Bit dissapointed with the A1
 

Hi all, I finally got my XH-A1 today after months of saving and choosing between it and the Sony V1. I was really torn between these two cameras, ergonomically the V1 was way more attractive to me but the XH-A1 footage just looked so nice that I couldn't be swung by the build of the camera.

Anyway, the A1 came today and I although I was a little disappointed by the build quality of it I was even more down about the video quality I'm getting. I've lowered gain to -3 and switched of auto gain but I'm still not happy with the results I'm getting. I've tried some of the custom presets available on this site but still can't seem to get anything like the quality of samples others have uploaded.

I find that zooming in to subjects increases quality a lot, but at fully wide I'm not getting a very sharp image, everything seems a little wishy washy and fairly noisy.

Does anyone have any idea what I might be missing?

Thanks

paul.

Removed this post

Great Camera
 

Here are a few questions to consider as you work towards resolving the issue as to whether or not you have a defective unit. Please give more details.

What are your shooting conditions?
Low light? High contrast?

Did you use manual focus?
Did you use focus assist?

Are you shooting in HDV or DV mode?

What is your monitor for viewing?
Is it the A1's LCD, which shouldn't be trusted?
What is the screeen resolution of the monitor? 500, 800, 720, 1080?
How is your monitor set up? Is it set for 1080i or less?
What is the connection method? Composite RCA or component?

Maybe some one else will have more possible solutions. It's sunny and warm today in Fairbanks, Alaska, so I'm going outside with the kids! (60 degrees Fahrenheit, which is warm enough for the mosquitos to come out of hibernation;-) And yes, my kids are wearing shorts and T-shirts and planning a water fight.

If you're not getting a really nice picture, it's not the camera. The above advice is good--you have to make sure to turn off all the automatic stuff that it defaults to: auto iris, auto gain, auto white balance, auto shutter.

Low light? High contrast?

I'm shooting property videos, both internally and externally. Today was a nice sunny day, there was plenty of natural light coming in through windows etc.

Sometimes, it depends on the situation, when doing focus pulls or tricky angles I switch to manual.

No.

HDV. I tried with both 25p & 50i and found that 50i was less noisy, which is a shame because I really like the 25p look. 25p might not be suitable for my purposes though, I really need smooth pans.

I'm using a Dell 2407 LCD, both for editing in PP2 and via component input.

1920x1200, component.

Thanks for any help you can offer. I'm fairly new to this, i have worked on the editing side for a while but recently given the option to start doing property shoots. Given my needs, if you think another camera would be better suited please tell me, I went for the A1 for it's wider zoom and low light capabilities, maybe a V1 or Z1 would have been a better choice?

Many thanks

Paul.

Dell Monitor component video in
 

I have the Dell 2407 and I find when I have the camera connected via component video inputs the colours are too saturated as compared to when I have captured the footage and view it. I'm not sure how to calibrate this monitor for a more realistic image. Would love a few hints.

Dave

The A1 picture quality via component output is much better in my Samsung 3296 32" LCD TV than my Dell 2407. Dell is too saturated and a bit grainy.

John

"I'm using a Dell 2407 LCD, both for editing in PP2 and via component input."

I think your problem is your Dell 2407, it is pretty bad, in contrast the previous model the 2405 is exellent, for sure it is not the A1, I think it has the best picture quality compared to any camera under 5G.

C'mon guys - Paul is talking about picture shortcomings that have nothing to do with the monitor in question! It may not be the best model on the planet, but if it's picture is too saturated (and I can imagine that - my Fujitsu Siemens also needs some adjustment in this respect, when fed from the component output of my ATI graphics) - then how can it contribute to the A1 video being "wishy washy"?

Thanks for all the tips guys, I think I'm slowly getting there. Firstly, you are all correct about the monitor, when i watch footage via the component input on it it does look over saturated and contrasty. As Poitr pointed out though, this isn't really my biggest problem, I'm getting weak footage in PP2 too so I know something else is going on.

I think I'm part way to solving it, I experiemnted more today with using some ND filter and trying not to restrict the Iris as much as it was doing in auto, this seemed to let the colour have a lot more freedom than yesterday and I'm getting much richer results. I've been watching my footage on my Sony Wega 32" CRT TV and although it's not HD it does look a lot nicer than on the PC. Would I be right in assuming that the problem was becoming less of an issue as I zoomed in due to the camera having less exposure to deal with and hence more room for getting a better in quality?

