Hi Lonnie. I very much doubt that the Sony monitor will be able to sync to the HD signal at all. You will probably just get tearing lines and no real picture. Shouldn't actually damage anything but I wouldn't recommend it. Still, if you do get an A1 and try it out, please post the results, I'm interested too.

BTW, I'm using a PC monitor (1680x1050) for viewing my HD while editing. I set it up as a secondary display under Windows XP, and then used a recent Nvidia graphics card driver that has an excellent option to play any video as full screen on the secondary display. This means that my NLE video signal is pumped out full screen to the secondary monitor without having to set anything up in the NLE.

I spent some time adjusting the secondary monitor settings (gamma, contrast, brightness and saturation) while playing an SD video that was also showing on my Sony CRT monitor, to try and match the 2 diisplays. I still don't think that LCDs are as good as CRT for video, but at least it is quite close now and much better than using the small monitor window on the main PC display.

Richard

Richard - many thanks for your time...

I'm purchasing a Samsung HDTV before football season starts, but soon as my budget replenishes, and the XHA1 is in my hands - I'll let you know how things work... (End of August, I'm guessing)

Regards,
Lonnie

Cheaper / Alternative to AJA IO HD (Capture A1 Uncompressed)
 

Hey Guys,

Here's a little diagram I created that illustrates what I view as an alternative to the AJA IO HD (When it comes to the A1).

Now, I'm not an engineer but I have had several years experience with cameras, signal flow etc. AND I've been an electronics nerd all my life.

Does anybody see any problems with the described workflow?

(The only downfall is that you have to bring your computer on location!)

(I view this as being helpful for GREEN SCREEN shots).

Let me know what you guys think!

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/7...workfloft4.jpg

Hey John - Looks good. But I believe many use variations of this set up with either AJA or BM products already - but it's more commonly referred to as a "studio" set up (as in not very transportable). But, the main big deal about the IOHD is that it allows you to record to your laptop, which is more portable than your tower. However, I do know a couple of very imaginative types have made portable ATA style cases for their computer and tote them along to location shoots. I'm just not rich enough to risk damage to my macpro like this yet.

A question I have for the engineers out there: is there any signal degradation introduced by using the couplers or rca-bnc connectors?

Lonnie

By the way - great illustrations!

Hey
 

Thanks!

Yes, that's actually a great idea I hadn't thought of before. Too bad FCP isn't Windows compatible, I'd build a custom rig right now!

I, too, would like to know if the RCA coupler degrades the signal.

Engineers? :D

*OH and FCP experts, am I right when I said, in the illustration, that the 8bit 4:2:2 uncompressed footage would be captured using the new ProRes422 codec? I'm new to that one, just checking.

Thanks!*

John,
In your scenario, you could capture to any codec you choose (yes ProRes, too). If your project was short enough (or you have fast & many many GBs of storage) - you could even capture uncompressed.

The main reason to capture to ProRes422 is it greatly reduces storage while keeping high quality, and it's an easier codec to edit with than HDV (like render times).

Regards,
Lonnie

NVM, didn't read the previous post carefully lol.

- Kyle

I must be missing something here.............
 

But if you're taking your pc/ laptop to the camera, why are you going digital - analogue - digital when you could simply plug in the firewire and get digital - digital - digital WITH embedded sound to boot?

Or, as I said, am I missing something fundamental?

CS

I believe going the firewire route would compress the footage to the HDV (m2t) format... I might be mistaken but I believe this is correct... The goal is to bypass the compression... It's been a while since I have done that...

Sorry guys............
 

but it ain't me missing something funamental.

The ONLY compression being performed is to enable the data stream from the sensors to be written to the tape with the bandwidth limitation that applies.

Neither the analogue Component NOR the Digital Firewire O/P's data streams are compressed, unless their source is the already compressed data on the tape (ie: in playback mode).

Ergo, both sources are uncompressed, as there is no reason for them to be so. The only compression being applied is to get the data onto the tape.

So, why go from the analogue Component O/P's when you can go Digital Firewire with embedded audio?

CS

I haven't worked with ProRes myself yet, but if I remember correctly from the Apple presentation, you can't capture in prores realtime, so if that is correct, FCP has to convert it to prores after capture.
The Aja io hd converts to prores with dedicated hardware.

Chris, whatever comes out of the Firewire plug, IS compressed. In an HDV camcorder, what comes out of the firewire plug, whether it's in playback or record mode, is an HDV stream, hence a compressed data stream.

Chris,

Sergio already corrected you, but I wanted to add that I *wish* that's how it worked. There is no technical reason that manufacturers have to compress live footage to HDV when sending it out via firewire, but they all do it, and none provide any other option. HDV only uses 4.5 MB/s, while firewire (400) has the capacity to carry much, much more data: 48 MB/s. That's not enough for uncompressed 4:2:2 1080, but there are a lot of options. In any case, it would compete directly with ultra-high-margin HD-SDI, and they would need to find a codec that's light on the camera's tiny CPU, so it will probably never happen.

