Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Well, the EOS 7D is a non-1-series body that has two processors, but it doesn't do *that* function, no.

Shutter effects on EOS-1D X
 

Smart thinking: 18K RAW future-proofing!


You aint going to hear any 'clack clack clack at 10 inches of rain per hour. Though you could have silent movie or voice-over. What concerns me is the combination of rolling shutter plus lens wiper effect.

The following link sheds some light on shutter life:
TikiRobot!, Mai Tais and Blinky Lights, Ahoy! Real-World Average Shutter Life for Canon 5D and 1Ds mkII

With stop-motion at 12 fps, rated shutter life should give 9 hours of shooting; and average shutter life 18 hours. Shutter replacement might cost $300 to $400. Cost per click being much much much cheaper than Chris suggests. That means I can afford to include a crate of shutters when I buy the camera.

I have to agree with Chris. I would even go further: The 1D X beats the lower price lower spec Canon DSLRs on cost of ownership; robustness; and quality of output.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Judging cost by the click is mileading, especially if your primary interest is video. First if you going to shoot 12p video, with 1DX, it's better to opt for 14p who doesn't wear the shutter at all. Second, a pro photographer, even with digital cameras, on average, doesn't exceed 100 shots per day. Meaning around 30-40000 clicks per year. Thus even the shutter of a 7d, will outlast the product circle of the camera. For video oriented users the shutter life is irrelevant.
Regarding the 1DX, I think Canon's move to end the pixel war, has to do with the recent affordability of medium format cameras. It has tailored the new model more as an action camera so maybe will enter the studio market with a larger format zillion pixel sensor.
The video capabilities are optimised for the video journalist and event videographer. With such high iso, they can stop down and achieve DOF comparable with a 2/3 camera, if they want. They will also benefit substantially with new multicam features.
I believe 1DX biggest asset, is the quality of the photographs it takes. Something we have to wait 5 months to affirm.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Sorry but that's way, way off by a factor of ten. A photojournalist can *easily* shoot 1,000 images
per day... easily. I'm not a photojournalist and I'm certainly not a pro, but I just shot an airshow
(requiring high-speed burst mode) two weekends ago... I wound up with more than 1,000 clicks
on Saturday and over 1,750 on Sunday, and I thought I was being conservative.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Some people were born for video :)

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Chris, what was the shutter speed on the 2 that are belly to belly ?? I don't have my CS4 installed so I cant get EXIF

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Baaah

Don, you mean the one where they're canopy to canopy? That was 1/5000 at f/8. Which is not the correct combination, by the way (told you I'm not a photographer).

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Chris, I have written "on average", implying on a yearly base and taking into account all possible photo assignments. You don't shoot everyday 1000 pics all year long. Furthermore not all photographers are photo journalists. Not to forget that nowadays most pros have more than one body, because with digital, changing lenses can be risky, due to dust accumulation on the sensor. I believe my number is valid.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

I didn't fully explain myself as to why I think your numbers are so far off, Emmanuel. Prior to the 1D X, there was the 1D line and the 1Ds line. The photographer who bought the 1D (not 1Ds) series camera chose it primarily for its frame rate -- its 10fps burst mode. The other big selling point is its all-weather body, but the frame rate is a primary feature. The 1D camera (and its Nikon equivalent) is selected by sports photographers and photojournalists precisely because of its burst mode. I'll bet that you have no more hard data than I do, but I stand by my assertion that any photographer working in news or sports commonly finds himself or herself easily shooting 1,000+ frames on a single day's assignment on a fairly regular basis.

I have known for many years a pro photographer in my town who is contracted to shoot local school events at a nearby university and a local boarding school. I've seen his wall comps, where he shows in the school hall several easels worth of index prints from which to order copies... an event such as a graduation ceremony that lasted a few hours yields close to 1,000 images if not more.

I can live with the assumption that a studio photographer using a 1Ds may not shoot more than 100 photos per session, but I'm pretty sure there are more 1D bodies getting a regular workout than there are 1Ds bodies used only on occasion.

Also, with regard to the 1D X for "video only," I have said before in this thread that anyone who is interested only in shooting video, and not taking photographs, should avoid the 1D X since in all probability the new video features of the 1D X will most likely find their way into the next generations of the smaller and considerably less expensive 5D and 7D bodies (and hopefully even the Rebel as well)... even though the difference in the cost-per-click ratio is not very great.

