New camera for film
 

Hi,

I've been doing some very interesting reading in this forum and I'm glad I found it! I'm in that "wich camera to buy" dillema and I've read the gigantic thread related to this subject.

Anyway, I have a few questions. My interest in this new camera has NOTHING to do with video look or television standards. My only interest in buying a new (HD?) camera is to make movies with a film look, something that creates the ilusion of cinema and makes people believe the images and get lost in the movie.

For this and from what I've read, the 25p mode is the key to get at least, the film motion, that kind of bluriness on motion. Can I film in 25p mode using HD quality? I ask this cause I want to know if I would get the benefit of buying a HD camera since I'll just be using the 25p mode. I think I've read somewhere that I can still get 720p out of a 25p mode. And since I'm going with native "progressive mode" should I go with the fathers (Panasonic) or Canon should be ok? (I've read some great stuff of the XH A1).

My second question has to do with the lens. To get a good Depth of Field (like in movies) can I use the native lens of the XH A1 (or similar cameras) or do I have to buy a super expensive lens? Or an adapter?

Can I say the XH A1 is a good camera for me? It's right on my budget by the way.


Thanks for any help!

David

David,

The answer to your first question is yes, you can use 25f (Canon's version of 25P) in HD. I shoot 24F (the American variant) most of the time. It does give you that film blur.

My first test of the camera ever, I shot in 24f and rendered it out in 1280X720p. Check out my first shoot - pay attention the blur on the horses during the joust. I've only used the camera for HD...even though it is capable of SD.

Renaissance Pleasure Faire - XH-A1 Test Footage By Marcel Van Someren On ExposureRoom

As far as obtaining shallow depth of field like movie camera's do with the A1's lens. It's not really about the lens. It has to do with the size of the CCD sensors... 1/3" That makes it difficult to achieve shallow DOF. But it's not impossible. If you move the camera farther away and then zoom in on your subject, the background will be out of focus (bokeh).

Check out this example. About 1/3rd of the way through, I do a rack focus using just that method.

Vasquez Rocks By Marcel Van Someren On ExposureRoom

If you want shallow DOF more consistently, then you'll have to invest in a 35mm adapter. They can be pricey but certainly not as much as a large CCD or CMOS sensor camera.

One thing to keep in mind, lighting and camera movements have a lot more to do with the "film look" than the camera itself.

Hope this info helps you with your decision.

-Marcel

Thanks Marcel! So you would say the XH A1 is a good camera for what I want? I also think that most of the film look should be about 80% editing, using filters and color correction, etc. Do you prefer to use presets on the camera or in post-production? Any good link with film-look presets for the XH A1?


Thanks,

David

I like the A1. I also like the HVX and the EX1/EX3. They all have their good and not so good points. For me, the A1 made the most sense and I really liked the footage I saw on this and other forums. Keep in mind that getting good looking footage from any of these cameras takes practice. They are not point and shoot cameras. I shoot with everythng in Manual mode.

You really need to decide which work flow works best for you. Although you can get hard drive and solid-state recording add-ons that will work with the A1. MiniDV tape is the primary media. It's inexpensive and you can record an hour on each tape. The other two cameras use P2 or SxS cards. They are expensive and don't hold as much. You'll need a laptop to dump footage on as the cards fill up. Or, spend lot's of money on a large suppy of cards. Only you can decide what will work for you.

I prefer to use presets and then touch up in post. Others prefer the opposite. There is a thread in this forum where you can find about 30+ presets that you can download...some simulate specific film type, some camera types, still others a certain look. These days I make my own presets that give me the look I want.

I do agree that good editing does help get that cinematic look. But if you've got Video looking footage, no amount of editing is going to make it look like film. Lighting, framing shots, dollying and trucking the camera instead of zooming and panning, on the other hand, give a much more film like feeling to the video, in my opinion.

