How about a shorts film contest with our HD10U
 

Guys, I have an idea, though I don’t yet know how feasible it is or how to properly implement it. The idea is simply a HD10U short film contest. I think that if we can get a consensus among the willing members to submit to making a short, then we can each produce a five (or no more than ten) minute short. The idea is to demonstrate not just the proper use of the cam, but also real creativity in its use. We could give the contestants thee months to complete their respective films, and then upload them for group critique and discussion among us (judging format to be discussed). It seems like a fun way to generate a lively discussion and frankly to learn indie dv film making by actually doing. If the moderators of this forum and enough of the members are willing to do this, and if we can get space to accommodate about 30 or so submissions, then I think it is doable. The idea is to learn, share and have fun. To be sure there are technical details to be worked out such as costs, format, rating (I suggest keeping it to NC-17), etc., but that is also a part of the fun. I would appreciate any feedback on the idea (note I do not know if it has been suggest before, but even so, I am suggesting it now.)

How about getting JVC involved with some prize's!
I think they would love the exposure of a HD1/10 shorts contest.

I'd be into a contest...and I think IFC or some other cable network might be into running the winner. Who has connections?

Otherwise, we should offer our shorts to INHD and INHD2.

Murph

Great ideas! So let's see if we can't get organized around this notion. With the permission and help of the forum adms I would be willing to help organize the contest. We could appoint a committee of let's say 4-6 members to handle submissions, contact interested vendors, create ground rules, etc. And of course set a timeline for when the actual work must begin and end. I would think companies like Cineform, Lumiere, JVC, Ulead, Sony, Mainconcept, etc, would be interested in this idea. However, whether they are interested or not, I still think it's a good idea, and we should do it for the love of making films and what we can learn from each other by doing so.

Thanks

Dwight

Change of heart here..

If the powers that be want to setup a Short HD contest they should do it because we've started to produce without them. By that I mean what incentive do they have to do a contest when there ain't no HDV shorts online to watch! We can watch 1,000,000 DV films though.

Just my opinion, but let's post and talk about our films. This forum is great for tech talk, but stinks for comments on posted work. It might be because people are busy or whatever, but I'm busy and find time to post comments on videos I download. I posted my latest video, but almost no one commented on it. So, I'm kind of thinking that I don't want to waste my time now trying to help others who post their work. It stinks, but hey 100's of people from here downloaded my video and no one took 20 seconds to comment. I'm not seeing how working hard to help others showcase their work benefits everyone.

Let's the powers that be do it (magazines etc)...they get paid for it!

Murph

Murphy, I agree that the members (especially those with broadband) should try to support the endeavors of the individual members with helpful comments on their work. Along those lines I am suggesting is that we do just that. I don not know how many of the users here are actually trying to create content with their HD10U, but let's face it, many of us want to test our creativity with the cam and have it critiqued by our peers. I suggested a contest because I thought it would be a good and fun vehicle for the members to get into the habit of doing just that. In my view the word habit is the key. In my opinion we currently have the habit of sharing technical information (which is a good thing). It would be nice if we could get into the habit of sharing creative expressions (with the HD10U as the medium). God knows we are all busy, and for many of us filmmaking is a second or third job if not career. However, the fun aspect of being creative is why I am here. The technical stuff is just what I use to help me be creative. I am creating and trying to create fun content, I’d do this whether I show them on this forum or not. However, I think we can all benefit from exposure to our individual creative use of the HD10U medium. But note, I do here you, we should have been more supportive. Myself being no exception.

Just a thought.

Well, I am supportive of your idea for sure. But, let's see who responds to this post you started...I'm betting you and I are it.

I don't know why excitement to see more HD content online isn't there. I'd love to see it everywhere....DV stinks compared to HD in my opinion. I've got a 4 day shoot in Canada starting tomorrow and I am shooting with a DSR-300...wish it were HD.

Murph

I'd figure the biggest hurdle for most HD10 users (including myself) would be the file sizes involved in uploading a full HD clip of any meaningful length....

While WMV9 offers HD resolutions to those of us with PCs, it doesn't appear to be stable enough yet to give total viewing support to everyone who would like to view HD material.

Besides this, the use of downconverted or highly compressed HD material gives a false impression that the HD10 can't deliver true HD footage. Not so good when so many downloads are from people wanting good footage to help them decide between purchasing 3 chip SD camcorders or the HD10. I've seen one of my WMV9 clips quoted elsewhere by a poster (who totally mis-read the accomanying information) as an example of RAW!!! HD footage!!!! After that episode, I have decided not to post any more clips until I've upgraded my connection & server allocation....

