Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Well said Craig, I totally agree. Also agree the global shutter is an important advancement at this price. You have pointed out good reasons for the BMPC.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

I've been working with 4k for a couple of months and even when displayed on a 1080 display the difference vs HD is not small. The difference between raw vs jpeg/mov/mp4 etc is enormous so being able to shoot 4k raw for $4k is a no brainer. Throw in global shutter and the ability to use good lenses... I had to think about it for at least 10 seconds before placing my order.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Hi Duane,
The C300 and C100 also capture from a 4k sensor, and downsample to 1080HD. Viewing on an native 1080HD panel is still HD, no getting around Nyquist laws, 1080 LW/PH is the rule.

Not arguing value here, or global shutters and good lenses and raw workflows. But the 4k down sampled difference on an HD monitor would have to be small, or at least achievable with HD with similar raw workflows.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

From here on I'm doing 4k projects and down sampling only until 4k displays become more common. Then I'll be able to go back and render 4k masters when needed. Can't do that if the original footage is HD.

I don't know what to say about HD vs 4k viewed on a 1080 monitor other than I can see the difference from across the room. In fact I can't believe how archaic my ex1r footage looks which to me is now unusable.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Totally agree on the "4K pop". In fact it is nearly a 3D experience. I believe that has something to do with micro contrast, as I read an article concerning the Leica "pop", and the conclusion was that the Leica optics and sensors had better micro contrast than many others and that was the reason why pictures taken with an Leica had this special look.

To my eye this applies to 4K as well. So it is a combination of optics and sensor. I have tested the 4K JVC-cam. Nice camera, but the optic and sensor did not give any 4K pop outside the sweet spot. The combination of a not fantastic optic and 8 megapixel crammed into a 1/3 " sensor was not optimal. When the noise reduction kicked in - which it did quite quickly as the 8 megapixel on the sensor did give very low sensitivity - then the image did get smeared = no 4K pop.

I my book this means that 4K cams need a big sensor and proper optics. This makes me think that the 4K BMDCC should have absolutely fantastic 4K pop with Leica M-optics.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

I have such a feeling of déjà vu right now. So many of the same conversations when we moved from SD to HD. In fact I bet we could search on here find old arguments and change SD to HD and HD to 4k. No need to think or type.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Although three things have changed since the SD to HD discussions: The economy (worse for many I think), the codecs (better for both recording and delivery) and the growth of mobile (small screen).

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Anyone have any thoughts about using the Metabones Speed Booster with the BMPC camera?

from DP Review:

"What is the Speed Booster?

As we reported recently, the Speed Booster is an adapter that allows for a full frame lens to be mounted on APS-C or Micro Four Thirds mirrorless cameras. There are two reasons why this is very big news, and both revolve around the optics inside the adapter. Firstly, Metabones claims that by reducing the image magnification, the Speed Booster produces roughly a 1.09x focal length multiplier, promising a nearly full frame field of view on APS-C. The second claim, as its name implies, is that the Speed Booster increases the lens's speed by a stop, turning an F2.8 full frame lens into an F2.0 optic that allows for low light shooting at a lower ISO sensitivity."

First Impressions: Metabones Speed Booster: Digital Photography Review

There has been much talk on the BMCC forum about using this device on the original BMCC M4/3 camera, interested in opinions of whether it might work on the BMPC camera to allow more variety in lenses, f/stop, and full frame look.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

We've discussed this elsewhere so I'll only say I've shot about a dozen sessions with the JVC 4k which have all been outdoor interviews or scenery. At zero gain, 60fps and an 8x filter the camera looks pretty sweet. I tried one indoor interview but it doesn't do well with low light. The BMCC should solve that with the 35mm sensor and the ability to use good lenses. The JVC has a decent balanced audio stage, hope the BMCC will too. BTW the JVC has a 1/2" sensor not 1/3".

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Try the Canon C100/300 for 4k down sampled to 1080p POP.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Canon C300, 1080... $14,000

BMCC, 4k Raw, global shutter...$3,995

I'm not understanding the thinking in suggesting the Canon.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Sure you can use it. A 43 mount is typically a 43 mount. You will never get close to the look of full frame. Still a good option however to get just a bit wider. Your lens options for Nikon tend to be a bit limited compared to the ranges you can find with M43 lenses but there are some options. there is an 11mm Nikon mount that should be super wide even on the BMPC. Kind of what you gain with the Speed poster adapter gets negated by the extra crop factor of the camera compared to M43 sensor but yes it will help. So instead of that 11mm looking like a 15mm compared to using it on the GH3 it may continue to look like a 11mm on the BMPC by using the Speed Booster adapter. If however you used that 11mm with the Speed Booster on the GH3 that same 11mm would act like a 8mm. So on even playing fields the GH3 will always be able to get wider.