The 1D X is first and foremost a photographer's camera. Therefore cost-per-click is indeed the correct way to look at price vs. durability.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

I think the 1D line is only merged temporarily. For 2011 Canon had to chose between making a high speed/ med res or a med. speed/ high res camera. They chose the 1Dx to hold onto an important group of pro shooters. The specs of the 1Dx kill the 1DsIII.
I don't think merging the "1" line is so much an overriding strategy as where they've ended up at this point in time.
They probably have a heck of a lot in design and production right now. As a result perhaps we are not seeing an ideal product release strategy on high-end still photography. We'll see what they've been up to in the next few weeks. It's likely the very early 1Dx announcement is to pacify pro still shooters ahead of the pro video targeted product about to arrive.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

I think the 1Ds line is definetely dead and for a reason.

Pro PJs/Sports shooters need a very rugged, weather-resistant, dual-card, good at high ISOs and very fast camera, with just as many pixels to cover a double page/A3 but not more.

On the other hand, those that need a lot of resolution for higher-end advertising or HQ prints, shoot in MUCH more controlled environments and are often limited to the speed of their strobes, being therefore wasting all the features of a 1D body.

Canon might have experienced this first hand. As the 5D2 came out, mostly everybody stop buying the 1Ds, as they didn't need all those features, just a decent, high MPx FF camera.

Hasselblads are neither weather proof nor fast.

Next high-res Canon will be a 5D/3D, with more or less video features.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

During my briefing of the 1D X, Canon USA said themselves that the 1Ds is indeed no more. It's
gone, permanently (except for whatever unsold stock remains in retail inventory). Meanwhile the
1D Mk. IV will continue to be made in small batches for the next several months until the 1D X
finally ships next year. This leaves the 5D Mk. II as temporarily the only full-frame body in the
current EOS line, until the 1D X starts shipping.

Canon USA told me that up to this point, they could produce *either* a full-frame 1-series
body (the 1Ds), *or* a fast-frame-rate 1-series body (the 1D). Those days of "either - or" are
gone forever from the 1-series line, as the 1D X -- and whatever models follow in the next
generations -- offers *both* full-frame and fast-frame-rate capability. Best of both worlds,
in other words. I would look to Nikon to follow very soon in this manner as well.

Part of Canon's marketing message is that the "X" stands for (among other
things) crossover, merging the 1Ds and the 1D together into one camera body.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

All I'm sure about is that the "s" name will not continue, and that they likely will only have one camera named "1D".

A 1DXs would be just a sensor swap and flipping a few firmware switches. They don't even have to change the mirror mechanism anymore.

I believe the marketing people were clearly instructed to eliminate any expectation of a 1DXs as Canon has an increasingly long "to do" list. And in fact there may very well be no set commitment internally to make a 1DXs like camera yet. They may not have the fab capacity in the next year or more to make another high end sensor.

But if Canon is giving up the prestige of a high mp pro DSLR, with what are they replacing that high status position? They've come out with a brand new line of superteles, yet they don't plan on a top-end camera with pixel density to exploit all the new lenses?

A possibility is that the 1DX will move up in mp to match Nikon and Sony, and they'll introduce a 3 series as the "number 2" camera. But that's mostly semantics.

The performance and price gap between the 1DX and the 5DII is too big. Canon's always been careful in hitting important price points. Giving up the high price point (was the "s") after working years to be competitive at the top isn't likely.

Should be interesting. Are we at the beginning of significant new pro imaging product line, or is Canon in decline?

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Don hit on some good points.

Sony and Nikon will release 36MP cameras next year (D800 and A9x) in addition to Sony releasing 2 more FF cameras including one to compete with the 1D. However, all future FF Sony cameras will be SLT (translucent) with OLED VF.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Well said. End of story.

I still stand by the fact that most of the video I shoot has audio. When I don't care about the audio, my Canon 7D makes some amazing photos, but the rest of the time I want a camera that has real video & audio features. The AF100 / FS100 / F3 all have real audio features like XLR inputs, P48 power, mic / line switches. If you're a still shooter, get a DSLR. But if you're going to spend over $5k on a large sensor camera to do video, get the AF100, FS100 or F3.

Doing video on a DSLR is like going to Home Depot in a Prius. You're going to have a lot of stuff hanging off the roof, trunk & windows to bring home all the materials.