Also, most people when pressed, won't offer an opinion on something that they feel unqualified to pass judgement on. I too have noted the disproportionate number of downloads of my clips compared to responses......but, I felt that for those people with the brains & experience to understand what they were looking at, it was worth it.....so don't get discouraged!!!

Don't get me wrong however; I do think the HD short movie contest & Christopher's HD clip share 'pool' are worthy concepts....

Ok, so what I am hearing is that we have technical issues to overcome. I hear that, and my response is that such things are a part of the challenge and fun in making an HDV contest happen. So if we can realistically identify the technical challenges, I would like to hear some solutions.


Dwight

One solution is to downconvert to SD to save on bandwidth. Then, the final three will go full HDV resolution.

Or get a company involved as a sponsor by giving us bandwidth to host the site.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Dwight Flynn : Ok, so what I am hearing is that we have technical issues to overcome. I hear that, and my response is that such things are a part of the challenge and fun in making an HDV contest happen. So if we can realistically identify the technical challenges, I would like to hear some solutions.


Dwight -->>>

The technical challenge is, as far as I can see; producing a 5 min. clip of a format compatible with a majority of operating systems and hardware, that can maintain a high enough bitrate to reduce artifacts, at the full 1280 x 720 30fps HD 16:9 resolution, while providing a small enough file size to make uploads/downloads fast enough that people won't just give up, and server hosting practical....

A 1 min. HD10 m2t/MPEG2 at 1280 x 720 30fps at the full data rate of 18300000 bps (which would be what those wanting to see how the camera performs before accepting it's viability) yields a file size of approx. 140meg. A 5 min. clip would be approx. 700meg!! Using WMV9 would reduce the file size for a 5 min. clip to around 70-80meg, with the playoff being increased artifacts due to the much reduced bit rate. I haven't had too many opportunities recently to check WMV9's streaming capabilities, but that would at least - if it works - make downloading heaps easier, which would solve one bottleneck.

The problem with WMV9 HD is the required processor speed, the lack of Mac playability noted on these boards and it's flakiness in playback on PC if the encoding isn't handled perfectly. Despite these current draw-backs, I believe WMV9 offers the only current HD delivery format capable enough for a contest of the type proposed. It may not suit everyone, but it's a lot closer to full viability than anything else out there at the moment on any platform....

BTW here's a link to a 2mbit WMV9 HD10 clip to see what I mean...
Just download:

Winter Magic Festival - Carrington path - with logo 2.wmv

from the link below:

http://www.pnc.com.au/~scris/hd_images/

Ok, if WMV9 is at least viable, if not perfect, then the next question is where can we get the bandwidth to host the event? After that we need to figure out a fair system for judging the contestants (i.e. technical skills with the cam, special fx (if any), overall creativity, sound, etc.), and of course determine who will be submitting work and how. If we can get this far, then we can consider things such as corporate sponsorship of prizes (or none at all, either way I am indifferent), and of course what if any limitations we should place on the film makers to ensure that the contest is done fairly.


Just some thoughts

I suggest finding a sponsor.

I'll ask my server dude.

hwm

I'll call JVC and some others. Is there any interest on the part of Cineform (David) or Lumiere, Sony, Bill Gates:-), etc? I am not asking for a definite commitment at this point, just an acknowledgement of interest.

Do you have contacts in JVC? I was planning on giving a call to some JVC people I've met in the past.

hwm

For voting, how about everyone who enters gets a vote, and it can't be for themselves. That would make things fair, and you would be guarenteed the best judges, the filmakers !

A few contacts but not much. However, to the best of my knowledge this is the first I have heard of such a contest (involving their product). And since HDV is a new format, and they are currently the front runner, I would think that sponsoring this type of event is a plus for them.

Dwight,

I'll approach them after I work out some ideas.

heath

Good idea! I would also suggest that we add a few of the regular forum participants who do not join the contest and some non-participating industry folks if we can find them. We can simply have a best overall film category or several categories (including best film).

One thought for keeping it a shorts film contest and not a contest for broadband shipping containers, would be to have someone act as a postal service clearing house. It costs $0.37 to ship a DVD disk in a paper sleeve, and the delivery is fast and reliable. You could put the film short onto the DVD disk in many forms, Windows WMV9-HD, Quicktime, NTSC DVD video etc, or even more than one format on each disk, or even the miniDV tape itself.

