Using the nanoFlash for software tutorials
 

I am wondering if it is possible to produce software tutorials with the nanoFlash. Specifically, the computer has a DVI video output. So, would using a DVI to HDMI adapter and setting the screen refresh rate to 24 Hz (or 30 Hz) and its resolution to 1920x1080 make it possible to record the video output with a nanoFlash?

I know there are other ways of grabbing screen output directly on the computer, but I would like to know if this would work. And if so, has anyone done it?

Dear Adam,

Yes, this may work, but it is not guaranteed.

One needs to feed the nanoFlash a clean HDMI signal, with one of the standard frame rates and one of the standard resolutions, 1920 x 1080 or 1280 x 720.

We know that the Nvidia Quadro FX 4600 can not be used with the nanoFlash. The frame rate/frequency of the output is not within spec.

We know that other graphics cards do work.
(But, I do not have a list of what works and does not work).

Thanks, Dan. How about GeForce 6200 TurboCache? Would that one work?

Dear Adam,

We have not tested that graphics card with the nanoFlash.

One of the problems is that there are hundreds, if not thousands of graphics cards.

Also, we can not tell by reading the spec's.

In certain cases, we can tell if a card will not work by reading the spec's, but it has to be tested to determine if it actually works or not.

Also, generally the spec's do not include the information we need to determine if the card will work or not.

So, to be as helpful as possible:

We need to be able to record in standard video formats, in standard video frame rates.

In other words, it has to look like video for us to record it. For example, a resolution of 1600 x 1200 is not acceptable.

I have read the spec's on this card. If you can select 1920 x 1080 at 23.976, 23.98, 24, 29.97, or 30 frames a second, then we may be able to record from your card.

The video card needs to detect a monitor; then will output according with that.
You can pass the signal through an HD TV and record with the NANO the HDMI OUT of the TV.
That one should be standard.
May work.
Rafael

Thanks, both of you. I am hoping the card will detect the nanoFlash and assume it is a monitor. Though I could always pass the signal from the nF to my smallHD monitor, which can accept HDMI signal. Indeed, I would have to, otherwise I would not see what I was doing.

I also have a Sony Vaio laptop which has an HDMI port and I have successfully connected the smallHD to it. But I would rather use my desktop. Nevertheless, if I have to, I can use the laptop.

Thanks again,
Adam

PS, I just checked. The card does support 1920x1080 but the lowest refresh rate it goes to is 60 Hz, which I assume is comparable to 60 frames per second, not 30 frames per second.

I will have to see if there is some kind of DVI to HDMI converter that can turn it to 30 fps.

I've done extensive testing of capturing computer output. This is something that is highly dependent on the video card. Also, be aware that many video cards will be limited to the refresh rate (frame rate).

I'll say it does work pretty well from what I've tried but I'm mostly using a laptop with an analog video output, converting that to a digital signal that can be recorded by the XDR.

I know there is one guy on the forums here, who captures XBOX 360 output via HDMI. I'm sure he's went through a lot of the same trial and error discovery that I have.

It's working pretty well for me though, my biggest issue is that the XDR/nano can't record true 60i in Quicktime format. This however, is addressed in the next version of the firmware update. Can't wait to try it out.

Dear Rafael,

In order for the nanoFlash to work, we have to negotiate with the sending device, via the HDMI link.

We do this.

There is no necessity to have a monitor in between us and the sending device.


XBOX 360 can not normally be recorded via the nanoFlash, as the "Broadcast Flag" is set, indicating that the signal is copy protected, thus the nanoFlash can not record it.

The company that is recording the XBOX 360 is a game developer. As such, they have a special developmental system, where the "Broadcast Flag" is not set.

Does this negotiation work when your computer has a DVI output and you put a $10 DVI->HDMI adapter in-between?

Dear Adam,

Yes, it should.

This is if your DVI graphic card supports HDCP.

Adam, I have done recordings with DVI->HDMI cable. Also, the DVI->HDMI cable is a simple wiring adapter, not a converter since the signaling is the same.

Again, though, your video card needs to put out a signal on the DVI port that the nano will be able to sync to.