Since it was brough up in the last post, when you checked out my footage on those previous links, you may have noticed that there are some adapter clips on my page. I've been using a DIY mid-format adapter I recently built to get shallow DOF. I have also purchased an SGBlade 35mm adapter. If you're really looking to do film like productions, you'll probably end up getting or making one at some point.

Thanks for your help! I think I'm going with the A1. Do you know any good 35mm adapters that I could try out with the A1? I've read good stuff about the Brevis Flip but it's almost the same price as the camera itself, so it won't do for me...


Thanks

David

PS: I just checked the price on the SGBlade you mentioned, seems a lot more reasonable in price than the Brevis...

Well, the least expensive way to go is build one yourself. A lot of people have had success going that route.

There are basically 3 types of adapters: Static, Vibrating, Spinning (the Brevis is kind of a hybrid as the the ground glass supposedly vibrates/oscilates in a circular manner)

Static has no moving parts but tends to lose the most light and the grain is visable in certain shooting circumstances.

Vibrating probably has the least light loss of the 3. However, you start seeing grain at higher shutter speeds or past f5.6.

Spinning can have more light loss than vibrating. (in the case of the SGBlade, it depends on which GG you use). The nice thing is that it has less shooting restrictions than the other two methods, depending on the GG.

As I mentioned, I am using a DIY Mid-Format adapter that I built. It uses the spinning method. However, it's much larger than the SGBlade. I like the compact design of the Blade and the interchangable GG idea for different bokeh looks. Also, I'm sure the Blade and all other professionally made adapters use better materials than I did and I think their image quality is better, overall. It cost me about $60 to buid my adapter (not counting the cost of the mid format lens and achromat).

There a person that I met from one of the other forums who is shooting a 50's period film set to be released in the spring. She uses the Letus extreme vibrating adapter.

Take a look at her footage: Search videos for 'Deuce of spades' on Vimeo

Although she is using an HVX 200, it also works well with the A1.

Again, the decision will be based on budget and how you intend to use the adapter. If you go to DVXuser.com - The Filmmaking Community , there is a section dedicated to 35mm adapters. You'll be able to find out just about anything you need to know there.

You can find a thread with my experiences building my adapter there too (with pictures):

Mid-Format DOF Adapter - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

Thanks once again. I've been reading about DOF all day, I've only dealt with it in photography, never really had a camcorder that allowed to have a film kind of DOF. I just called a store in London cause they have the Canon XH A1 at very low price, but they told me that to make movies with professional indie-look, I'd be better of with the Canon XL2, wich is a bit more expensive (not that much) but doesn't do HD. They also told me that the progressive scan in the XL2 is much more film like than the one in the A1 wich is more of a high definition television kind of motion. Is this correct? Don't all the Canon cameras use the same progressive scan mode?

Thanks

David

I'm not sure I agree with their assesment. Other than having the ability to change lenses, it has the same lack of DOF issues as all 1/3" chip cameras. Also, you're limited to SD.

Also, my GL2 doesn't have 24f (25f for you). So the XL2 probably doesn't either. The only frame mode I have on the GL2 is 30f. Maybe the Pal version has 25f. Not sure.

I have a GL2 which uses the same process as the XL2 except that it has a fixed lens. I'm here to tell you that the image from the A1 is much better. Remember that the A1 can shoot in SD as well. Better yet, shoot in HDV and down convert to SD. Many say that results in a better SD image than begining in HD.

When I need SD, I shoot in HDV..and load the HDV into an SD timeline in my NLE. This lets me pan and scan if necessary in the 4:3 SD aspect ratio. Or, I can simply render 16x9 SD.

Others may not feel the same way, but having both cameras, this is my experience. In my opinion, if you want to spend more and get interchangable lenses, get the H1.

Hi David
When I bought my XH A1 I went to a regular dealer and got a bona fide Canon not a grey import. I have no idea which company you have been talking to but I would suggest that it is a good idea to buy from somebody with a reputation who is going to give you good backup if it goes wrong. I think it's worth paying the extra for the peace of mind.