But yes if you add the Speed Booster to the BMPC you may get back to where the GH3 is in terms of field of view but never better and no where near full frame. Keep in mind that is full manual only with zero auto control including aperture. Since that 11-14mm lens is a newer lens it has no aperture ring on the lens so you will have no control. I'm not even sure if it would work since some lenses close their apertures when they are removed from the lens. If you have to use older Nikon lenses with aperture rings good luck finding one wider than 24mm in which case you might as well just use native M43 lenses.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

There are a few Nikon lenses with aperture rings wider then 24mm.
You have the 18-35 and 20-35 zooms.
There is the 18/2.8, 20/2.8, 24/2.8 and the huge 14/2.8.

Some of these are cheap and plentiful, others cost more then they are worth.

But as you say, Nikons are not the right lenses for the ultra wide look on the BMPC.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Duane.....I think you are focusing on the 1080 vs RAW thing...and it is soo much more than that. #1 would be functionality....the C300 is ready to go out of the box (add a card and a lens). The battery that comes with runs 3-4 hours, the cards record much more time, the camera sees in the dark (you'll need 1/4 of the lights you'd normally use), NDs are built in, function buttons abound, XLRs built in, and in post, the codec is basically the equivalent to PRoRes422 and flies into Premier, Final Cut, and even AVID. You will save time & money shooting with this camera and is why the camera is the hottest rental camera in town for over 1 year....and the rental price is holding (it usually drops after 6 months).
On the BM, it is not a functioning camera out of the box...you have to add 1) an audio recording system 2) a battery system 3) a higher level monitor 4) some sort of cage to have #s1, 2, & 3 mounted with the camera, and more...
Now, in comparing the "picture taker" in each camera, the Canon chip is far superior....super 35 sized (vs basically a 16mm size), much better low light(best of all cameras) and very little "grain" at the higher ISOs (noise comes up much faster on BM)......
Also, there is no delivery problem with the Canons while it is still an issue with BM.....
When buying a camera, its most important to get the one that fits your needs. RAW is much like 4K in that it sounds nice, nice to have the option, but does one really need it for the jobs one is working or being hired for.....and do you have lots of time and money because that's what you'll need in post in dealing with either one.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

To add to what Jim said, and don't get me wrong...I think the BMPC is an exciting product for the price, (I pre ordered one) but it's really not in the same league featurewise as the any of the 12k+ cameras on the market. There's a great article that covers a lot of the "need to knows" with I think some rather telling comments from the Dan May, President of BlackMagic....he essentially says they made a conscious decision to sit between the pro cameras on the market and the dslr crowd....essentially not offering many of the features available on cameras like the C300 so they could get to market quickly and NOT have to charge 10k for the camera. It's a completely different paradigm. I also think we cannot take too lightly the workflow issues relative to 4k raw. RED seems ahead in this area, but only with a very expensive set of tools. Focusing on the low cost of this camera juxtaposed to it's RAW output lays out pretty quickly the conundrum this camera creates. You won't be using that Raw much unless you've got a lot of time and money on your hands.

Frankly, I don't think Canon gets enough credit for designing a system as simple and elegant as the c300. It's like they took a page out of Apple's book. Don't give people features that they and the pipeline aren't ready for. I use the C300 in situations I would have never dreamed I could use a camera two years ago. And I've definitely used it more than any other video device I've ever owned. Perfectly. functional.

------

Oh and Jim...just a little correction the new BMPC has a super35 sensor not 16mm.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

I was talking about the "old" one.......

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

In addition to what Jim and Barry just said, remember that Philip originally mentioned the C100 as well, which retails at B&H for $5,499. It has the same (or very similar) sensor as the C300 and many of the same features mentioned by Jim. And, as Tom mentioned earlier, both the C100 and C300 are capturing from a 4K sensor, then outputting as 1080p.

I think that C100 and BMCC 4K can definitely be compared in terms of price (once you kit out the BMCC to match the features in the C100). It mostly seems to come down to two things:
(a) Do you feel you have a genuine need to shoot 4K?
(b) Are you prepared to invest the extra time (and therefore money, if you are charging for your time) into the post workflow with a BMCC? Remember, with a camera like a C100, you can set your look beforehand with a picture profile, then expose it correctly and shoot it. This tends to minimize any post time needed for grading.