Why no use the BlackMagic Intensity Pro hardware for approx $350?

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

GAry

And then you won't have to use the RCA:BNC adapter cable and RCA Coupler. YES, it will degrade signal slightly, but more importantly, all of those connections are not shielded and can let interference come into play. One connection is better than 3 in your design!

Hmm
 

The BlackMagic Intensity Pro sounds great! I am definitely looking for a cheaper solution.

However, I'm looking for a cheaper solution to capture the highest possible quality from my A1.

What connection could I use from the A1 to connect to the Intensity Pro?

Is there such a thing as a Terminal-D Component to HDMI cable?

Or, are there adapters that would allow me to connect the 3 component cables to the HDMI input?

Read up and look at the product page... it comes with a breakout cable that allows hookup of the component cables.
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

Has anyone worked this one out yet?
 

I am aware of the HDV 4:2:0 colorspace limitations from XH-A1 captured via fire-wire. I am interested in learning any options for capturing 4:2:2 footage from XH-A1. Do any of the engineer people who've looked at the A1 think the design of the makes it possible to have an add-on jack pack be a component offered by Canon in the future, to upgrade to the functions currently available in the XH-G1? I do know that the camera is ultimately producing a full uncompressed signal, but I'm unsure if it is possible to output it.

I do have an HV-20, and will be setting up a mac pro and black magic intensity pro for capturing 4:2:2 from it in studio via HDMI, primarily for green-screen work. I would ultimately expect to see portable solutions for capturing 4:2:2 HD footage from these cameras directly to disk, bypassing DV compression, hopefully soon.

I'd still like to hear what options people have developed for themselves, and what new equipment they expect will help in portable uncompressed HD capture options or working with some of the newer codecs and capturing techniques.

thanks.

The Intensity has Analog output only. If you want a cheaper alternative to the Kona 3, then the Decklink HD at around $900 is a cheaper alternative.
It works really well for analog capture from the A1 as well as HDSDI capture from the H1.

You are mistaken. The Intensity has no analog connections at all, it's HDMI only. The Intensity Pro has Analog Component output *and* input. The big difference between the $350 Itensity Pro and it's thrice-expensive brother, Decklink HD, is 8-bit 4:2:2 vs. 12-bit 4:4:4.

As to Chris Carroll's question about portability, there are two options:

1. A portable desktop:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=97526

2. Laptop with the Magma ExpressBox ($730):

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=99758

Actually..we are both wrong. :)

The Decklink HD is 10bit 4:2:2

Mondays... :)

-will

Is component out uncompressed?
 

Excuse me for getting involved in the discussion. The whole discussion is based on the assumtion that the video quality through the component out is of higher quality that the digital HDV stream. How do you know that Canon designed the A1 to output uncompressed video through the component out?
Have someone verified this by checking artifacts by sampling the component out and comparing with the HDV stream?
In an electronics design point of view it would be just as likely (or more likely)that the component out, CVBS out, audio out, and display out were connected after the HDV decompressor.

The Firewire data stream is an HDV (MPEG-2, 25 MBit) or DV (MJPEG, 25 MBit) stream regardless if you are storing to tape or not. The MPEG2 transport stream does not have enough bandwidth to be uncompressed. In fact Firewire does not have the bandwith for uncompressed HD video. Thats why Canon sells the G1.

When using 24F/25F the output from the camera is delayed half a second compared to reality (both audio, video out and display). Why would it be delayed if the camera video output were uncompressed? If the component video output were to be delayed half a second and still be in sync with the audio the camera would need to buffer half a second of uncompressed video. This is not likely since it would just add unneccessary hardware and increase the cost of the product.

Thanks

I've tested all of the modes (24F, 30F, and 60i) empirically, and they are indeed live. Therefore, they can't be compressed because HDV uses a GOP of at least 15 frames. The fact has been confirmed by many forum members.

The audio is live, as it should be, so that you can monitor and react to what's happening in real time. The viewfinder is very close to live in 30F and 60i modes, but it slows down a bit in 24F mode.

I don't know enough about electronics design to qualify what's easier, but I think the fact that *all* cameras with component output are uncompressed lends credence to the position that it's cheaper or nearly equivalent to make them that way.

[Now that I think about it, compression delay on component output would invalidate its ostensibly principle purpose: monitoring, so that's probably the most important reason.]

The component output and audio out are *not* delayed in 24F or any other mode. The viewfinder is delayed in 24F. The firewire stream is delayed in all modes.

The component output totally ignores the 24F/30F/60i mode setting: it always pulls 60i off the sensor: there's not even any pull down.

That is exactly what we have seen as well when doing live captures
from analog and HD-SDI from a H1. 60i all the time. No compression.