If you take a pickup, van or SUV to Home Depot & you won't spend an hour in the parking lot trying to figure out how to get your purchases home.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

I do think we're in agreement that the era of DSLR as video camera is ending. I got my hands on a 5DII in Dec. 2008. That's a long time ago.

But I'm sad when I look at how Sony has apparently crippled the VG20. Without true competition among equipment makers the natural free fall of price/performance in electronics doesn't happen. Without Red in the low cost space Sony is going to make sure we can't fully exploit the prosumer hardware they sell us.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Ding ding ding!

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

This depends on if you are an event shooter, or narrative shooter, etc. You cannot judge everyones needs on what your needs are.

In one recent thread, in a post by Charles Papert, we saw how he rigged a Sony F3 for a shoot. That camera had more stuff hanging off of it than you or I have ever had hanging off my 5D. And I am betting, but don't know, that they also were shooting double system sound. And of course, with modular design seeming to be the future of video cameras, in the narrative setting at least, it is actually a better practice, to separate your sound capture from your video capture for synching later. That way you don't run the risk of the camera contributing a problem to your sound capture, and you are limited to whatever sound limitations are on the camera.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Dylan Couper's enthusiasm for shooting "strings of stills and then double them to make clean 24fps and skip all this "video" nonsense..." may need to be tempered by this statement by Angela Nicholson at Hands on: Canon EOS-1DX review | News | TechRadar UK
"We weren't able to accurately time the maximum continuous shooting duration of the sample model, it varied a bit, but was somewhere approaching 10 sec."

Damn!
Dylan's idea seemed pure genius.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Pft, when I shot my short film on the 1D mkII, I only had about 6 seconds per clip. Loads of time. :)

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Perfectly Hilarious - well put!

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

B & H list the 1DX, no price listed. If I read correctly, 60P/60i is missing from 1080. A surprise for a journalist camera.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/827036-REG/Canon_5253B002_EOS_1D_X_EOS_Digital.html

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

You're right, no 1080/60P.


Info from B&H site states:

Video Shooting File Size: 1920 x 1080 (Full HD), 1280 x 720, 640 x 480
Frame Rates: [1920 x 1080]: 30 fps / 25 fps / 24 fps
[1280 x 720]: 60 fps / 50 fps
[640 x 480]: 30 fps / 25 fps

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

What is it that you put on you DSLR rig that you don't put on a "normal" video rig?
Before I started to shot video with DSLR I didn't pey much attention to the sound, I used the auto mode on my XL2 and it turn out ok. Now I need to put more effort in sound and I get a better result now. Before I didn't use an external monitor, I only used the EVF, but now when I got one I would use it on another video rig too. I got a matte box now, but don't really need it, but it is got to hold filters.
I don't know if you rig (maybe you don't shoot DSLR) your DSLR rig as a Christmas tree, but I keep my rig tight and no extra.
For me DSLR video is not over, I will shot on my 7D for atleast 6-12 mouth more, maybe upgrade when a 5DIII would be released. My 7D have made me a better shooter and my clients are accepting what I give them. During this last mouth I hade UW pic in two TV programs.
I love that I can shot high res still and got HD video at the "same time".
It's been proven so many times that DSLRs work, and it will still work...

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Actually Chris, I generally have MORE stuff hanging off my DSLR than we currently have on the F3, and that will be even more exaggerated when the pending firmware update with the F3 occurs (capturing 4:2:2 s-log with only one SDI output on the camera is currently requiring a distribution amp to send video to the viewfinder and onboard monitors, but in the next version of firmware this will be alleviated).

Just for fun, attached is a retread of that F3 pic and also my 1DMKIV from the pilot of the very same show, earlier this year. I think that was the most gacked-out my1D has ever been. From the front to the back (2nd pic): O'Connor O-box, DP6 monitor for operator, Marshall monitor for the AC, Preston MDR for the remote focus, Blackmagic HDMI to HD-SDI convertor, Blackmagic downconverter to feed the Dynawave SD transmitter (just under the handle), wireless receiver for confidence track audio, p-tap power splitters and DIonic 90. While some may think "why do you need all of that stuff", the answer for me is that this is what it took to transform the 1D (or 5 or 7D, which I would also use depending on the shoot) into what I considered a non-compromised shooting package. For a doc-style setup, I might have a few less of those things but I might also have a Zoom H4N onboard for self-contained sound, and other times an HD transmitter, so it never got too much more stripped down than this.

