Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Uh - no mention of lower frame rates; 23.98fps, 25fps - isn't anyone annoyed by this? If it's only a 60P/50P format - what's so special about this camera other than the ability to shoot off-speed slo-mo? 60P slowed down to 23.98 or 25fps always looks pretty funky to me - way too sharp.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

But as Matt very well put it, speed, datarate etc isn't everything - there's absolute reliability and a lot of other things to consider.

And he's spot on with the analysis that reliability costs money - a lot of it. And lines get drawn at different places for different types of users. But reliability etc is much more difficult to quantify and cost than simple recorded datarate though, and there's much of the problem.

And in that respect, don't let it be forgotten that the Z100 is a prosumer camera, even if a 4k one. So although XQD may be fast by standards of a few years ago, it's considered a con/prosumer grade memory with all that entails. Note Sony still use SxS or AXSM memory cards on their pro gear like the F55.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

For the AX1 on the Sony site with data rates. Video Resolution : HD: 1920×1080 60P (50), 1920×1080 30P (50), 1920×1080 24P (50), 1920×1080 50P (50), 1920×1080 25P (50);4K: 3840×2160 60P (150), 3840×2160 30P (100), 3840×2160 30P (60), 3840×2160 24P (100), 3840×2160 24P (60), 3840×2160 50P (150), 3840×2160 25P (100), 3840×2160 25P (60)

Personally I do not like slow frame rates so 60P would be fine for me and that is what I will use all the time.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Remember that those are the bitrates for XAVC-S, not XAVC intra. The intra bitrates are way higher than that.

I mean a fixed lens replacement for the 200 with XAVC. Interchangeable is too pricy for me at the moment. (and here's hoping it has the DC IN outside the battery socket)

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

If anybody has the AX1 or the Z100 demo,..could you PLEASE (pretty please?) upload to Vimeo a 1080 crop from the center of your 4k test shots?

Although I cant watch in 4k yet, a good clean 1080 center crop video would give us all a good reference point of the image quality (or just resolution) in 4k.

CT

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

You need the S series XQD cards for the Z100. These are twice the price of the T series. Don't under estimate the amount of data this camera will produce, especially at 50/60P or 4K.

An EX1 or PMW-200 shooting on SxS cards at up to 50Mb/s will cost less per minute as a Z100 shooting HD at 120Mb/s on T class XQD cards (and that's just regular 25/30P HD). Admittedly the XAVC codec is almost certainly a better codec, but XDCAM is still a very capable codec. More will depend on the quality of the images coming off the sensor.

I think XQD is a good media choice for this camera, for the market this is aimed at SxS would work out too expensive per minute. 4K at 60fps or higher is a scary proposition, 64GB cards lasting less than 15 mins. Even with XQD it isn't going to be cheap to run, but it needs very fast media.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Ron Evans wrote "If only it had a touch screen and touch spot focus it would hit all my wants !!"

I would upgrade form an EX1 if a powerful suite of metering and focusing aids were added, including superior viewfinders. The touch spot focus or exposure setting would be very useful and would reduce much of the manual focus hunting. It's about the only way to control an iPhone despite Apple's omission of an exposure/focus lock.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

A manufacturer wants to deliver a working product and make money. How many SDHC cards should Sony test? We don't really know what kind of additional tech is in the Sony SxS, but it may well be that they are selling a higher capacity card that allows reliable recording for the stated SxS capacity. As many don't know, flash memory writes can be delayed as much as 300 - 1000 milliseconds (needed to write that out) as the card reaches 90% capacity.

Apple has been selling more portable devices with a fixed amount of flash memory. Need more? Buy a new device.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

[QUOTE=Jack Zhang;1811526]Remember that those are the bitrates for XAVC-S, not XAVC intra. The intra bitrates are way higher than that.


Yes the XAVC bit rates are likely 4 times the XAVC-S bit rates, instead of a 150Mbps it would be 600 Mbps. Fill a 64G card in short order !!! That is why I am more interested in the FDR-AX1 !!

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Can someone post a link to the specs on this camera - specifically frame rates?

