Super 16mm or HDV JVC Brazilian feature, any DOP out there?!?
 

Hello, my name is daniel.

im almost ready to shot my first feature film.

i only have 100k to start and finish the shooting scheduling.

so, the producer is only giving me the option to shoot it in Digital Dv or HDV. AND I THINK IT IS POSSIBLE TO SHOOT IN SUPER 16MM, but he thinks is not. and hes the producer...

if i shot in HDV JVC, how can i made the transfer possible?

or,

so, the only way for me to shoot in super 16mm is to find a DOP who has a super 16mm cam and wanna try to get this job for a low profit. anyway, if this movie get made in 16mm, it will be a good international alternative movie.

so, who wanna try the Third World production style!?!?!?????

ciao

If you decide to use 16mm, let me quote you on getting that footage scanned to digital at an extremely low price. You can then do a digital intermediate with the high bit depth and end up with a better looking finish!
-Les

Be aware that 16mm isn't a "worldwide" standard really. The only true standard that is played in most professional theatre's is at least in the USA is 35mm. (Recently, I actually had the pleasure of projecting real film in an old theater near my house. I ran The Alamo, Kill Bill 2 and a few others...it still comes in on multiple 35mm reels and you have to splice it all together at certain frames!)

If I were you I'll buy a couple HD10U cameras, so you have a backup and shoot with it. You will save lots of money in production costs.

Also, I'd do this:

I'd buy or rent the right amount of lights in relation to your production. If you shoot a lot outside in good weather you're not going to need that many lights. But, if you have nighttime or a lot of inside work you'll need lots of lights. But, you will need lights for any film shoot you do anyway. (16 and 35 need lights no matter how you slice it)

I would buy a seperate audio rig for capturing all your audio. This should probably be a DAT, but you have a decent budget, so I'd talk with some audio people on here and get an opinion.

Buy a bunch of 4hr batteries, lens hood, boom mic with fishpole and lots of extrad connectors and cords.

Use DigitalMaster Sony tapes or EX - I've found these work really good with no dropouts (yet).

Get a decent playback monitor for the field, so you can actually see what the hecks going on while it's happening.

Consider a matte box, but definately stock up on filters and lense cleaner!

Get a HDV deck (JVC has one, I forgot the model number), so you can digitize the footage while you're shooting the film.

When you digitize from the deck - I would use Powerbook G4 with Final Cut Pro HD, and buy LumiereHD. While you shoot on the camera I'd have someone getting all that footage in there...do rough cuts while you're shooting. (digital dallies are the norm in Hollywood, so there isn't any reason not to digitize and rough cut on indie films) After you get the footage into the computer you can run a line to a standard monitor, so you can check out your footage. It's going to benefit you to be able to have all that stuff right there. You can get a decent cart with wheels and a few chairs. The main crew can basically shoot and cut the movie as you go. The extra time encoding the footage could be cut down if you want get a G5 dual machine instead and mount it in the cart below. (I prefer this myself, so I have everything at an arms reach just like in my edit suite.)

That's all I can think of right now, but also hire an American crew because we always give jobs to everyone else in the world and now we could use some jobs in this country!

:)

Murph

Unfortunately your producer is only budgeting this film through production and is not considering the cost of distribution at all. If he did he would realize S16 is the only way to go and by far the easiest and cheapest as well as the best looking.

But if you have no one with a film camera or who knows how to operate it then that is the real problem. Tell your producer that the cost of transferring dv to film, if that is the intent, will cost him as much, if not more, than if he originated in film first. In most cases, international distributors require film and will not accept dv.

Actually, that's something I hear all the time and read about everyone on the Internet. It's always video people saying they need to transfer their movie to film.