What's essential for me may be Christmas tree lights for others, but it depends on one's workflow and working style. I do know that when shooting handheld or Steadicam with my 1D setup, the center of gravity was exactly where it should be (sat perfectly balanced on the shoulder, for instance) and still weighed less than 20 lbs, so kind of perfect. I'd rather have 20 lbs of balanced weight than 8 lbs of front-heavy weight.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Cool, Charles !

Point is, in any set up I've seen on most any narrative shoot, their will be a wide choice of things that will be hung from the rig to meet the particular needs of the shoot. Seems to be liberal use of tape, ties, and sticky back velcro. Its adaptation and ingenuity at its finest. And its rarely a pretty thing, unlike the pimped out rigs we see some proudly display some times.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Charles, if I could ask a question it would be much appreciated.

If you were to shoot the same shot with just the existing oem camera, what would suffer, I can imagine audio right off the bat, but image wise what would be wrong and how different would it be ??

Thanks

"http://vimeo.com/31175496" Canon Europe rep talks about 1DX and why somw features are what they are.

P.S. take out the quote marks on the link

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Here's the about the bare minimum you need to get a DLSR up to speed with a "normal" pro video camera:

-External audio recorder, Zoom or whatever
-External monitor and/or LCD loupe.
-shoulder rig (debatable depending on camera)
-fader ND or mattebox + ND filter set
-shotgun mic + mount

That's $2000-$5000 worth of gear, and 4+ lbs, plus shifty ergonomics at best, since you have to figure out a way to add it all in and balance it. Yuck.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Don, I'm assuming you are referring to the 1DMKIV setup.

So, if I stripped this down to the 1D and lens (in this case the Zeiss ZE, what would be different? In terms of the actual image quality, nothing would change. In both setups, light goes through the lens and onto the sensor. Achieving the various shots themselves and incorporating the system into a working set is another story. An outboard monitor for the operator is important so that they can always see what they are shooting, whether the camera is on the ground or on a jib over their heads. The AC uses his monitor as a focus aid along with the Cinetape, Hilty, tape measure etc., and the Preston system gives him more range of motion and precision with the travel of the focus ring. I have long believed in limiting my "exposure" to the HDMI connector so the Blackmagic convertor is a must; feeding the onboard monitors and sending a signal to video village for the directors/producers (and my engineering monitor) is essential. That director likes using a handheld monitor so the downconverter and transmitter serviced that requirement. For efficiency's sake, everything is powered from a single battery (including the camera). The single item that potentially presents an image-improving aspect would be the mattebox; the use of creative filters as well as the eyebrow and side flaps to eliminate flare. Theoretically that could be achieved to some degree with screw-on filters and a french flag, but not as efficiently.

Working efficiency also translates into more time in the day for additional setups or takes. My rig took very little time to convert from studio to handheld to Steadicam mode, because everything was already incorporated (remote focus system, etc). For handheld, we just slip the handles on the front of the rods. For Steadicam, we pull the onboard monitors. We didn't even have to change baseplates.

So: all of the extra gear is required to integrate the DSLR into a true production environment with minimal disruption to the existing workflow. If there was something else I could introduce to improve the image, I would have done so. In fact, I make a slight compromise in using the 1DMKIV over the 5D in situations where the 1D's low light capability were critical; I think the image from the 5D is slightly better but the loss of HD monitoring when rolling was an ill-fit for many shoots (no-one can confirm critical focus) so I made the compromise to use the 1D.

I have shot a little bit here and there with a bare camera and lens, and while it is sort of liberating to have such a compact package, I instantly start to suffer with the little built-in monitor and having to get my eyeball to it (fine if you are at operator height but otherwise, uncomfortable). And the limited throw of the lenses combined with the monitor makes me nervous focus-wise. I'm never quite sure if I got it. It's great if I need to stuff a camera into a tight spot, or "steal" a shot, but for standard shooting, it's not a good fit for me.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

and to clarify and add to Dylan's post, prior to the DSLR's we never saw HDMI outputs; every pro HD camera used the HD-SDI standard. So working within that standard, you will need an HDMI convertor and that will affect the choice of onboard monitor as well. Using the loupe on the viewfinder disqualifies because it precludes the option of external monitoring, a restriction that no pro camera presents.

It's possible to work with HDMI and use onboard splitters or the newer looping monitors (and many people do this), but one has to carry a stack of backup cables and go through them like expendables. HDMI is a headache!