Hi Richard,

Thanks for your advice, I also think it's important to be extra careful when we buy these little toys. I said it has a very low price but I think it's the normal price in the UK. It's my country (Portugal) that has very high price for that camera. To give you an idea, the lowest price I can get in my country for the XH A1 is: 3400 eur (£3200, give or take).

And this store I mentioned is selling at £1950 (1 year guarantee) wich I think should be the standard price in the UK. I'm going to London in February to buy the camera (and also see London cause I've never been there). Anyone knows a good reliable store in London where I can get the camera? And possibly the 35mm adapter...

Thanks

David

The SGBlade is made in the UK. You might contact them directly. Maybe they can give you a personal demo.

I was walking past Calumet near Euston Station the other day and they had the XH-A1 for £2200. Calumet is reputable company.

Thanks for sharing, I will look for it! I'm still reading and trying to decide wich camera is better for what I need. I really need a camera that will help me get a film look. I know the camera isn't everything (far from it), but there should be some differences, some cameras that are more directed to video, others to independent filmmaking. For what I need (filmmaking) and considering the budget £2200-2600, is the A1 my best choice? I wish I could try all these different cameras but where I live that's not that easy, so I'm relying on other people's opinion.

Thanks!

David

David,

If I were in your position, I would go to exposureroom.com and vimeo.com and search for video from all of the camera's that your are considering. Take a look at the footage and decide which one looks more like film to you. There are quite a few short films out there on those two sites.

my choices would be between:

A1
HVX 200
EX1

Based upon your budget, you could get a new A1s, a used HVX and maybe 1 P2 card, or save some more for an EX1 and SxS cards. You could also get a Canon Canon 5D Mark II Digital SLR. Besides stills, It shoots up to 8 min of 1080P HD and doesn't need an adapter to get DOF because it has a larger sensor. its about the same price as an A1s, I think. Of course then you need to buy lenses. Also, there are no professional audio connections and you don't have the image control that the A1 has. Oh, and it looks like a still camera. :)

Thanks, great info! The HVX seems a bit expensive, but in the used market should be at the same price as a new A1. Do you think it's worth the difference in price?

I also found this at Cnet regarding the A1:

"The bad:
No 720p recording capability; coarse, low-resolution LCD."

No 720p recording?? What does this mean? I thought this camera recorded HD, is this information at CNET correct?


Thanks

David

It just means that it doesn't have native 1280x720P recording. Most of the stuff that I post is 720p. I just do it in post as opposed to in camera.

Yeah, the HVX is a good option. It's native resolution isn't as high as the A1 but it's color depth is better. The big problem is the cost of the P2 cards.

I've been watching some amazing footage taken with the A1. Check this clip out:

YouTube - Quick test with XH A1 and SgPro on Floatcam stedycam

Do you think this was shot with the native A1 lens (apart from the 35mm adapter)? It looks amazing, but of course it also had plenty of post work. I don't have a Mac, but I suppose Adobe Premiere can also get this kind of results, right? What do you think of that video?

Thanks

David

Speaking personally, I wouldn't consider the Panasonic HVX200. P2 cards are very expensive and very limiting, and the camera only really does 720, as far as I can tell, not 1080, though it is supposed to do it rather well. If you like Panasonic models, try an HMC151, which uses SDHC cards (I think) and the AVCHD codec. A second-hand EX1 may be a better proposition, especially with the SDHC adapter that allows you to use SDHC media. The 1/2" CMOS chips will give you a little better control of DOF, too. Even so, it's likely to cost 50% - 70% more than a new XH-A1s.

£2200 - £2300 is the going rate for an XH-A1s, but you might be able to get the older XH-A1 for under £2000. Again speaking personally, I think the new "s" model is worth the extra. Mind you, the way business is at the moment, if you go into a London dealer with £2000 in cash in your hand (or the equivalent in Euros) and ask for an XH-A1s, you are not likely to be turned away.

HTH

That was shot with the SGPro 35mm adapter (the predicessor of the SGBlade). You can't change the lens on the A1 so technically its the native lens with and adapter and then some other brand of SLR lens, most likely.