Since PowerDVD refuses to play Blu-ray on that computer, I do not think my card supports HDCP, but compared to the cost of the nF, a new card would be peanuts. So, I have just called B&H and ordered the nF. I will have to call them back tomorrow to arrange for the payments, but it is a done deal now.

They do not have it in stock but say they will have it within a week or two.

Of course, my main use will be with my Sony EX-3 anyway, but I am glad to see it can also be used to record the output of the video of the computer.

Dear Adam,

Welcome Aboard!

Please feel free to contact me at anytime for support or assistance.

The point to force the DVI to output an standard signal, and any certified video card should do it when detecting an HD, PAL or NTSC monitor.
Then the NANO should be able to record that signal.
Rafael

Thanks, Dan. I'm sure I'll have more questions once I have received it.

I have just received an email from B&H that my nF has shipped and should arrive on Friday. I will then test if my video card works with it and in the likely case it does not, will ask you for a suggestion on which card to get to replace it with.

Well, for some reason I cannot plug the HDMI cable into my nanoFlash. I tried two different HDMI cables. It appears nF's HDMI is not same as a computer HDMI. Any advice here?

Dear Adam,

Are you using a Type C HDMI cable connector for the nanoFlash end?

The original HDMI connector was a Type A (large size).

The smaller, mini size, connector is a Type C.

There are Type A to Type C cable available. One source is nanoFlash.net, one of our premiere dealers.

Some cameras use the Type C HDMI connectors also, thus one would need a Type C to Type C cable. These are harder to find. There are Type A to Type C adapters available.

If your cable already has a Type C (mini) connector on the nanoFlash end, then the size should match our nanoFlash connector and it should just work.

Does the cable end appear to be the correct size?

I have two cables. One came with my smallHD monitor, the other is a DVI to HDMI adapter cable. Both have standard HDMI connectors (male). I did not know there were different types of HDMI. Oh, well, I'll need to get more cables.

Now, as to the original question of this thread, I am looking into a new video card. Can you tell me if this GeForce 9800 GT would work for my needs (i.e., to connect my nF to it and save the computer output to video)? Or can you suggest the right card?

Dear Adam,

We have not tested the NVIDIA® GeForce® 9800 GT.

We do know that the NVIDIA® GeForce® 9600 GT does not work with the nanoFlash.

If you do get the NVIDIA® GeForce® 9800 GT I would make certain that you can return it, without a large financial loss, if it does not work.

Dear Dan,

Is it safe assuming that if a graphics driver software (like the Catalyst with my ATI card) can configure the HDMI output as 1920x1080 @25Hz (it's also possible to set to 50 or 100 Hz), there is a chance the nanoFlash will be recognized?

Of course, for NTSC area this would be 30, 60 or 120 Hz.

Dear Piotr,

We do not do a lot of testing with graphics cards.

I recommend that you just perform a test, if you have the cards.

No, they only offer returns for replacement if the card is non-functional. I wish you had a list of cards you have tested.

Anyway, if the 9600 GT does not work with the nF, chances are the 9800 GT does not either. Do you know of any GeForce that does work? Especially in the 9xxx series?

OK, how about this SAPPHIRE 100253HDMI Radeon HD 4650 card? It has an HDMI connector on the card and several reviewers have said they use it to play videos on their TV. Several also mentioned it plays Blu-ray. Would that be an indication it would work with the nF? I don't mean to record Blu-ray, which obviously is not possible, but if it plays Blu-rays, it seems reasonable it should support the proper frames per second.

It is not terribly expensive either.

Adam,

I understand Dan is in no potion to know about each graphics card model; when I find some time I'll test it for you on my ATI 3870 card (all ATIs should work the same as the Catalyst software that is used to configure output parameters is the same for all current models).

Dear Adam,

As always, we would like to help you as much as humanly possible.

But, the only reason we know that the GeForce 9600 card did not work is that a customer reported it, then we helped him troubleshoot it.

This community of friends is in much better position to help.

If anyone has an HDMI equipped Graphics card, and a nanoFlash, then they can run a test, if they so desire.

We hope you obtain some results and advice from the members of this forum.

Dziękuję, Piotr, and thank you, Dan.

Cala przyjemnosc po mojej stronie, Adam :)

PS. I wonder how our fiends with no CE code page on their computer like all those Polish characters...