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I have not found any detailed spec on the PXW-Z100 but the information I posted early are from the Sony Consumer US site for the FDR-AX1. Sony 4K/60p Ultra HD Camcorder | 4K Camcorder Review | FDR-AX1 | Sony USA

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

This sounds great, but I wonder how you'll focus it? Hopefully the EVF will be up to it. I've gone from feeling like there were no good options for me for upgrading from the EX1R to having two. Now I'll have to decide between this and the PMW-300.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Thanks Ron, couldn't locate anything like that for the Z100 specs. I'm assuming that the frame rates for it will be identical but at 4096×2160 sizes.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

[quote=Ron Evans;1811559]600mbps is...a lot. But I think the Z100 will also get a long gop codec next year, correct?

edit - yes, the Z100 will get a free, less data intensive long gop codec in mid 2014. I'm assuming it's the same one on the AX1.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I hope you can select XAVC-S as one of the codecs. Need that flexibility in case i'm in a bind for space.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Yes XAVC-S will come as an update next year but won't be available at launch, it will be XAVC I frame.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

For me, the lack of full manual is making me lean towards the PMW-200 fixed lens replacement with XAVC 1080/50p/60p. That has to be coming down the pipes, so that's my next move. 4K broadcast acceptance is still another couple of years away.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

It is a shame the SOny will make Z100 users wait until the middle of next year to get lower bit rate options, this is the major problem with the Z100 (assuming image is fine) that prevents it from being a universal workhorse.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

A fairly random selection of factoids...

On frame rates:

This is a 'world camera', so supports 50/60Hz.

24fps is (according to FCPX) 23.976 ("23.98" in the menu).

In 25fps mode, you get 1/3, 1/6, 1/12, 1/25, 1/50, 1/60, 1/100, 1/120, 1/150, 1/215, 1/300, 1/425, 1/600, 1/1000, 1/1750, 1/2500, 1/3500 - is anyone reading this? - 1/6000 and 1/9000.

In 24fps mode, you get

In 60fps (89.94) fps mode, you get 1/4, 1/8, 1/15, 1/30, 1/60, 1/90, 1/100, 1/125, 1/180, 1/250, 1/350, 1/500, 1/725, 1/1000, 1/1500, 1/2000, 1/3000, 1/4000, 1/6000 and 1/9000.

There's 24/30/60 and 25/50 modes for DCI 4K, QuadHD 4K and 1080 resolutions - I don't *think* there's any odd gaps there - but please take note that my loaner is running a fairly old beta of the camera firmware, there may be some changes.

There's the usual numbers (very reminiscent of the FS100) for S&Q motion - yes, S&Q at 4K!

One should mention that the Z100 has a WIFI facility (borrowed from the F5/55?) and a camera control app that enables remote control of the camera via tablet. NOTE WELL: no, this is not going to provide a 'wifi EVF', but it does provide a sort of Camera Control Unit, so you can control recording (not just rec start/stop), camera settings (shutter, f-stop, focus, zoom, white balance) and other functions. However (and I haven't been able to confirm this yet) I don't think you can add 'essence markers' or mark shots. This may be a limitation of my early software, but I don't see these functions in the camera's menu structure.

On the body, yes - there's a separate AC in, so like the EX1, you run off AC with a 'backup battery' should someone pull the plug, you can change batteries whilst plugged in, and so on.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Matt,

Hope I didn't miss this earlier in the thread, but what is the extent of manual control, and what auto functions does the Z100 drop?

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Great info Matt - Thanks! Yes we are reading it!!! - as I noticed you missed off the 24p shutter speeds by accident (in your list in the post above). I can easily guess them but I'm only really interested in 25p and 50p personally.

Really pleased to read that the AC input is not hidden inside the battery compartment like on some of the newer PMWs - silly move that was and I'm glad Sony have listened. Pity the handle is not able to swivel from what I can see.

This cam is very interesting, but I'm still wondering just how poor this thing will be in less than stellar lighting conditions...I am probably still leaning towards a PMW-300 as a replacement for my trust EX3 when my baby eventually dies - hopefully she'll still keep going strong for a while yet!

It's early days and when we see some decent real world footage from this cam it'll become clearer (at least in my mind) but Sony sure have been spitting out some interesting cams to cover off almost every niche this last 12 months!

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

The controls are very much like the NX5 - but in the 'fine print' (and having got used to this on the FS100/700) it's a little bit more twiddly to set a 'fixed' white balance - you have to dive into the 'Paint' mode and set it there. A bit like the EX1.

So, yes, the lens is a bit 'fly by wire' and there's a little bit of latency on the iris. I preferred the 'manual' zoom to the rocker - maybe all that time with the Canon 24-105 has paid off.

Although there's a sort of TLCS, it's not got the finesse of the EX1 (don't let the iris go beyond f8, don't go above 9dB gain and so on).