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Awesome. thank you Sir.

Do you think the LAN connection can be used for viewing in the future ??

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Try renting HDMI cables out... :)

I was going to add "HDMI splitter" to my list but you're right on with the HDMI to HD-SDI converter.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Agreed, I go through HDMI cables like I used to go through video tape. I tried a couple of those hinged HDMI adpapters from mini HDMI to regular. Idea of hnge was to relieve strain on camera port, At least on the Canon DSLRs, I think it actually made things worse. And they tended to break up too.

Interestingly, I as of yet haven't had an issue with the HDMI port on my Canon's going bad. Has anyone ?

One of the issue with firewire on my Sony was that the ports there were easy to kill.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

New mic is something you "need" for any camera.
Most camera don't got a big screen for viewing or focus, so you need that for other cameras too.
Shoulder rig is depending on typ of shooting, not anything you need.
Filter holder / matte box is something you need depending on lens and you would need it for more than just DSLRs.
External audio IS something you need for DSLR, and you need to sync in Post. That is not something you need for most cameras, but it is good in some situations.

So it is not that much diffrents between a DSLR rig from a, say FS100

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

The key words here are "true production environment". And this is why I think the enthusiast like me and many otheres can put up with the DSLR to get the images we get. In many of the productions we do, it a one man band thing. Often, we shoot, direct and edit. I know what I can fix in the edit. I pull my own focus, either with a follow focus using a Marshall monitor, or without one, using a manual focus ring on my 35mm prme lenses and an LCD magnifier. Generally, I can tell if we got the shot right. Guy on the boom can tell if he got the audio right.

On occasions when I have a director to answer to, we can easily do one of several things. Pull the chip after several takes and play back at a monitor, take the chip to a lap top for playback, or connect the camera to a monitor and play back.

So this raises a question in my mind. Is the production workflow that Charles is used to and that has become engrained in the production community during the days of film, an efficient workflow in the age of digital capture ? Charles if you could change the production system in the digital environment and weren't stuck with someone elses dictates, what would you do ? Would there be any changes ?

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

I don't think it's anything to do with film as such. The chances are that film, before the days of video villages, could've had less people hanging around than modern digital sets. The costs are higher because you've got an expensive actor doing their stuff and producers want to reduce risk of losing a shot. There's also a lot more politics involved than if you're shooting something for yourself.

Doing most things yourself can also be done with film, although it's easier with Super 16 than 35mm. Certainly the costs are higher for the stock and processing, but theoretically you can shoot with just as small a crew as with digital. I've shot 16mm film drama with 3 people in the crew including the director and recording sync sound.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

All cameras need additional equipment to meet specific production requirements. Sure, a DSLR doesn't provide everything you want with an ENG camera, but put it on a jib for narrative work and its small size can be an advantage.

What I really want is a camera that automatically applies make up and provides catering services. ;)

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Ha ha that's right. And if anyone is planning a bank heist, Nov. 3 will be a good day to do it.

Cheers.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

Some interesting information on the 1DX in this video from Dan Chung.


While we all would have liked clean HDMI out and 1080 60p I think the canon rep in this video makes it clear why we aren't seeing those features. With reference to clean HDMI out he says "we're still in discussions in Canon about conflicting between the EOS and video market".

So as a company Canon is still working out how to deal with these sort of features across their still and video divisions. They clearly still want to sell both sorts of cameras and so some features have been left off the 1D X.

The other interesting point in the Dan Chung video the Canon rep says that the new implementation of the H.264 codec "increases the file size by about three times". So if we do the math on the current bit rates that would mean around 150Mbit/s.

Re: Canon USA Introduces EOS-1D X Digital SLR Camera
 

I have a hard time believing Dan will be putting a 1DX on a rig as the primary video camera in the future. If he's doing that, Canon has really screwed up its forthcoming video product.

The lack of audio out for monitoring on the 1DX is just bizarre. Talk about leaving out a simple improvement that would make life easier. They add time syncing over ethernet to satisfy a very small number of prestigious users, but no headphone jack. dumb.

It seems the 1DX is is scanning the whole sensor every frame. I guess that's why there's no 1080 60p. I can understand lack of 60p as a compromise to high quality 30p. But all I see with audio is frivolously crippling one product to protect another.

In ten years when they review how Chinese and American companies became so competitive in imaging they can think about how they spent their time not satisfying clear, specific customer needs and wants.