Hi Everybody,

First post to this great forum - this is a topic of particular interest:

Trying to clarify the information here - Is it feasible to use the component out and feed it into, for instance the AJA io by means of adapters? Like others, my goal is to get uncompressed out without the expense of G1 or H1, ideally with portability too (MacBook Pro).

In the UK at least the io + A1 would be equivalent to the price of H1, but with more flexibility.

Thanks,

Nick.

You don't need adapters with the IO-HD. It has component input.

Many thanks Will

Okay, so I'm confused.

With the BlackMagic Intensity, are you able to capture HDV video, then come home and upload it to your computer uncompressed, or does the A1 need to be connected to the computer while you're filming?

It must be connected to the computer.

4.2.2 via component out from A1 - worth it?
 

I have read some discussion on this and seen some comparison stills. But, I was wondering if anyone who has captured 4.2.2 out of their A1 via black magic or Kona cards has an opinion. The few stills that I saw did look slightly more colorful and brighter, but my initial opinion was it was very subtle and maybe not worth the hassle. I am into quality and I know that we are talking about 25% more color with 4.2.2, so I am very tempted but being tethered to a computer and needing an assitant to run the captures seems like a pain.
So I ask, does the bump in color make it all worth it or is it in fact not worth the production pain.

4:2:2 Opinion
 

4:2:2 is generally better for chroma keying, as it keeps edges from getting sawtoothed. Better color resolution helps the divisions between colors, basically, reducing artifacts. Personally, I have shot in 24f on my XHA1 and, when lit correctly, it isn't too difficult to key the footage so that it looks really nice. I use Shake and After Effects for keying. I'd think it would matter mostly with really complex scenes, where you are dealing with more than a basic green wall. My experience has been that HDV keys far more nicely than DV ever did. Component would be even better, but I'm not sure it's worth the trade. Depends on what you are going to do.
Additionally, the component out is pre-HDV compression, so there will be some other differences regarding your imagery - mostly related to compression. There are varying opinions on how people feel about HDV compression when it comes to motion, but the common denominator dictates that it does, in fact exist and being able to avoid those artifacts is a real boon for some. Personally, it has never been an issue for me - especially in 24f mode. I shot a ceiling fan once (close-up, high speed) that broke up in 60i, but had no problems in 24f. It's one of those things where if you are going to film so much motion or so many scene complexitites that the compression matters, it would probably be impossible to tether yourself - or you shouldn't be shooting that scene because the basic production value/composition is all wrong.
Again, this is from my personal experience shooting interviews and some light key work, as well as some indy films and events.

Cant you record to Tape simultaneously to get the sound?
perhaps I am thinking in terms of the H1 > iohd

Component IN?
 

I know you can take in anything with the RCA and than take it in through the firewire, but can i do the same thing with a component?

No. Just like all other HD camcorders, the analog component video connection is an output only.

So when using component out from an XH-A1 is it worth it to go with 10-bit 4:2:2 over 8-bit 4:2:2? I mean if I'm going to go through all the trouble of external capture, why skimp on the last two bits?

I realize this is a very subjective question, but would love to hear people's opinions.

Thanks!

Pardon me for jumping in on a discussion between much more knowledgeable guys, but isn't this all why some folks buy an XH-G1 rather than an A1 - to be able to access and record/save uncompressed footage? I thought that ALL the outputs from an A1 were either compressed or D-A converted or both.

* Didn't notice or read the next 2 pages of posts on this thread - sorry.

Colin,

I agree with you--that's precisely why we got the G1 instead of the A1--we use the HD SDI to the AJA IoHD, then into a MacBook Pro laptop and save to an external eSATA RAID1 enclosure (via Express34 card). Allows "uncompressed" capture (we actually use ProRes422 HQ, the quality of which is apparently on par with uncompressed.)

A1 component capture (IOHD) vs HDV for Green Screen?
 

I have access to an A1 and an IOHD, and am curious if anyone has found a real working benefit to capture off the component out of the A1 versus pulling the key off the HDV footage. I understand the color space ramifications of each, but wonder if it really makes much difference real world, or vs. something like the G1 or H1 with HD-SDI out.

Or if anyone in the Austin area has an G1 or H1 they would like to loan out for a day...

Thanks

Austin

Capturing uncompressed off of component on xh a1
 

Does anyone know if the component output on xh a1 is not sure how to say but has not gone thru hdv compression and is uncompressed like the hdsdi on xh h1 or g1. I was thinking of putting a component to sdi converter (either blackmagic or aja) then feeding the sdi signal into macpro with kona lh. I know lh has analog inputs but have read that its better to go into it sdi, plus the advantage of longer cable runs. If it is not any better quality by going to sdi thru converter is it at least better quality compared to hdv. Has anyone done any tests to compare live capture off of hd sdi off of g1 vs component on xh a1. I now should just get g1 or xh h1 but for the price can get a1 and macpro or even iohd. Plus already have 2 a1s.