The fact is that making your movie is the only thing you need to worry about and getting it "ready" for transfer. The AFM (American Film Market held in Los Angeles www.afma.com) doesn't care that much if you transfered the movie to film - they factor that cost into buying your finished film. It's going to cost you no matter what, but it's a lot easier to sell your film at the AFM and tell them to deal with the transfers then do it yourself. You need a quality copy of your film to show there (the formats are probably listed on the website), but probably doesn't even need to be 35mm because no one has time to deal with that when buying a film. I bet they even take VHS still. They fast forward 3-5 minutes into a movie and if there is action or something that YELLS "money" to them...they keep fast forwarding another 5 minutes...if they see "money" they keep going...and if they get to the end with enough "money" they buy it. They then want ALL the materials - meaning, all associated pieces related to the project. The MOST important thing is the legal papers. All releases, copyrighted materials, etc etc. They won't even talk to you if you don't have this all prepared. (there is a name for all this stuff, but I forget it...it's a word that means "everything")

Anyway, I'm rambling. But, I know this for a fact that making your movie and keeping extremely good records of everything is way higher up on the list then getting a 35mm transfer. It's just not important if you are trying to get it sold to a distribution outlet. (If you are going to make the festival circuit then ok, maybe you want a print. But, what a waste of money...just play it digitally like everyone else does now. Getting a print made is more of a "hey, I got a 35mm print of this thing...I'm cool.")

I believe all real distributors that you should be looking at actually want to do it themselves anyway. If a buyer wants your movie it's because they expect to make a lot of $$$ of it, so paying for a transfer is not much money to them. I'm talking about wide release movies here too...not your direct to DVD stuff. I'm talking indie movies that actually get in theaters. If you look at the indie film companies pumping out films that we actually see in theaters...they ain't doing the transfers, the distributors are dealing with it. Otherwise, what are the distributors for?? They take your movie (not just the movie now...remember, they want EVERYTHING associated with it in regards to ALL legal issues because it's the #1 thing they look for is a properly prepared film with all transferables.)

I think that's the name I was looking for!! It's called "transferables". Think of it like selling a house...you don't just hand the keys over. You have a stack of documents that are all connected in some way. If you are missing one document the whole deal is shot.

Remember, you can wheel and deal a few ways. But, you will probably be the last one to get paid...the distributor will get paid before you do. They will probably stipulate in the buy that you will only get paid if they make a profit...and that probably won't happen. (it's the unfortunate truth in indie film...it's like 1 in 1000 make real profit! ok, it's something like that...but, seriously indie movies just don't make real profit in the grand scheme of things. they sell these movies in markets that usually barely make it even. but, they all hope for the one that will catch on and bring in real dollars.)

Someone you should contact is the guy that founded Film Movement - Larry Meistrich. He'll probably email you back if you contact him. After talking with him I learned a lot about what I just talked about! He's been in the trenches of film distribution and barely survived. He was successful, yet not really...it depends on what way you look at it. He ended up turning his back on traditional film distribution (even though he's got a bunch of theatrical successes like Sling Blade etc.) and starting Film Movement. Check out his company...it's a cross between traditional distribution and a new way of getting DVD's to a membership. (http://www.filmmovement.com/HowItWor...name=Meistrich)They do a traditional premiere at a theater for certain films, but ultimately they get DVD's in the mail to subscribers who aren't in a geographical area lucky enough to see the indie film in the theater. (that's like 90% of the popular of USA...can't see indies in theaters because they live outside the cities!) It's unique and it's where indie's need to go. I think his estimate was almost NO indie distribution in the theater's in a few short years....Hollywood blockbusters only. It's makes sense because there are 1,000,000 places to watch movies now...even on your cell phone! The movie studios and theater owners want SURE things and indies ain't a sure thing. The trend of sequels, A list actor movies, CG only films (Hollywood is ruining true films by creating CG movies with no actors!! The Shreks of the world with soon take over and I bet in 3-5 years there will be 50-50% split of actor and non-actor movies!! Hollywood will lock out indies shortly...it already has I think.

Our best bet as indie filmmakers is to embrace the cable, broadband and satellite markets. They need to fill up all those extra channels...we'll probably have Short Film Channel's galore in a 3-5 years. I think the home theater is where our final distribution point will be...no need for 35mm transfers there. Hence, my original point of using the HD10u....it'll probably be just as good in the longrun for your purposes!


Am I talking to much?! Probably...

Murph

sure
 

sorry but all of you need to know that this 100k is only the FILMING BUDGET, for the shooting.

the next budget, for post-production, will be around 90k!

so, dont worry about the post. just about the shooting...

and this 90k its including the 35mm tranfer...!

but i still dont know if its possible to do a decent JVC HD10 TO 35MM TRANFER...

anyone?

