Sell Me On The XH-A1
 

Greetings all...

I am looking to get a new camera to shoot weddings and strongly considering the XH-A1. If you would, could you please tell me why getting it would be a good choice? And maybe even tell my it may not be.

Thanks!

Forget about it. The XH A1 has just recently been replaced by the XH A1S. That's the one you want.

Depends on your budget I suppose. The A1 is a great camera. And yes, Chris is right, the A1S is coming out, but I personally don't recommend getting it if money is an issue.

1. The changes in the A1S aren't drastic, though they do make the A1 a better camera.

2. Now that the A1S is coming out, people will be scrambling to drop their A1s, thus the already sort of cheap re-sale market may be even cheaper. I got my A1 a few months ago for 3,000 with lots of extra stuff. I've seen them go for less recently. I anticipate them going for even less in the coming months.

The pro's of the A1 are: it's pretty lightweight, it has rings for focus iris and zoom whose intensity you can adjust, color reproduction is awesome and the plethora of presets available for free out there make it even better, good on battery, nearly everything is customizable, peaking and magnification, the controls and buttons are very intuitive and placed right where you would naturally reach for them (with the exception of the AF button).

Cons: the internally mounted battery scares me a bit (afraid it will get stuck deep in there one day), firewire port is notoriously weak, no covers for the xlr plugs (dirt and whatnot can get in in dirty environments), lcd is a bit small, no component out, lens not interchangeable, the eyepiece is virtually unusable to me, onboard mic is kind of loosely attached (I hear so that it doesn't snap when stress is put on it, but some people have had theirs completely fall off).

I'm sure there are more in both categories but those are the ones that come to mind right now. I also recommend getting the Sony MRCK1 compact flash memory recording unit. Never buy tapes again!! It works like a charm.

Actually, within the context of what an "S" model is about, the changes are major. The tactile feel of the control rings, for instance, makes a *huge* difference. Having OIS as a button instead of a menu item makes a huge difference. All of the audio changes, 6-pin FireWire, all of those things make for an important set of updates to the XH line.

Never an issue as long as you're using genuine Canon batts instead of imitations.

Another reason to choose the XH A1S instead.

Actually the original XH series does indeed have component out.

I don't understand -- Canon already makes an interchangeable lens camcorder; it's the XL H1A. If you want interchangeable lenses, then that's the camera you should buy, not the XH series.

My first reply to "forget about the A1" has more to do with its availability than anything else. The A1 is going away, to be replaced by the A1S... a much-improved camcorder for the same price.

Your point about buying used is fine; no doubt there will be a number of used A1's on the market, at great prices. But as far as buying new, which is what I assumed the original poster was asking about, he is much better off getting an A1S with all of the improvements for the same money as a new A1. Pretty soon the A1 will be gone completely, since it's being replaced by the A1S. That was the point I was trying to make.

Remember, not everyone is comfortable buying a used camera. Some people prefer to buy new, and a new A1S thoroughly trumps a new A1. I wanted to make sure that the original poster understands this.

Someone who says the A1S changes aren't drastic doesn't understand what an "S" model is in the first place. Someone who says that the "S" model updates aren't important obviously hasn't actually held one, seen one, or researched it enough.

I'm not an XHA1 owner, but for the money, it consistently has one of the nicest images out there.

In regards to the S model, I'm a cheapskate and am more than willing to give up a few niceties to save a few bucks. I'd see if I could get the origonal XHA1 on the cheap, but that's just me. UNLESS, unless the S model is better in low light situations, I don't know if it is or not, but depending on the type of work you want to do with the camera this could be worth the extra money.

A1 or A1s depends upon a number of things. Price difference versus the improved features on the A1s. Decreasing availability of the A1 will make that point moot before long.