I think they went a little overboard on the shallow DOF but the quality on you tube isnt very good so it's hard to tell. A lot of people like the look of the SGPro bokeh (me included) and you can get the same look with the SGBlade and the RotoRazor2 GG.

I've used Adobe Premier, Edius Pro, Avid, Vegas 8, and SpeedEdit. They all have tools to do color correction, etc. You just have to learn how to use the tools and as some modicum of artistic talent to know when something looks good or not.

I like the EX1 as well, along with the larger sensor. My only concern is that the chip is CMOS and it uses rolling shutter so you do have the potential of getting "jello" video when doing fast pans, etc.

First thing I'd say is that anything that detracts from reality will reduce the audience's ability to 'believe the images and get lost in the movie'. So going for the film look may be your objective, but following in the footsteps of the accountants who set up a 24p shoot and 48p play all those years ago isn't the answer.

Those rates were chosen as the bare minimum for cost reasons, and even so the screen brightness had to be carefully limited because of visible flicker. I'm sure this won't answer your objective, even though it'll give you 'movies with a film look'.

tom.

Hi,

I notice they had a lot of DOF on that video. How do you overdo it? Excuse me for my ignorance, but I never really used a 35mm adapter, does it have a way to control how shallow you get the DOF? Oh, and one more thing, from what I've read, it makes the image go upside down right? How do you overcome that?

Thanks

David

You can manipulate the DOF with your choice of lens focal length (i.e., 100mm as opposed to 50mm, etc.), spacing of subject from the background / subject from the camera, and the fstop you chose to use. One thing you need to understand, if you get an adapter, is don't expect to hook it up and get the shots you want right out of the box. It takes lots of practice. For that matter, so does the A1. It's by no means a point and shoot camera.

As far as the upside down image goes, there are a number of solutions:

1) Many adapter makers offer a "flip" module for an additional cost. This flips the image right-side-up so the camera records it right-side-up.

You can get flip modules for the SGBlade, Redrock M2, Brevis MP.1. The Letus Extreme has it built in. The Letus is a vibrating adapter. They do make a spinning adapter called the ultimate but it costs as much as the A1.


2) Use an external monitor that is flipped upside down and use that for framing and focusing your shots. By the way, you'll likely want an external monitor anyway because even upside down, focusing can be a challenge with shallow DOF. Once you load your footage into your NLE, you flip it there and then edit it.

3) Learn to shoot with your image upside down and then flip it in your NLE like in option 2.

With my DIY adapter, I've actually gotten pretty good shooting upside down :)


Oh, I ran accross this Trailer shot with the A1 and the Brevis adapter. I think it's a pretty good example of at least one kind of film look you can get with this camera and an adapter:

www.cinevate.com/images/mantoman.wmv

This video looks like a movie. I can't tell the difference, it definitly has that film look. How much post work do you think it took? I can't begin to imagine, or maybe a preset loaded to the camera can help achieve this?

Thanks

David

I'm sure there was some color correction, but I think lighting, framing, camera movements, editing had much more effect on the look...of course the adapter helped a lot with the DOF.

It just proves that it can be done with the A1 and of course lots of talent.

David,

here's another "film" shot with the A1, this time with the Letus Extreme adapter:

Une Autre Nuit (Another Night) on Vimeo

It has a nice cinematic feel...

Amazing stuff. Unbelievable what you can do with a prosumer camera. I was thinking of the most important things I need to buy when I go to London. I was thinking, of course the A1, as well as the SGBlade (SGblade emailed me and told me that the SGblade with ROTOrazor 1 only looses about half stop of light, but I'm opened to other suggestions), a SteadyCam (wich one?), a tripod and probably new batteries and tapes.

Watching that video I also saw some travelings the camera does at the begining inside the gas station. What can be used for that?

Thanks

David

I read the thread on that short. The guy who made it is only 17 years old. The camera movements were made by a home-made crane and dolly. He used all natural lighting. Pretty amazing.