If you insist on doing a transfer, I read something here recently about it.

http://www.hdforindies.com/

murph

If you're intending on doing a 35mm blowup, then that rules out the JVC cameras.

There is no satisfactory way to get from 30P to film at 24 frames per second.

You would be far better off shooting on S16, or finding the additional budget to shoot on the Varicam at 24 frames per second.

"There is no satisfactory way to get from 30P to film at 24 frames per second."

That can be debated. Programs by Algolith and Twixtor are stated to be quite capable of this feet. It may take some time and energy, and your final product quality will be reflected by how much time and energy. One thing is for sure is it will look a lot better when blowen-up than any SD material!
Ken

i think it is possible to make a trannfer from a HD1 if we process the video on twixtor at 24fps and uncompressed avi.

so we just send the HD to the lab and they do the transfer.

is it possible right? anyone tried it?

anyway, if its going to demand a lot of energy and time, i dont think this process will be good for a feature film... maybe it will work just fine for short films...

thats right?!

i just cant believe that even more than a year after the release of this camcorder nobody tried to transfer the footage to 35mm!!!

?

A transfer costs $400 a minute.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Daniel Moloko : i think it is possible to make a trannfer from a HD1 if we process the video on twixtor at 24fps and uncompressed avi.

so we just send the HD to the lab and they do the transfer.

is it possible right? anyone tried it?

anyway, if its going to demand a lot of energy and time, i dont think this process will be good for a feature film... maybe it will work just fine for short films...

thats right?!

i just cant believe that even more than a year after the release of this camcorder nobody tried to transfer the footage to 35mm!!!

? -->>>

This whole 'transfer to film' thing has me wondering....what is the actual process? Is the digital 'footage' actually 'printed' on film - frame by frame, or does the film get exposed to a projected version of the digital image?
If the later case is true there would be no reason to convert frame-rate at all, and all the concerns expressed about using the HD10's output would be put to rest.

Also, for a feature length film, uncompressed AVI would require massive hard disk space to store. Use of AVI during editing is fine, though render times can be excessive. If I was you, I'd be looking at AspectHD (PC),or Lumiere HD (MAC), for performance and quality in my editing codec with a feature length project.

And, if I was involved in a feature length project using my HD10, I'd be totally engrossed in getting it edited and out to distribution.....rather than cruising the HD10 forums. I've certainly not seen any posts from anyone involved in producing the TV show that is 'supposedly' being shot with HD10s!!
Maybe they're too busy making the show, or just too ashamed of how it's turned out to post anything!!

Daniel,

If you have $100K just as a shooting budget then why aren't you going 35mm? That is more than enough for a 10:1 shooting ratio and a two hour film. You have no transfer expenses, you have a better image and more flexibility and so much more.

To even think of shooting DV is a waste of time.

I'd say 5:1, if he's lucky.

hwm

film test
 

If you want to do a small test, I can shoot out a half a minute or so with an ArriLaser, on a short end, for cheap.
Email me privately if you are interested.
-Les

rob...
 

i was thinking of buying 100 16mm cans, and shoot more than a Thousand minutes, if i have the time in six weeks to do that.

i think it will cost about 10k only in film cans.

but, what about the film camera itself? and the DOP?

and what about the film to tape transfer that i need to get to look at the footage, etc...

im not even counting with the production itself, food, the rest of the crew, cast...

anyway, maybe the super 16mm will give me a good look.


anyone here knows who can be my DP with a super 16mm camera? and really wants to come to brazil to shoot something good (and very different from what they are usually shooting out there)...

maybe your friend DP, heath? what he thinks about it?

ciao

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Belics : Daniel,

If you have $100K just as a shooting budget then why aren't you going 35mm? That is more than enough for a 10:1 shooting ratio and a two hour film. You have no transfer expenses, you have a better image and more flexibility and so much more.