To the broader issue on the value of the XH line compared to other cameras, there is a lot to like with the Canon.
- Custom presets give an infinite combination of looks
- 20x zoom with great Canon glass
- Very long battery life
- Mostly ergonomic packaging
- Great size for run & gun
- Decent (but not great) low light performance - typical of cams in this class (?)
- Images will look great (if I don't do something stoopid)

I have the A1 and some shortcomings have been overcome in the A1s but this is what I don't like with my unit:
- No concurrent focus and zoom (fixed on A1s?)
- No concurrent use of on-board mike and XLR inputs
- Can't use one XLR for line level and the other for line level
- Positioning of the shot review button (I hit it instead of mag when in rain cover)
- Overly sensitive zoom rocker
- No OIS button (fixed on A1s?)
- Audio AGC for both channels not completely independent of one another
- LCD is too small
- Viewfinder is all but useless (but I almost never use it)

After over a year of pretty heavy use in a variety of situations I am more than pleased with the Canon, in spite of its shortcomings. Do I like what I've read about the A1s? You bet. Am I going to sell my A1 to get one? Nope. I can continue to work within its limitations and be perfectly happy.

I did a ton of research before I put my money down and I found nothing that came close. I liked some of the Sony's in the US$2k+ range (as I recall) but wasn't comfortable with the CMOS sensors.

Now... take all of this with a grain of salt since I did make the spend and my ego wants me to defend the purchase. Can't look like a complete yabo in public now, can I?

I love a guy with a self effacing sense of humor. Excellent points all the way around. I can add a little to what you've pointed out.

None of the sub $5000 cameras have an EVF that is worth a darn.

The new Sony VX1000 is in the price range of the XHA1's and will be better in low light, but I haven't seen any footage out of it yet since it just started shipping. Traditionally the Sony's just have a different look than the Canons. I'm a Sony owner, but I really like something about the Canon look. Maybe it's just cause it's different than what I see all the time.

Sorry, you are right about component out. I was thinking of HDMI.

I didn't post my response to refute your own, I was pointing out a reasons to buy the A1. Price is a big point for most people and I assumed that it probably would be for someone posting on the forum about which camera to buy. If he wants to buy new, then your point is very valid...they cost basically the same. Also, I was answering his question rather than just saying, "don't worry about it, buy this camera instead". No, I have never held or used an A1S, but judging from Canon's press release, many of the changes are strengthening of the A1s weak points -- things that are important to a lot of people and not so important to some. When I said "not drastic" I meant that if he was expecting a totally different camera that somehow shot better footage or something, he would not get that choosing the pricier A1S over the A1. A lot of people out there use the A1 just fine for the type of work they do and to wave off the A1 as somehow incapable of fulfilling the needs of a guy who wants to shoot weddings is ridiculous.

I also didn't say "I" wanted interchangeable lenses at all. I have no need for them as I shoot 24p footage with a 35mm adapter in front. I was pointing out what the A1 doesn't provide the ability to do -- a specific point I ran across when I was doing my own research into buying the A1. I just thought it might be useful to note that for him.

You're right, the A1 might be going away (as all cameras eventually do) but this guy was asking why to and why to not buy the A1, not why to and why to not buy the A1S. I was just providing my own perspective on that.

In Europe the xh-a1s has increased 1500 euro in price, considering that I bought my xh-a1 a few months ago for 3000 and that's it now is selling for 4500 that is a quite dramatic price raise.

If I had to buy again now it would be a Sony fx1000 or a Pana hmc150, the price difference to the new A1 is just too big

Where would be a good place to get a used one?

B&H sell used gear. You should also check the for sale sections on this board and others you might frequent.

Time and budget
 

If you need a camera right now, get the XH-A1 and haggle for a good discount because of the forthcoming S-version, new Sony models, credit crunch, etc.

If you can wait until January, compare the XH-A1S, FX1000 and Z5. Personally, I expect the XH-A1S will still win out over the Sonys on price/performance, but like Tripp, I'm a Canon fan and have never regretted choosing the XH-A1 over the Sony FX7/V1 and FX1/Z1 (though I wish the Canon was smaller and lighter).