I've not checked the audio limiters yet - the Z1's audio was great and the limiter was unburstable. The EX1's were... not so great. Noisy, and a truculent limiter. Great advert for the joys of a Sound Guy.

Biggest gripe so far: no histogram. A couple of Zebra patterns, but no histogram. Certainly no WFM! You really will have to keep one set of Zebras for 100 (or 109 if you dare). I found it very easy to overexpose - but then this isn't a finished unit.

OIS feels more Z1-like than EX1-like, a good thing. There's push-auto for focus and iris (but note that there's no TCLS rubber sheet - though you will be nagged for ND at appropriate times).

ATW speed can be set, and there's 'shockless' switch between the presets that's really helpful if you're dashing around a large venue with daylight and fluoro.

There was one cheeky little feature of the Z1 which I can't quite see if I can do on the Z100 (if I can't have easily dialled in white balances) - assigning a couple of buttons for 'upping and downing' the preset WB by a reasonable 'notch'.

This is a CineTone camera, not a CineGamma camera. Bother. So, I bet there's going to be the same game of people cooking up recipes to help tame the highlight compression and open up the dynamic range. This time, instead of having one central pot of Picture Profiles, you get to save the WHOLE CAMERA STATE, and move between them. You can have up to 64 of them (in theory - it's greyed out on my unit). Better still, these are stored on the right hand SDHC card, separate from your media, so most of the time your camera will have that slot filled. Yes, updates can be installed via this slot, but most of the time it will be 'your camera settings'. Good to see that separated from the footage.

You can't record to two cards at the same time, but when the AVCHD recording for SDHC in the left hand SDHC slot comes on line, one could record 1080p for now and 4K for later, or record 2x HD at the same time albeit in two different formats.

Sorry, drifting off away from 'dropped auto features'. But hey, it's a Sony Handycam. All the usual videographer 'lifesavers' are there. If you tape over the 4K and ignore some of the finer points, it looks and feels and works like a Sony NX5.

I'm going to be in 'random stream of factoids' for the next 36 hours - apologies in advance.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I think the markets for the PMW300 and the Z100 are very different. Even the PMW200 has a more ruthless optimisation for the 'broadcast stringer/fly-on-wall-docco/reality-tv gigs. The Z100 gets you a camera that's easy to live and work with, plus some 'expansion' to the average videographer's portfolio.

And I think it's a big move away from 8 bit to 10 bit - that's important. 4K isn't just about resolution, it's about a wider colour range, a wider contrast range. Rec709 is a TWENTY YEAR OLD STANDARD, and 4K moves us on - BT.2020 will be bandied about, I'm sure.

BTW, 422 10 bit HD looks phab on 4K - so I think it's important for the industry to 'gee things up' on that front (quiet at the back, Canon).

Sorry to keep banging on about it, but check out Malcolm Gladwell and his famous TED talk about spaghetti sauce. There is no one perfect camera. There is one perfect collection of cameraS. You can get a 20% share in one market with one product, but you can go for 50-70% share with a range of products that capture the ends of the bell curve too.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

[quote=Glen Vandermolen;1811572]Yes it seems like Sony will give the Z100 add the firmware in the AX1 and that would make it a very nice camera.Both cameras in one. Next year it would be the camera to get. But not sure I want to spend the extra money or wait until next year !!!

I am just going through Matt's latest post and one comment is my experience with the NX5U is not to let the iris go beyond F5.6 as the image gets soft and for my comparisons with the CX700 and NX30U I have becomes inferior. I expect it will be the same with a similar size sensor and lens. I keep my NX5U at F4 or more open. My normal range is F1.8 to F3.4 just like the data code says on the small camera in semi auto. Clearly the sweet spot !! I use negative gain and ND filters even in the theatre at times !!!

The NX5U has picture profiles that I assume are now in the paint menu. Will read Matt's posts again.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Just read Matt's post again. As far as gain is concerned I keep my NX5U at less than 9db. Going to 12db means filtering with Neat filter. On the CX700 and NX30U with the newer sensor they are still very usable at over 21db so this may also be the case with these new 4K cameras too. The camera looks to have the same rubber plug for the LANC remote control. Does it have this port ? The assignable button next to it is assign to expanded focus on the NX5U is this the case too.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I can't provide any comment on the Gain situation other than listing the numbers (-6, -3, 0, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 and 21) as I'm not able to really judge picture quality on my early beta version yet.