Doing so, you're not arbitrarily limiting the format to a contest of broadband distribution, size versus quality. Instead, you could have quality and size. You could have the true HDTV quality of a film short in a meaningful size.

And you could cover the postage costs by having a small entry fee for the contest. It's likely to be cheaper anyway because you shouldn't ignore the cost of otherwise paying for a broadband host, which could be $0.10 mb download.

With broadband, we've come to treat the U.S. (Canadian) postal service as an anathema, when instead it could make possible a more appropriate delivery of high quality media at a lower price.

Just my $0.02

Good idea, but that could keep others from watching the footage.

Down converting it to DV would save a lot of money and if we can get a sponsor site, it won't cost us anything. The final three films can be in HD, or maybe just the final one or two.

hwm

It's beating a dead horse, but it would be best to get JVC to sponsor this potential event. I am trying to do just that.



Thanks

I want to get a plan together before I approach my contacts within JVC. I'll work on it tonight.

heath

Re the postal of CDs idea....not too bad for those in Nth America....bummer for those of us elsewhere on the planet!!

I guess if downconverting is the only real recourse to get something like this off the ground, then that's what we'd have to accept. The downside will be of course, people with poor understanding viewing the clips and condemning the HD10 on the strength of downconverted footage.

Perhaps the length of the clips should be more like 2.5min rather than 5min. to preserve HD rez. At least the intent of a longer clip version would be implied (if not manifest), while the advantages of HD would be maintained. A base/max. bitrate setting would ensure viability of downloads/uploads.

BTW, what about those using the PAL PD1 version of the cam?

I am not certain that if we included the PAL PD1 in the contest with the HD10U we would be comparing apples and apples. The idea is to see how creative a group of indie film makers can be with the same camera.

I agree with Dwight and Steve. Shorter clips to preserve HD res. And no PD1 because it doesn't do HD res.

Then no one will see the footage.

My idea is simple, downconvert the HDV footage to DV, either mail or FTP to a specific site, films get put up after an initial judging to make sure it's eligible, then EVERYONE can vote. Films will probably have to be less than 5 minutes.

Final three films can be in HDV and the winner wins whatever (sponsors would be key to that). I'm working on this contest, but it's gonna take a lot more than what we want. Esp. if we want JVC and other big name sponsors on board.

heath

I agree on the effort this will take. As a clarification, voting should be limited to registered forum voters and agreed upon invited guests, so we can control the integrity of the process.

Yeah, my plan would involve going with a seperate web site and people have to sign up to do so (like an email newsletter or something).

hwm

Heath, great idea! My guess would be that the members of this forum would like to be involved even if it is at a different site.

Dwight

Dwight,

Email me privately about this; I think I sent you an email about some ideas!

Thanks,

heath

Hey cool! I was away on a shoot this week in Canada and I just got back! How far along is this HD Fest??

I'm requesting that shorts be no longer than 3 minutes, so we can keep the file size larger and quality higher. After all we're trying to promote this new standard (partly anyway).

Murph

Everyone,

Thanks for all your input. I'm working privately with Dwight on this, as our contacts and experience can really put something together. We're at the very beginning stages, so there's not much to report.

But we are planning on using some of the ideas everyone has posted up. And Murph, 3 minutes and under may be a great idea! But don't ever tell that to my film school students; many of whom feel anything less that 15 minutes ISN'T a short film! :-)

heath

I do hope you all continue to post your ideas about this potentially historic/fun event. Your ideas are great and much appreciated. Heath and I are doing our current best to make this happening happen. As things develop we will keep you posted.

Is this dead? If so, let's see if we can create an online place to post HDV videos.

I'm thinking the Prelinger archive might be a good place. The guy has like a zillion gigs with video now, and he's allow people to post open archive videos. We could probably post our videos up there in MPEG-4 format no problem.

Anyone have an account there already and posted stuff?

Murph

Murph,

I have a couple hundred Gigs of space on my Mac and a pretty fast Cable connection. I'd be willing to give this a shot. What kind of server should we use? I have KDX server on it. KDX is Mac/Win compatible but it does have a shareware fee to be legit.

http://www.haxial.com/products/kdx/index2.html

I could have it up and running in no time but I'd like to use a server that makes sense for everyone and is no cost.

Bryan

Right now, I'm waiting on some people to contact me about the contest, so sit tight. I have contacts in high places, and they seem interested in a contest. But it's a LOT of work.

Thanks,

heath