This is all just my opinion, of course.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Save the sarcasm... I own their current camera and there's a lot wrong with it. If I thought anyone from black magic was listening, I'd write a list.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Well....I wasn't being sarcastic , so much as I just find it hard to be truly negative about a company that has only been producing cameras for 1 year now, and their second version is offering all these options at these price points. Its not as if I could just go out and buy another camera at $4000 with 4K, S35, Global Shutter, Compressed Raw etc. It wold have been an unrealistic dream just 2 weeks ago.

But yeah, nothing is truly perfect, and theres always room for improvement.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

And exactly how did you feel $3000.00 was going to give you the perfect cinema camera? We have to be a bit realistic here. I used to buy DVCAM cameras for $12,000.00 and they still had their faults. I think too many have become insanely spoiled and entitled about what they should get in a camera for a couple of bucks. Even RED has its faults and a decent size list of them.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

I understand the argument but I've purchased my last hd camera, no matter how good it is. I'm already working with both raw and compressed 4k so I understand the pros and cons. For what I do, the higher resolution of 4k is worth the trouble. Being that the Canon c300is likely to depreciate at least one BMPC the day it's delivered, I think there's less finacial risk in ordering a bm. As mentioned, the BMPC has a 35mm sensor not 16mm as you stated so its low light performance should be better than the 2.5k version. I'll try one, if it sucks I'll sell it and move on. By that time there should be others to choose from.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Guys with red Epics getting in line to pay $9500 just to upgrade camera sensor, and nobody seen a single frame from it yet. So S35,12 stops, 4K, double format, global shutter for four thousand dollars? - it's impossible go wrong.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Exactly. HD has been a fine format but it's being replaced right now. If you want to be the guy who forks over $14k or more for last decade's technology go for it. I love that BM is pushing the ball forward and as long as they do I'll support them, quirks and all.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

The advantage in the BMPC's low price is that you can get your ROI faster. It's a lot less painful to upgrade a $4K camera every year or two than it is for a $14K camera.

As I may have mentioned before, even if one is still delivering in 1080 (as most of us are no doubt) the ability to reframe or stabilize without blowing up the image is, in itself, a resolution gain.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

We are entering a age of disposable recording heads. Inexpensive and with limited lifespans. Glass is more expensive and retains its value. Recording heads like the BM personal camera will be obsolete in a few years, even the BMCC and the BMPCC, but who cares? You got your value, and it was for an ever decreasing price of entry.

Come on, $1k for 1080p RAW. Use it and then loose it when 4K heads drop to $1k, and they will. But do not wait. The key is to use it, and not worry about future value. The journey is its own reward.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

I don't want to go off topic but since some of us are talking about the viability of 4K in the Home entertainment market I thought this might factor in one's thinking about camera purchase.

http://www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/628-you-can-now-buy-a-50-4k-tv-for-$1299

And the 4K $1299 monitor at Tiger Direct. Who knows what the quality is or whether it's just "spec bait."
Seiki 50 Class 2160p 120Hz LED HDTV - 3840 x 2160, 16:9, 120Hz, 5000:1 Native, 6.5ms, 3x HDMI, VGA (SE50UY04) at TigerDirect.com

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

I went back and re-read your post to see if I'm missing something. Did you really mean to say there is no audio system or battery in the BMPC? And that it must have external monitors and cages before it can be used? I understand you sell Canons but most here know those aren't accurate statements. BTW, the only difference between XLR and a 1/4" TRS balanced cables are the plugs, otherwise they're identical.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Disclaimer: I own this camera, so my opinion comes from first hand, in field production use.

Simon
Don't mean to jump on you but there is a flaw in your logic... it doesn't matter that they've only been making cameras for 1 year because there are decades of camera building r&d to draw upon. It's like they built a camera without ever having used one. It's one of the most poorly designed cameras I've ever held.

Thomas, first, I don't care about the perfect camera, no such thing exists.

Next, implying that I'm naive, spoiled and entitled, is, well... naive. I'm non-partisan, anti-fanboy and unlike most don't give my opinion on something unless I actually own it.

Also, I don't care about the price. $3000... $5000... $15,000... if a camera is poorly designed, it's poorly designed. The places this camera fails are all simple and cheap to fix. Would they add to the price? Sure, a few bucks. But personally I'd rather pay $500 more for a camera that is a lot more functional.

Let me put it this way...
Someone built a Ferrari for $15,000... but they put the gas pedal in front of the passenger and the shifter in the back seat.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

"Let me put it this way...
Someone built a Ferrari for $15,000... but they put the gas pedal in front of the passenger and the shifter in the back seat."