But what I can tell you is that, yes - there's a LANC socket and your existing controllers should work just fine. Assign 7 is also marked Focus Magnifier, which is exactly what it does, and it does it whilst recording. There is also an Iris Push Auto button where your pinkie finger 'could' be. I've not developed the muscle memory for this yet so it feels a bit awkward, but I'd rather ride the aperture ring rather than push a button. IMHO. :)

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Matt. The Z100 and AX1 seem to have both a host and peripheral USB interface just like some of the Sony Handycams. Do Sony say anything about the use for these ports ? Considering the amount of data it would be nice to be able to connect up large SSD or hard drive for long form recording especially for 10bit 4:2:2 other wise one would be changing 64G cards every few minutes !!!

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Yes: there's a big 'Type A' USB socket and a small 'Type Mini-A' USB socket in the left hand rear panel.

The Mini plug definately allows you to connect to your computer, where the camera switches into 'USB Storage Device' mode and you can access the XQD cards directly. However, I think (!!!) this is USB2 not USB3 - so you're going to be buying a USB3 XQD adaptor pretty quickly. Good in emergencies though. I had it plumbed into my Mac, it all went smoothly, and the 4K rushes slipped into Final Cut Pro X like a bar of soap in a hot bath.

Now, here be dragons... I may get this subtly wrong... but...

The big Type A USB socket is interesting too - you can attach a USB storage device to it and the camera can copy the contents from its XQD cards to it. I haven't tried this, and the only info I have is a little bit of PowerPoint that points to it saying 'USB Host'. You could do something very similar with the FS100, and whilst it could power a USB dongle, it wouldn't power a USB spinning disk - also, at USB2, it could take 45 minutes per card.

This feature may (or may not) be absent from the first release of the camera, as a 'future upgrade'.

I did ask if it could be a streaming video output (could it look like a webcam to WireCast or other streaming services?) or a way to record to external media, but I think it's a no. Yes, I do keep asking about this - the Z1's firewire (given enough Gaffer Tape and exclusion zone round the hardware) straight to disk was brilliant. Yeah, fine, there's ninjas, but... Sigh. Happy days.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Data code for the CX700 and NX30U have shown a max of 28db I think so the range of settings is similar. Just like the NX5U they like putting in the negative gain to make 0 look more sensitive !!! At these max gain settings the CX700 and NX30U as still more usable than the NX5U at 12db so we will have to see how these perform at 4k in low light.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Can you even guess, and I know images are embargoed, if the Z100 will give as versatile an image as the EX1/3 did. They even did features with them. Then same cams on docs and weddings. Even broadcast. The last Swiss Army Knife cam. Is this the same?

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

The similarity to the NX5U may be slightly more superficial - different sensor (!), different processor (!), and so on. Again, usual warning - I can't offer any judgement on picture quality, but I have "noticed" (<-- big air quotes) that it's about a stop darker than my EX1.

My method was to set up zebras at 60% on both, zoom onto flat area of tone, set shutter, gain the same, look at difference in aperture - hardly ASC style testing, but hey. Dining room table stuff.

Also, I don't see a dramatic difference between shooting 4K, Quad or HD - the EX1 gives you an extra stop for 720p.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

It may well be doing a bit better than the NX5U to EX3 comparisons I have available then. Was a little more than a stop slower. With better noise performance it should be better than the NX5U then. AX1 looks like a very nice successor to the NX5U can't wait !!!!

The hard drive unit for the EX1/3 is very useful. Maybe we will see a similar unit for the XQD interface if the USB is not usable.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Well here's the thing... EX1/3 has CineGamma, the Z100 has CineTone - immediately, one can predict all that tedious mucking around with knee and black levels and gamma and the rest. We need to get this camera's dynamic range pegged first.

My waters tell me that it will not be filmic, it will have a reality feel - not video-ish, but HD-ish. It will reward people who muck around with the paint controls and control the highlights, who can light nicely, and it will bring back pictures that look good without the need for 'grading'.

Just like the Z1's HDV made for great SD, I'm, erm, guessing that the 4K will make great HD that's full of detail and punching above its weight for a corporate/event image. It's not going to be anywhere near the F5 territory, but the 10 bit 4:2:2 I-frame recording is going to make a difference. The EX1/3 has a bit of (cough) 'texture' to it, which can waste a bit of datarate.

Sorry, talking in circles here. I can give you a 'definite maybe'. :)

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Matt, you are right, "We need to get this cameras dynamic range pegged first."

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Anybody care to speculate how many lines of resolution these two cameras would resolve?

Would 1500 lines be easy?