To even think of shooting DV is a waste of time. -->>>

I wouldn't say it's a waste of time...after all, look at 28 Days Later, that had to be over 100k. Anyways, even though this gentleman has 100k to spend, he hasn't mentioned other aspects of his budget yet, so it is impossible to make a decision on which format he should shoot on based on his limited info. After all, there are single movie sets and effects that can cost millions of dollars a piece, so my question is, what are the rest of his production cost? He hasn't mention them yet.

Heath,

I've done it. $100K is plenty for 35mm through post, even at 10:1.

Glenn,

28 Days spent a ton of money and time in post to make that image presentable. Money that would not have to be spent if he used 35 or 16 film.

Daniel,

If you use 35mm, call Panavision in Brazil. They can be extremely cooperative and can find you a DP as well as get you a deal on a camera and lenses. There are plenty of other places to rent all that also.

You can save money going Super16 and get an excellent look, especially with the new Vision2 stock from Kodak. However it will cost to have it blown up to 35 later but much cheaper than trying to get DV to work well that way. With 35mm, you can contact print it and wouldn't even have that expense.

Getting a "video workprint" costs about 18 cents per foot, sometimes less. That is per foot of what you want printed, not of everything you shot.

Would you be paying for a DP to come to Brazil, including expenses? Some come with their own cameras. I'd do it. If I was single and "mit out" kids.

Daniel,

After looking at what appears to be the mechanical process of digital to film transfer, which does appear to be a projected image transfer, I seriously believe the 24fps frame conversion from 30fps issue to be either a misinterpretation of the process, or an attempt to deliberately complicate for whatever profit something that is quite straightforward.

Perhaps you really should consider some HD10s (not the HD1 OK) for shooting your production. Given the higher resolution, the ability to directly edit the shots straight after shooting, a streamlined workflow within the major NLE's without costly conversion hardware and the capacity to control other mediums of distribution directly i.e. DVD and Webstreamed WMV9......etc, etc........

Besides, it would really be worth seeing the reaction if Brazil had not only the first prodution company/crew to produce a HDV feature, but that it also was good enough to wipe the smiles off the Doubting Thomas's faces!!!

The budget...

glenn, the movie is set at night, i think 70% at night, 30% daylight.

70% night but 30% of 70% EXT. NIGHT and 40% INT. NIGHT

its an urban storyline.

and theres just an action scene with cars and a stunt. that the hardest part. and that all.

rob...
 

i dont want a DP for free, i just want one that doesnt cost too much and has a good camera to bring it with him.

for sure we will cover all the expenses.

and for sure we have at least 6k for this DP with the Camera to work with us for 6 weeks.

thats it!

film transfers
 

Steve,
The process is done on a "film recorder", and is one frame at a time. The company I am associated with does this type of work all the time.
You are right about the big deal being made to translate 30 to 24. With the HD10 doing progressive frames, the simple way of converting to 24, frame blending, does a pretty darned good job. Since it is progressive there are none of the tell tale interlacing ( jagged edges ) artifacts to see. I've done the test and it looks very presentable. The biggest problem on the JVC is exposure control and exposure range, no control over that.

-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Crisdale : Daniel,

After looking at what appears to be the mechanical process of digital to film transfer, which does appear to be a projected image transfer, I seriously believe the 24fps frame conversion from 30fps issue to be either a misinterpretation of the process, or an attempt to deliberately complicate for whatever profit something that is quite straightforward.

Perhaps you really should consider some HD10s (not the HD1 OK) for shooting your production. Given the higher resolution, the ability to directly edit the shots straight after shooting, a streamlined workflow within the major NLE's without costly conversion hardware and the capacity to control other mediums of distribution directly i.e. DVD and Webstreamed WMV9......etc, etc........

Besides, it would really be worth seeing the reaction if Brazil had not only the first prodution company/crew to produce a HDV feature, but that it also was good enough to wipe the smiles off the Doubting Thomas's faces!!! -->>>

off topic, film from Brazil
 

Daniel,
Are all films from Brazil going to look like "Cidade de Deus " ? ;)

Well, I hope so.... I think that is one of my top favorite films now!
If you know of any translated pages on how they shot it, I'd love to see them.
Did you know it was timed digital ? ( A Digital Intermediate )
For example, the yellow scenes are a result of digital color manipulation.
I'm sure they used 16mm for a lot of the 'combat' style shooting.
My company can do a digital scan of your film for $6000, and let you do the digital work there. But only if I like your film :)
-Les

Les, you can use babblefish to translate. It's Altavista's translator.