That analogy in reference to the BMCC is nonsense.

If you don't like the form factor, that's fine - a matter of personal taste. But to intimate that the BMCC is not a functional piece of equipment is ridiculous. It is very capable of making gorgeous pictures. I have personally used this camera for a couple of months now and find it one of the better cameras I have used because:

1. It can be rigged out with cage, matte box, rails, follow focus, pre-amp, v-lock or Anton-Bauer batteries to make for a very capable tripod rig that makes some awesome footage

2. Or you can leave it stripped down to capture some really nice footage from locations where almost no one asks to see your permit and subjects don't get the jitters being shot by a Red or Alexa rig.

It is clear Dylan, that you don't like the camera and that is fine. But to lead folks into thinking the camera is not functional with that analogy is just not accurate. It IS a very fine tool that records 13 stops of latitude, 12 bit raw as well as ProRes and DNx, all in an inboard recorder that uses many off the shelf SSD drives. Very revolutionary.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Speaking to a distributor who just came back from miptv, she had a few conversations regarding 4k. Just chatting but she mentioned on their end, a producer who has a 4k master may in fact increase the years of sales generated by two to three times.

If you're producing for TV, a 4k camera at 4k$ might make financial sense.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

I think this is a very reasonable point.
My $.02 - it all comes down to what you do with your cameras.

If, as seems to be the case with many (most?) of the original BMC buyers, you're all about indie film making with a future hope for return, then rigging and utilizing the plusses of the BMC make sense 2.5 or 4k.

If you're out in the field producing billable projects everyday or every week then it's a different set of considerations. For instance we were so disappointed in the AVCHD and lack of 60p on the C100 that we nixed it and bought a pair of GH3s to add 60p.
But now that the price is $5500 and we have the slow motion - the C-100 looks a lot more attractive because of it's ability to get such a great in camera look.
We've just signed two deals that will have us in the field shooting 14 promotional films in all kinds of outdoor conditions over the next 7 months, in addition to a few TV campaigns.
As a small company, the first thing I thought was "there's no way I can spend the time CCing all of this work for delivery the way I have the last several projects."

Suddenly, getting a great in camera look and having a super fast, efficient post work flow has huge advantages...maybe even critical ones for pulling it all off.
Despite my frustration with what I see as intentional crippling of their technology, Canon delivers a very solid in-camera look with the C line and very functional camera systems that also make a big difference producing dozens of hours of footage on deadline.

My assessment is this.
The C camera runs circles around the BMC in terms of design, ergonomics and fast production and probably equals the IQ as far as current 1080 deliverables. And delivers right out of the box for editing if you like.

The BMC is great if you want/need to spend a good deal of time in post, have time for the extra workflow issues and are working more on set or with more controlled circumstances. It delivers a beautiful image but it's a pretty basic production tool.

The Canon C camera is a highly evolved, highly efficient production tool that provides a great image.

The 8 bit vs Raw comparison only matters if you want/need to do a lot in post, and even though I've spent more time doing so, I often miss "just shooting the damn thing" and moving on to the next project.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Where did you see that the C100 has the ability to shoot 60fps or slow motion?

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

I'd add the following unusual observation.
Looking at both the B&H and Adorama sites the Canon C100, C300, C500 are all listed specifically as "Non Returnable." I find that an unusual policy. Given it's specific to these cameras and not other Canon cameras (or other cameras generally) something must be a foot. This can also enter into someone's purchasing decision. It's not clear why this is happening but it's certainly a consideration when one has to consider ROI on their camera purchase.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

I'm not sure if you're asking me that, but the C100 has neither ability.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

Craig, the C300 is the "Number One" Rented Camera! So B&H doesn't want you to purchase for your project, shoot 5-7 days of footage and then return the camera.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

I know, that's why I ask.

"But now that the price is $5500 and we have the slow motion - the C-100 looks a lot more attractive because of it's ability to get such a great in camera look."

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

The GH cams give the slo mo so they can concentrate of pic quality with the C100s. We have used Hero 3 Blacks in narrow mode to get slo mo and time lapse to complement out team's C100 footage.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

I was saying we are all a little spoiled when it comes to cameras today, myself included. There are plenty of people who don't consider the camera poorly designed. Maybe it is for you but for others it is not.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

If I could get a new Ferrari for $15k, even if the gas pedal was in the trunk, I'd have already ordered at least two. So in some ways that is a good analogy for the BMPC.

Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera
 

You have to read the whole post Bob <g>. I say how we bought a pair of GH3s for 60p and now that we have slow motion.... I actually mean "we" when I say we...not the royal we.