If you can, get your hands on both the XH-A1S and the FX1000/Z5, preferably at the same shop, because what's meat for me maybe poison to you. Personally, I wouldn't consider the card-only Panasonic at the moment because of the extra work to archive stuff. I still need a camera with a tape drive.

HTH

In the Spring JVC is supposed to come out with a new camera that shoots 1080i as well as the progressive JVC formats, utilizing progressive CCDs.

The camera is planned to use SD cards. The mockup under glass that I saw at a show is considerably smaller than the XH-A1.

I mention this camera here, because the assistant sales manager from New Jersey told me that the XH-A1 was being used as a basis for establishing minimum specifications. The new camera is suppose to minimally meet and then exceed specs of the XH-A1.

I am particulary interested in this camera, because I have a JVC HD110 in addition to my XH-A1. The new JVC camera would let me be more discrete when needed as well as match formats better to my the HD110. (I also already have a lot of SD cards for DSLR use.)

As money becomes tighter and production techniques adjust, there should be some interesting new cameras to consider.

Just wait for the XH-A1S, it has some very important improvements.
(See photo of the new XH-G1S)

We had the chance to explore the whole camera today and it has some very very very nice improvements.
In other words: you could almost say i'm in love with this new camera.

I've never understood that way of thinking; I consider it to be a false economy. The money is something you spend one time. The camera is something you use consistently, over and over again. I'd much rather spend a little extra and have the upgrades -- in my opinion that's well worth a few bucks. If the camera is a business tool, then it's going to earn that money back anyway.

No concurrent focus and zoom (fixed on A1s?) -- fixed on the A1S.
No concurrent use of on-board mike and XLR inputs -- fixed on the A1S.
Can't use one XLR for line level and the other for line level -- fixed on the A1S.
Positioning of the shot review button -- unchanged
Overly sensitive zoom rocker -- fixed on the A1S (smooth ramp)
No OIS button (fixed on A1s?) -- fixed on the A1S.
Audio AGC for both channels not completely independent -- fixed on the A1S.
LCD is too small -- unchanged
Viewfinder is all but useless (but I almost never use it) -- unchanged

I think you meant to say the FX1000, but the VX1000 sure brings back some nice memories... hard to believe it was thirteen years ago. That camera started the whole DV revolution.

In the U.S., the MSRP is the same between the A1 and the A1S... in the U.S. it's $3999 for either camera. It's standard procedure for dealers to discount older inventory to clear the way for new products, but my point is that Canon has placed the A1S at the same price as the A1 was when it was new.

Dude... seriously... you're already there: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/private-classifieds/

Not in Europe, the xh-a1 allways had a price around 3400 Euro since it came out, that's why i was surprised the 1s was so much more expensive. The only reason why I had to pay less was for a temporary cash back from Canon and because I found a dealer that sold it at bottomprice. Ofcourse the cashback is also a temporary discount to clear their inventory like you said.

I would be using it mostly to shoot weddings. How is it in low light situations? And stupid questions, but 24f mode, that is supposed to be like 24p I assume. What is the difference? What is 60i and 30f? And it still shoots standard definition, right (another stupid question)?

Sorry for all the obviously stupid questions, but I'm an editor first and only really shoot when I need to.

One thing on the new updated cams that kind of interests me is the way the handle strap is orientated. It's the same slant as the DVX and makes it more comfortable to hand hold.

Any comment on that Chris H.?

Thanks

Although I don't always subscribe to Chris' theory, in this case it's definitely worth it. The A1s addresses all of the significant shortcomings of the camera's functionality. Even if you pay US$200 for the A1s over a new A1, you could easily save that and more if you need to source audio from a mic and line input simultaneously. A good line/mic mixer will cost much more than that.

I don't think I've ever seen the A1 ever advertised at any retailer at MSRP. Oh wait. I did see that price at the big box electronics store that just went chapter 11. I got mine for about US$3,250 in October 2007 after US$250 rebate. