-on tripod I use the Gitzo Traveler and 2180 fluid head. Together they are about 3 pounds or less. I also carry a Gitzo monopod in the same bag (see size above).

It's a tight fit, but here is what goes in the carry-on:
Canon XH-A1
Pentax K200
4 Pentax lenses
Gateway 12" Laptop
500 GB hard drive
SD Cards
A few tapes
Century .6x WA adapter (for XH-A1)
Gitzo Traveler tripod
Gitzo 2180 fluid head
Filters
Remote zoom controller
Cable release
2 pcs. 22x14" foam core
Sometimes 1-3 Electronic Flash units
Small flash light
Some clothes (for padding and emergency)
A few little things I've forgotten


Admittedly, this is a tight fit. The bag is an old Samsonite (worn, not standing out). It will expand when off the plane. The new HM-100 should give me a much better packed bag.

When off the plane I will split the gear into a second bag and I'll probably leave the computer where I am staying.

This isn't possible with the JVC HD-110.

The Canon shoots 60i and 24f, which I use. But I frequently have to use 1/100 shutter speed, because of old lights. The PAL upgrade for the XH-A1 is over $500. However, it is built into the HM-100, giving me the ability to shoot 25p at 1/50 at the least, I suspect.

No matter what one does, the HD-100 is not great for complete inconspicuosity.

It appears to me that if one needs the new features (especially size, formats, PCM audio, SD recording) on the HM-100, it's worth the price.

On the other hand, if one wants a cheap second camera, there's the Canon HV-30. It will shoot 24p, though one has to jump through hoops to remove pull-down, etc. etc.

Jack, while growing up in Poland in the 70's and 80's I participated (both by choice and by chance) in more riots then most people ever will. So even not as a journalist then I know how it is. However this in not the issue. The point is (and this is only my opinion) this product falls short right at the starting line as far as features-quality-price category. For me 4:2:0 chroma sampling and lack of wide angle (28 mm) lens, (and no Lanc) are major issues. This camera is supposed to be targeted for ENG's, so maybe ditching 24p and beefing up other options would be a better idea.
It's obvious to me JVC reps are luring on this website. I would hope they treat this forum not as piss and vinegar board, but as constructive criticism. I would like to have for once a camera that fits my needs 100%. This is a tool, complex and intricate, but a tool only.
BTW according to B&H the dimensions of HM100 and XH-A1 are almost the same, Canon being only about 1 lbs heavier.

The pages I saw show the weight of the JVC camera a little more than 2 lbs. lighter. The weight of the JVC is a bit lighter than the Sony V1U, which is about the size of the PD150.

As far as dimensions, the JVC about an inch smaller in both heighth and width, which is fairly large amount in volume. I think the length is misleading since it seems to include the mic mount on the JVC.

But as you mention, the Canon lens is wider, etc.

I don't know if there will every be one camera for everything. Perhaps the new Red comes closest, with all it's options.

However, remembering back when I worked on movies, several different cameras were always used: one for shooting in the studio on the pedestal, another on the steadicam, another for slow-motion, and so forth.

I'm also not sure that ENG is the intended use for the HM-100. I think multi-camera narrative shot for new media might be a target market. I also think there might be an upgrade already planned for this camera that would explain some of the choices made on the initial camera in the line... perhaps some sort of wireless synch system or low-cost time-code jamming?

One note, if the camera did not have 1280x720/24p and 60p, I would not be interested.

If sensor size is measured across the diagonal then the area is proportional to the square of this measurement and a 1/3" sensor should have almost twice the area of a 1/4" one. In any case, it's clear from currently shipping cameras that 1/4" sensors tend to fall short for serious use while 1/3" is barely adequate, especially in low-light situations. $4000 is too much to pay for an HD camera with a 1/4" sensor when there are better alternatives available at that price; $3000 or even $2500 would be more realistic.

Yes, you're correct if you do the math. However, I've used a 1/4" sensor (the Sony V1U) and it would match up to a 1/3" camera such as the HVX200 (which I have also used), and in fact in many ways I thought it was much superior in overall sharpness (HVX200 users - don't flame me). That's not even talking about 1/3 or even 1/2" sensors of previous eras ---technology and time marches on.

To me the main relevant issue with 1/4" vs 1/3" isn't necessarily with low light, or other factors. It's with being able to limit the depth of field. You can't do it that well with a 1/3" sensor and really can't much with a 1/4" without going telephoto.

Also, as you increase the sensor size so you usually need to increase the size of the lens. To get the equivalent on a 1/3" sensor would also increase the lens, the size of the overall camera, and the weight, taking it out of the smallish prosumer realm.

The proof will be in some test footage in original EXCAM EX format that this camcorder will produce. I can't wait and if it's good enough I'll get one because it really fits with the 'B' camera role especially you have a Sony EX series which has a great workflow for me.

Chip size, Specs and Stuff
 

We'll really have to just wait and see the footage ourselves. But what is for sure is that its amazing to have any of these sub 10K HD Cameras - they all look pretty good, and as long as they have good audio (which this one seems to) any will do.

In fact with all the compression in the delivery downstream, and the way most home viewers have there TV's set up, MANY of the spec / chip size / DOF / 4:2:0 / HDVCAMDVCPROACC whatever is a wash... as long as you have good audio. People will watch it if its compelling, but not if they have a hard time hearing it.

Eagerly waiting to give this camera a try. Fingers crossed for the LoLux.

But that's not really comparing like with like, as the V1 is CMOS, the HVX200 CCD. As far as sharpness goes, the V1 has approx 1Mpixel sensors, the HVX200 0.5Mpixel (though they should be considered about 0.75Mpixel equivalent because of pixel shift) so the V1 should be sharper. That and the smaller overall chip size makes every individual pixel smaller than for the HVX200, so you'd expect sensitiviy to suffer - in practice, being CMOS v CCD allows it to hold it's own with the HVX200.

That said, and apart from DOF issues, an undesirable feature of sensors getting smaller are diffraction effects, which can effectively limit the smallest aperture that can be used.

I'm very excited about the edit workflow that these cameras represent. I was leaning heavily towards buying the HMC 150 although the AVCHD workflow isn't there. But not now.

The prospect of editing native files from SD card into Avid or Final Cut Pro or Premiere without transcoding should have everyone shouting from the mountain tops.

Everything else considered, I think this is a great concept overall. I'm glad I waited. I have money in hand and plan on buying both.

Cheers.

Craig's Supermeet GY-HM100 presentation is online... MacVideo - Camera Technology - Features - JVC introduce the GY-HM100; the world's first camera to record high quality native QuickTime files for immediate editing within Final Cut Pro

I too am very excited about this camera.....the biggest draw is the FCP ready to edit files....but the price is a bit high for the actual specs. The design is straight from the HD10U and GRD HD1.....2 great sized cams.....I really hope they come in at a lower price point considering the HMC150 is $3200+

Can't wait to read 1st impressions!
(I'm hoping blacks aren't crushed and whites aren't clipped- and good dynamic range!!!)

The detachable handle is very appealing. This camera would be great for shooting MOS or with separate sound.

As mentioned in the intro to the presentation, I like the multicam possibilities with this camera. I will be looking for an inexpensive and wireless way to put in synch markers to the cameras and to a small separate recorder.

I don't see the need for timecode synch, but rather synch markers that can be dropped in at intervals or the press of a button from a wireless transmitter.

It would be very nice to have an option to flip the screen to the top of the camera (like a Z1U) when the handle and sound input module are removed.

Stripped down, I think this camera could be great for some high action Merlin shooting, being both heavy enough and light enough for outstanding Merlin use.

This looks like the HD version of Sony's PDX 10 which i used to own. It looks like a great travel cam for doco work when you wish to look like a tourist. I'm very tempted.

These have probably been posted before, but here's a couple of links with more info.

MacVideo - Camera Technology - Features - JVC introduce the GY-HM100; the world's first camera to record high quality native QuickTime files for immediate editing within Final Cut Pro

MacVideo - Camera Technology - Interviews - Craig Yanagi, National Marketing Manager, JVC USA, talks about the GY-HM100

Agreed about size of the cam. Its form factor reminds me of the Panasonic DVC30.

As a legal videographer, I wonder if the HM100 has a date/time stamp feature for use during documentations and depositions. If it does, I'd prefer to go with a QT native format camera like the JVC than transcoding MPEG4 like with the HMC150.

No, the HM100 does not have a date/time stamp feature.

Perhaps someone has answers to these questions:

Where is the built-in mic? I can't see it. Is it on the body or on the detachable handle?

Are there provisions for recording directly from the camera to the BR-HD50? Perhaps directly from the SDHC card connected to a computer to the BR-HD50. For ongoing projects or long-term backup, it would be convenient to use the tape deck one may already have.

Hi Craig -

is there going to be a "L" version of the 700 ? basically just a body only ? then one could move over all their 100/200 parts. then you guys could offer a lower price which might be much more attractive in the current economy.

I'm sure the new glass will be better then the current stock lens, and the VF also improved, but I could live with what I have for a while, and upgrade down the road.

I do hope the camera will have either a built in AB / V mount, or accept the old adaptors.

Thanks for the info, Craig. That said, are you aware if the pending HM700 will have that feature?

But the files themselves are date stamped on the card with a "Date Created" date and time (to the minute.) This shouldn't change no matter how many times the file is copied.

Understood, Tim. But both the Federal and state rules of evidence mandate that a date/time stamp (with seconds) be a visible component of the original recording. That goes for depositions as well as other legal video documentary functions.

For that purpose there would be no workaround. You can't visually date/time stamp the video with any of the other cameras in the JVC lineup either.

In fact I can't think of any modern professional cameras that can do this.

For clarification, the terms 'date/time stamp' and 'date record function' are synonymous.

In SD, the Sony PD-170 and DSR-250 have this feature, as did the Panasonic DVC30. As far as HD, I'm aware of some cameras that do: the XHA1s and XHG1s, HVRZ1U, HMC150, HPX170.

Where is the internal mic on the JVC GY-HM100U
 

Here is the product page, specifications, showing that the camera has an "internal mic" (See Section HD Video Recording, Audio Recording):
JVC Professional Specifications page

Does anyone know where the mic is located? Can it be seen in the pictures? Is it on the body or the handle?

Thank you.

(As a side note, the specs indicate that this camera is both NTSC and PAL, with all the shooting modes for each. However, on the JVC page there is a "U" after the "HM100." Does this mean that there are actually going to be two models of this camera? one for NTSC and one for PAL?)

The mic is literally in the first photo of the links you sent... its on the top of the lens. Follow your link, then on to pictures, then blow the 1st one up.

Thanks! I think I see it now, the raised band with little holes in it on top of the lens.

It looks like one can take the handle off and still record sound as a reference track to match another recording (of a clap or whatever).

I can't tell (and don't know if it's been said) if the lens shade comes off or not so a a wide angle or fisheye can be put on. Skate boarding and other sports looks like a possible market, and the fisheye and extreme wide angle are popular.

Low Light
 

In all the specifications I read I can't see anywhere mentioned the low light capability of the lenses. Does anyone knows about that?

The JVC page says this:

"Versatile Manual Controls
When operating the camera in the manual mode, depth of field can be adjusted by manually setting the iris. Aperture priority automatically selects the correct shutter setting based on the iris selection. Shutter can be manually adjusted from 1/4 to 1/10000 sec. Other manual adjustments include:

LoLux mode -- a JVC exclusive feature that permits shooting in adverse lighting conditions

H detail & V detail Adjustment
KNEE Setting (AUTO/LOW/MID/HIGH)
Zebra pattern which range specification is possible
Color matrix/Gain Adjustment
Gain settings of 0,3,6,9,12,15,18 dB & ALC can be assigned to the "L/M/H" gain switch
Gamma Adjustment which gives rich expression of gradation"

We'll just have to see how that LoLux mode is. I'm guessing it will not be good enough for people who really should have a DP or someone to light something properly (even with only 1 light), but will "fingers crossed" be good enough for getting the shot vs. no getting the shot...

We'll see.. can't wait.

the info is here: JVC Professional Technical Discription page

The Lo lux is an added extra. I mean that every lens indicates how much light needs to be able to reproduce a good image in lux and with what f/stop combination.

The fStop @ Lux specification is based on the camera imager, not a specific lens.

For example, many broadcast Sony Betacam front ends were rated at f8 @ 2000 lux when I started in the business. This rates how sensitive the imager is, not how much light passes through a lens. Speed of lenses is rated in fStop or (more accurately) T-Stop numbers (usually only on Cine style lenses).

I know but the thing is that we don't know what low lux can the camera do.
Does anyone knows?
I mean EX1 is something like @0.14 lx F1.9, +18 dB gain, @64frames