Murph

Cool, they do the language, but I need something to translate from too. Any links for that movie? Amazing how Northern Americans didn't write too much about that wonderful film.
-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher C. Murphy : Les, you can use babblefish to translate. It's Altavista's translator.

Murph -->>>

les, where are you from?
 

if you scan the film, where do we have to edit and can your company transfer the final cut to 35mm?

anyway, i thnk the HD10 would only be please to use in short's.

i think i will get it made in super 16mm.

les, city of god was made by a company here in são paulo. im from the northeast. a city called Recife where there aint a single transfer house or anything, not even a 35mm camera im able to find in the whole northeast.

they made city of god, the filming, for about 1 million dollars. the pre-production till the shooting. all the actors were non-actors before this movie. so, they spent a whole years teaching the people how to act. hehe

anyway, my script isnt a movie like city of god. in a way theres something equal, cause both of the scripts its about CONTRASTS of brazilian society, and in a way, of the mid-class.
i think it looks more like Amores Perros or like Punch Drunk love - as a urban movie about "crazy-normal" people, but without the comedy. sometimes i see something equal to a Hal Ashby movie (Shampoo, or Last Detail)

im still searching for a DP to do the job for 1k a week with the camera.

les
 

when you say the footage from HD10 to a 35MM print looks very presentable, do you mean its better than any other 35mm print from DV 720x480 material?

Re: les
 

Personally I think that DV material looks like a web cam after seeing the HDV. It's just plain out of focus looking.

By presentable, I mean that the 30 to 24 is not distracting at all, even on active looking shots.

The only problem is that the lighting has to be very controlled for the JVC for it not to blow out the brights.

On your question about dealing with scanned 16mm film, I am working on a plugin to allow a low cost edit program , like Prem. Pro to do the edit, with a 10 bit input to support full DI color correction on the first step. After that 8 bits is fine. 35mm prints only show 8 bits anyway, I've worked on several feature films that way. A laser filmout price to 35mm is 30 to 40 thousand. The nice thing is that you get a DVD and HD digital version out of the process at the same time!

-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Daniel Moloko : when you say the footage from HD10 to a 35MM print looks very presentable, do you mean its better than any other 35mm print from DV 720x480 material? -->>>

les
 

how much will cost for a 35mm print from HDV?

i will have a short movie in HDV with 12 minutes long.

how much this will cost?

Printing from a DV source will cost about $300 per minute, so about $3600. DVFILM charges $450/minute for HD. However, they specifically say they can't do a satisfactory job from 30P source.

Swiss Effects doesn't list HD as an option on their site.

I don't know of any film transfer labs that can transfer from 30P, so you'll have to contact labs and see if they can do it.

Re: les
 

Daniel,
I can probably beat that price, or meet it. Output on ArriLaser, I have a hunch the other places hitting a low price point are doing either a CRT recorder, or even worse, a kinescope from a hires monitor. I'm not sure. If you want to see what the 30 to 24 looks like , I can do a DV res test for you too see what it looks like on some motion shots. I'm not distracted by the conversion, but there are the 'film aficionados ' that like to point out the problems. See for yourself, I say ! You decide.
-Les


<<<-- Originally posted by Daniel Moloko : how much will cost for a 35mm print from HDV?

i will have a short movie in HDV with 12 minutes long.

how much this will cost? -->>>

Re: Re: les
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Les Dit : Daniel,
I can probably beat that price, or meet it. Output on ArriLaser, I have a hunch the other places hitting a low price point are doing either a CRT recorder, or even worse, a kinescope from a hires monitor. I'm not sure. If you want to see what the 30 to 24 looks like , I can do a DV res test for you too see what it looks like on some motion shots. I'm not distracted by the conversion, but there are the 'film aficionados ' that like to point out the problems. See for yourself, I say ! You decide.
-Les
-->>>