The Steadicam Merlin works well with the XH A1.

Wow, I've checked the price on that one and it's about $900, is this correct? Is there any cheaper option with good quality? I'm not sure I'm ready to give that kind of money for a steady cam...

Well, for $85 USD you can get a SpiderBrace 2. It's no Merlin but it does a bang-up job for what it is and what it costs. I never leave home without it. ;-)

There's also something called the StabilizerFlex for not too much more $: http://www.stabilizerflex.com/

I want to buy one of these if they ever get back in stock...

You can get an Indicam for about half that, it's similar to the small Glidecams but with a better gimbal.

The design of the Merlin is somewhat unique and amongst its attributes is that it will be less fatiguing to operate, due to lighter weight and positioning of the handle under the gimbal.

Charles,
Do you prefer the Merlin over the Indicam?

I've got a Spiderbrace too and never use it. It's a completely different piece of kit to a Merlin.

The Spiderbrace is not bad but if I am doing that kind of shoot I prefer my Fig Rig as it let's me do a wider range of shots.

I haven't tried any of the other stabilisers but I'd say the Merlin is worth the money - especially if you are trying to make a film.

When will you be in London, David? Do you know about the Broadcast Video Expo at Earls Court, 17th - 19th Feb? It would be a good chance to try out the cameras you are interested in and the various accessories, and maybe find a few bargins. For example, you won't know whether the weird-looking Fig Rig is useful to you until you try it. Don't be put off by the "Broadcast" tag - it's for anyone serious about making videos. (Used to be called Video Forum.) Entry is free if you register in advance.

What are you going to do about audio? As others around here will tell you, it's at least as important as the pictures. Personally, I'd spend my budget on good quality audio equipment before I'd consider a 35mm adaptor or a steadicam. Have a good look at the DVi audio forum. There's lots of good advice there, and it applies whatever camera you use.

I'll second Mark's views on the London Video Expo. It is the place to go if you want to contrast and compare. Loads of camera bags in all colours, prices and sizes. Video lights galore. Tripods big and small. Want a wide converter? Take your cam and shoot through all of them, decide at your leisure back home. Lanc controller? Loads to choose from. Steadycam thingies? There's all varieties from the sensible to the dorkish. Seminars, bargains, real experts and the day won't be long enough. I go for three days on the trot every year.

tom.

Actually I'm going to London in the first weekend of April, so unfortunately I won't be able to be at that Expo :( Seems like an excelent place to try out everything. I think I'm going with the A1. As for audio, I completely agree with you. It's very important. I have two mics that I use with my band (yes, I have a rock band), one of them is the Shure SM57 used to capture guitar amps and the other is a Shure SM58 used to mic the voice. Are these any good to use on a film? What other important gear should I get for good quality audio?

As for 35mm adapters it seems important but it's kind of a new world for me that I'm still entering. Seems like it's not just the adapter, but some other thing to flip the imagem, the lenses, etc. I will start doing some serious reading about it, any good links to start with?

Thanks!

David

Hi Dave,
The audio forum is really the place for this discussion, but briefly, no, the SM57/SM58 are not really suitable except perhaps for interviews or voice-overs. They are dynamic mics and need to be very close to the sound source. That's brilliant for a rock band on stage (avoiding feed-back, etc.) but limiting on a film set. Capacitor/electret mics have much more reach than dynamic mics but need a power supply. This is usually 48v "phantom power" on proffessional mics. The good news is that the XH-A1 provides phantom power on the XLR sockets.

Part of your choice is the pick-up pattern, which affects where you place the mics. Popular choices include short shotguns or hypercardioids for picking up actor's dialogue from 2 - 10 feet away, tie-clip mics (also called lavaliers) if you want to get in close, cardioid or stereo pairs for ambience and sound effects, and lots more....

Then there are questions of mixers with limiters vs. running straight into the camera, and using a different person to monitor and record the sound from the one operating the camera.