So, my biggest issue is that my footage is being delivered both via streaming flash video and via DVD distribution, I plan to be using FCP on a mac soon but until my new business pics up and helps pay for it I'm going to be continuing with my current PC setup. Any tips on workflow to produce nice quality footage that I can both deliver via SD DVD and run through my flash video encoding process would be greatly appreciated.

I'm using the Canon 25p plugin that adobe released for PP2 to setup my project and then capturing using the standard canon setting. After editing I've tried exporting as quicktime and avi with mixed results. Is there a better way?

Thanks

Paul.

One thing I've discovered about these 1/3" cameras is that you never want to stop down much more than f4.. f 5.6 in a pinch.. but pile on as much ND as you can on bright exteriors - or use a good quality polarizer, which knocks about 2 stops off -

Otherwize these cameras look like mush.

Interesting point Steve Rosen, any particular brand of a polarizer you recommend? I know quality is of up most importance since we are dealing with an HD image. Century Optics?

Very, very good point indeed!

I use Tiffen - I have a plain and a warm (adds an 812 - takes the coldness out of midday skies)...

Century's Schnieders are good too, some think they're better because of the glass, but I haven't seen a difference...

Don't know about Hoya, I didn't used to like their stuff but they may be better now...

Just be sure you get filters at a reliable store, not a good place to try and save a few bucks...

They do not look like mush, sound like you have bigger chips camera and just looking down on these small chips camera, what you recommend is only good for day time, what would you do shooting something at night or indoor? avoid going below f4 will leave a pitch black scenes if you don't have thousand of watts of lightning, the A1 has very good picture quality even at f1.6 and they do not loook like mush, of course not as sharp at the optimum midrange apperture but for sure not mush, also there is no need to buy any ND filters, it already has 2 level built in, and a -3 db gain and shutter speed control, buying ND filters for this camera is a waste of money.

Oh yes they do - and I don't mean just the A1. With the V1 I'm using now, with aperture any smaller than 5.6, I can see a very evident softness due to diffraction. During a sunny day in April (Poland), ND2 is barely enough to always keep iris tighter that F5.6; before full summer sunshine comes I'm definitely buying some good UV/polarizing filter, and - if this is not enough - some neutral one as well. In the Sony, ther is an option in the menu to limit the aperture in auto mode; one option is 5.6 and the other 11 - I bet at F11 I'd never get a picture as sharp as it could be with wider aperture!

This model is very noisy, or slow refresh rate, alot of movement will leave a trail and looks blur, this is probably why he said it is wishy washy or he could also means it is washout from over exposed picture, either case it is not the camera fault, it is the fault of either the monitor or the user not familiar with the camera.

Khoi: Stopping down means closing the aperature, not opening it...

Canon lenses are all pretty good wide open (in low light).. unfortunately the A1 doesn't allow you to hold the stop through the zoom range, so you're limited to wide angle shots.. it stops to 2.6 and 3.4 as you zoom in -

But, again, outdoors or in bright situations, don't stop down below f4 if you can help it - and there are plenty of tools available to make that possible.

You will need a blue gel filter like a Kodak gelatin filter #47b.
1. turn on the color bars on your camera and feed it to your monitor.
2. turn the color all the way down until it is black and white
2. adjust the brightness until you can barely see the difference between the middle and the last bar on the right (pluge bar, they are 3 small black bars in the bottom right corner next to black square)
3.turn the contrast all the way up and then turn in down until you see it stop blooming (using the white square near the bottom left)or until you see a smooth gradient of gray of all the vertical bars
4.put the blue gel fiter over your eyes and bring the color up until the first bar (white) and the blue bar (right below the white bar) has the same shade.
5.adjust the tint until you see the cyan bar (third from left) and the magenta bar (right below the cyan bar) has the same shade.
Now that your monitor is calibrated. (-:. If whatever you feed to it does not look right, you know it is the operator or camera fault and not the monitor.
BTW if you are using the Dell, turn off the video mode.

The sun in Texas is I think as bright as the sun in Poland (-: I have no problem keep it at f5.6 with the built in ND filter and -3db gain at shutter speed around 250th of a second. I never disagreed with you that f4 to 5.6 is the sharpest, I just disagreed with you that it looks like mush at below f4.

Oh yeah, you are right, I just got up from a late night shoot, and just took a quick glancd at your post and assumed that is what you said because that is what I have heard so many time in the past, you meant closing and not opening, yeah I agreed, closing it past f5.6 making it pretty soft. My bad.

Great info here! Has anyone posted some video on the sample clip section?