Les,

I'd like to commend you for having the spirit to give this HDV stuff a go, despite what appears to be the obvious reticence of your colleagues in the Film Transfer industry.
When so many people are 'poo-pooing' this very first attempt by JVC at a low cost HD solution ( I had one guy here tell me it just didn't cut the HD spec. - without seeing what the camera could do - just because it was impossible in his opinion at the price), it's refreshing to find people with the gumption to say "well what if this thing does deliver".
It is to people like yourself that the future success or failure of the HDV format resides.
It may also be damn astute business to be able to provide a service to HD10/HDV users, and get the 'jump' on those of your fellows who'd rather not dip their toes in the HDV pool in case it bites back, 'cause if what you hint at is true....namely that HDV footage from the HD10 is definitely visibly superior to DV when transfered to film; there may be some people who had doubts about feature length productions with this cam jumping on board, who'll need your services!!!

les,
 

les,

how is this process? you get the hard disk drive with the video uncompressed or you do it from the tape source?

anyway, would be great to have a test from HDV source, not dv.

maybe you and your company will enjoy mine short movie made in HDV, and maybe, if you like the ideia, i give you the rights to the short to your company if you do the transfer. and you can sign the short as a producer. is it worth for you?

the short can be showed around the brazil territory in festivals.

anyway, the script is a mix of Roman Polanski`s Repulsion + glen or glenda + the good, the bad and the ugly.

maybe it is too insane?

ciao

Daniel,

I recently met with Kevin Wong a DOP from Canada. He recently completed principal photography on a feature shot with 3 or 4 HD10Us. This is the best footage I've ever seen shot on this camera. He also shot this spec commercial when the camera just came out:
http://www.4lanes.com/reel_523.htm

Kevin also has extensive experience shooting film 16 and 35mm.

I highly recommend him as a DOP should you want to shoot in HD or Film.

With the budget you mention, I would explore shooting with higher end HD cameras such as the Varicam and HDCams.

Here's Kevin's website:
http://www.4lanes.com/

Frederic,

I REEEEEAAALLLY want to see this film. Any timeframe on when it will be released on DVD or even better in the theater?? (I'd love to point people to this when they say the HD10u isn't HD.)

If you could keep us posted that would be great. I'd buy a DVD of this film in a second...and I'm really curious as to how he did the lighting. I'm most interested in that as I'm sure we all are here.

Murph

The filmout process is from a firewire drive. The frames are converted to 2048 Cineons and filmed. When I said DV res for a demo, I was thinking of that for bandwidth reasons. Anyway, for a quick conversion test, I had some high motion HDV of some skate board guys, including some shaky camera and fence detail in the bg. Take a look at the 9 meg 5mbps media 9 file I put here:

http://s95439504.onlinehome.us/skater-at-24.wmv

Tell me your opinion of the artifacts from converting 30fps to 24. In motion, like a real audience would see it. Not paused, movies don't pause. I'm curious what you think. Please don't comment on the crappy hand held camera work, I was just testing the camera out !
-Les

les,

everything looks great, even the hand shake. hehe

the motion looks real good to me.

i just want to know if the filmout, he projection in 35mm will look good (i think it will). tell me, the hdv filmout looks like DV? i mean, do you think the audience can tell for sure it was shoot in digital video?

thanks a lot

ciao

If the lighting was not clipped too much, like that cloudy day shot of the skaters, I don't think the audience could tell.
On scenes with high contrast, they might be able to, if they knew what to look for.
Most audiences are looking for story and content, not camera flaws. I've been to movies where a good portion of the screen was out of focus a little because of a projection problem, and nobody seemed to care. I did !
-Les

With that kind of budget I don't know why you're even considering the HD1OU. Rent a Varicam, edit on thee Mac, and save yourself a big headache. I'm a big proponent of the little JVC camera if you don't have any kind of budget, but the hoops you've got to jump through to get it just right should not be underestimated, and you have the money to rent a higher quality HD camera.

Good luck with it.

a big problem
 

theres a big problem...

i live in brazil. They dont have a HD Varicam Camere here.

oh, yes they have, but it cost more to rent a Varicam than to rent a 35mm camera with stocks.

so...

have you seen Gaspar Nóe Irreversible?

he said that in france is almost impossible to find one Varicam, also.

only the USA dont suffer this kind of thing

ciao