With Bayer and Nyquist issues calculated, would 2000 lines be out of the question at best aperture setting?

CT

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Depends on the lens, but with good normal deBayering 80% of the sensor resolution is a decent first estimate: hence 80% of 2160 lpph - so 1728 (probably more realistically around 1700)

Note that's for luminance. Chrominance will be somewhat lower.
I'd be amazed if anyone got that....... :-)

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

With due respect, if we're into counting the number of photons dancing on the head of a pin, don't forget that Sony do a very nice line in 4K Cine cameras - F5/55. I fear that the lens may be the limiting factor here.

Remember (oh sheesh, I'm going to sound old now) when the Z1 came out? HDV? I distinctly remember the moment: DSR570 shooting DVCAM, Z1 shooting HDV, downsampled to DV50, then pushed through a really early Colorista. The DSR was actually better, but in 80% of our shoots we couldn't afford a DSR, and with the Z1 i) the shoots would happen and ii) we could do Colour Correction on them. I could see the difference, I could argue for the DSR570, but would the client?

Fast Forward to the Z100. If you're shooting narrative on a microbudget, Black Magic's got you covered. But here's the beef: would you prefer the BMCC or the Z100 if I got you to cover the Notting Hill Carnival by yourself?

What will the camera resolve? Probably not as much as some cameras. But if you downsample its 4K to HD, a lot more than others! LOL

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Forgive me if I misunderstand, but it sounds a little like you think the F5/55 should be superior in predicted resolution, at least in terms of the sensor alone?

If so, it's not true. Neither is it true for any Bayer 3840x2160 sensor - the best you're likely to get out of them in terms of luminance resolution is about 1700 lpph. This is inherent in the working of the Bayer sensor and the deBayering process. Figures vary, but comments like "halfway between true sensor resolution and 50% of it" and "about 80%" seem the norm and generally accepted. One things for sure - you WON'T get 2160 lpph out of such a sensor, be it an F5/55, an PXW-Z100, or one from anybody else of those dimensions.

What I'm NOT saying is that it must therefore follow that the an PXW-Z100 is therefore just as good as an F5/55. That would be to ignore lens issues, but most importantly all sorts of other factors such as diffraction limiting and dynamic range to name just two. What I would say is that because of the sensor dimensions, the MAXIMUM resolution EITHER camera could be expected to give is around 1700 lpph.

Practically, then I don't disagree with the practical points you make with reference to Z1 and DSRs. I was just replying to a straightforward "what resolution can we expect" question. And 1700lpph needs to be seen as a maximum figure for any 3840x2160 sensor - a camera may meet the figure in centre frame, but not at the edge, due to lens issues, for example. What it can never do is exceed (roughly) that figure - and that's as true for an F5/55 as for a PXW-Z100.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

If it's using the normal Sony Cinematone gammas and 709 with knee it should be around 10 stops which is is pretty good from the approx 1 to 1.5 micron pixels (given the lenses focal length the active area of the sensor may be about 1/3").
The EX1/PMW200/PMW/300 pixels are roughly 3 microns, F5/F55/FS700 roughly 5.6 microns.
As there is a direct correlation between pixel size, dynamic range, sensitivity and signal to noise ratio, even though this is a back illuminated sensor (which will help make up for the light lost in the bayer filter) I think the numbers above will tell you where the Z100 and AX1 will sit. Noise reduction has improved in recent years so noise can be better masked although this comes at the expense of smear and some image softening. But noise reduction becomes less and less effective at higher gain levels.

Can't help but observe that the specs for the NX5 lens and Z100 lens appear identical: NX5U f = 4.1 to 82.0 mm (equivalent to f = 29.5 to 590 mm at 16:9 mode, f = 36.1 to 722 mm at 4.3 mode on 35 mm lens)
Z100 f = (equivalent to 29.5mm to 590mm)

But Sony are not publishing the actual focal length for the Z100. Is this because it would tell us the actual active area of the sensor????

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I have never scaled down 4k video for delivery to HD before. Now, I know this is a complex question and I'm not quite sure how to word this;

When shooting in 4k, the image "noise" or "grit" or "dirt" should be very fine and detailed. Now, in theory, when it is scaled down to HD, the noise should become "smaller" and less noticeable?

Or....

Will the noise be a certain "size" based on the surface area of the entire sensor and not the resolution or density of it?

That's a strange way to put it but I'm trying to think of any advantages of deliberately shooting 4k for the purpose of HD delivery. (noise "perception" is reduced??)

Does that make any sense? lol