I would hope that all the recent versions of Windows have the CE fonts readily available. Otherwise they will just see a a little square in their place. Though under Unix lynx just substitutes an e for the ę.

I just realized that my laptop has an ATI card. I will go ahead and order an HDMI to mini HDMI adapter, and when it comes, I should be able to test it myself.

Also, all NVIDIA cards use the same driver software, so chances are if the ones Dan mentioned do not work, none does.

If enough people post their test results, I would be more than happy to produce a web page on Pantarheon which will show all the test results.

Dear Adam,

Here are some technical details.

When most cameras output a video signal, the signal is typically very accurate in frequency. Typcially, it is within 5 parts per million or 5ppm.

We lock on to this signal.

While the signal is typically within 5ppm, we search for the signal within 100ppm.

With the NVidia GeForce 9600 card, we found the output to be way off; it was not within 100 ppm. This is either a hardware or firmware problem, on their side, as we see it.

So, our first experience with the 9600 card was such that it did not work. Recently another customer was using the same type of card, and it did not work either. They tried another computer, with a different graphics card, and it immediately worked.

We await your results using the ATI card.

I ordered the HDMI - mini HDMI cable from B&H this morning. It is expected to arrive on Friday. Assuming it does, I will be testing it either on Friday or Saturday. And I will post my results as soon as I finish.

Could try BMD DVI extender??
 

Hi all,

Just to mention that another approach to this issue is to buy the Blackmagic Design DVI extender unit, which acts as a monitor and requests the correct resolution from the graphics card. It then outputs HDSDI which can be recorded by the nF.

Blackmagic Design: DVI Extender

OK, it's another $395, but it may let you use the nF with a wider range of graphics cards.

Dave

Wy bother to try to connect the nanoFlash to your computer? There are a lot of free 'screenrecorders' available (softwaretool) that does a great job in capturing what's going on on your screen (p.e. camstudio).

Dear Dave,

Did this work for you?

If so, what graphics card were you using?

It would also be nice to know the resolution and frame rate settings.

Hi, Dave,

Very interesting. I have almost ordered it but then I noticed it uses 3GB/s SDI. I do not believe that the nF could work with that. If it could, this would be the perfect answer to my needs.

Maybe Dan can confirm (or deny) it would work.

Because the software tools you are mentioning (and which I mentioned in the original post of this thread) are not as great as you may think.

Take a look at this video. In it, I was playing a midi composition of mine. The computer was displaying each note as it was playing it. I was capturing it with that software. Now, at the beginning of the capture the video and the sound are perfectly synchronized, but toward the end the video is lagging behind the sound.

Of course, on my computer the video and the audio were in perfect sync from start to finish. But in the capture they were not. And in some other compositions I have done the synchronization was even worse.

Now, that may be fine for a YouTube video (though it bothers me), but it is unacceptable for professional work.

And that is just one of the reasons.

Dear Adam,

3G HD-SDI devices almost always work with the much more common 1.485 Gigabit per second flavor of HD-SDI.

I have not tested the device, so I do not know if it will work or not.

Also, the nanoFlash was special circuitry to handshake with the device sending the HDMI signal.

If this has been tested and actually solves the problem, then great. I do not see why it would be necessary.

However, it could be that the Blackmagic unit is more tolerant of an out-of-spec signal from your computer.

Thanks, Dan.

Then it should work. According to their documentation, the DVI Extender should work with nVidia cards. Note that they work with DVI, not HDMI.

Also, I have updated the driver for my GeForce 6200 TurboCache. It now lists 1080p and 1080i, both 60 Hz as possible modes. I will wait till my mini HDMI adapters arrive to test both my desktop and laptop via HDMI.

Nevertheless, the DVI Extender seems like a very useful device to have even if it turns out I can use my nF directly with my computer.

I see the same company also offers an HDMI to SDI "mini" converter. I wonder which would be more more useful in the long run, the DVI Extender or the HDMI converter.

I have tested it and am uploading the results to YouTube. Alas, I seem to have a very slow connection, as it is saying it will be uploaded in three and a half hours. And since it is midnight, I am just going to leave my laptop on and am going to bed.

But, presumably, the test results should be available within a few hours of this post on my YouTube channel. The name of the video is nanoFlash Test 1.