Keep in mind that video is intended for viewing things in motion, not static images with lots of fine detail. As you zoom out, fewer and fewer pixels are available in the image to resolve the same detail. With motion, the brain-eye system compensates for this loss of detail.

Any delivery system that requires high compression can only make things look worse.

Agreed on both points regarding the 2407 & the A1. I was extremely disapointed with the 2407 video quality re: colour saturation.

I have posted a clip some time ago that illustrates this phenomenon; it's shot with the V1 but I tested A1 as well, and it isn't different:

http://rapidshare.com/files/18138889...rpness3_ND.m2v

Please note that it was recoreded with sharpness at 3, while the default is 7 for the V1. It looks mush at the beginning, but watch on...

With the shutter speed at 1/250th, I would never have diffraction problems with the Polish sun, either:). However, I was talking about trying to keep aperture above F5.6 *AND* the shutter speed manually fixed at 1/50th (for PAL; would be 1/48 for NTSC).

Very interesting reading indeed thanks for all the informative posts. I had read that you need to understand this camera to get the best out of it, and I can now confirm that this is totally correct. I'm really please with the footage from my xh-a1 now, and the more I get to know it the better it's getting.

There's actually something quite satisfying about knowing that you need to work the camera to get the best out of it.

regards

Paul.

Ok so now we know that your sun is as bright as my sun. (-:

I think you got his statement confused. Either you did or I did, but I thought he was talking about having a lower f-stop (f16,f22, etc). I haven't gotten this camera yet, so I don't really have that much room to talk, but ND filters are usually a good investment for any camera. When you try to get good lighting using the camera's electronics, the quality is usually less than if you buy a filter. Now I did try out the XH-A1 at a camera store in Tampa a few weeks ago, and by playing with the settings and everything, I saw nothing wrong with this camera. Then I checked out Sony's excuse for a $4000 HDV camera, and I got lost in the settings. Even the people at the Sony store didn't know how to work it. So for customization and quality, I still think the XH-A1 is fine.

I don't know if this helps Paul, and I know it sounds kind of obvious, but I've found that the image quality can vary greatly just with different combinations of zoom, focus, shutter, aperture, gain, and custom preset. The particular shot itself in terms of color and lighting is also important -- just walking outside and turning the thing on can result in some pretty dull shots IMHO.

I had that complaint for a little while after I first bought mine -- it seemed I wasn't able to get the clarity and vividness of some of the samples I'd seen -- but as I've gotten to know the camera better, the quality's been improving.

You could post some screenshots or a sample video of something you've taken as well, in which case others more qualified than myself might be able to tell if the camera seems to be in good working order.

Keep at it!

Jared

Thanks for all the tips, I'm really getting to grips with the camera now, I'm shooting in TV most of the time now with in 25F, shutter at 50 and with the exposure locked so that I can keep control of it. I guess I could do the same thing in Manual but I just seem to have settled into this way of shooting.

here's a quick comparison showing the kind of difference I'm seeing since I started this thread, the original grab is at the bottom. This was just screen grabbed from Premier so it's not the best quality in terms of sharpness etc but I think you'll agree that there is a major change in colour depth. It's hard to believe that there's only a week between the two shots, the tree's have grown at the same speed as my knowledge of the camera! :)

Paul.

http://www.olikai.com/images/comp.jpg

edit// here's another interior shot comparison.
http://www.olikai.com/images/comp2.jpg

Nice comparison

is that from one of the presets or your own creation? Huge difference from before

I'm trying to shoot mostly in manual now, but some painful learning curves at my end.

I am still trying to figure out the difference between TV with exposure lock engaged and manual setting, what the tv advantage would be

Trish

I've been experimenting with a lot of the custom presets from the thread here, I really like the VIVIDRGB preset but find it to push the reds way to far into a magenta scale for my needs. Shooting property results in shooting a lot of red brick which is not a good subject for that preset.

The newer examples above are shot using the -3DB preset from http://www.fxsupport.de/20.html which does seem to do a very nice job of showing accurate colour. I think it might be a little too contrasty / saturated but I'm going to play around with that. I can't remember which one the older ones were shot with, but my main fault was that I was letting the iris close too much instead of using ND to control light levels.

Paul.

Did you use the original vividgrb - it had a magenta problem - near the end of that thread, Steve posted revised settings for that preset that adjusted it

I haven't tried shooting with the gain at a minus level, but it's on the list. : ) I will check out that link as well. Thanks

Trish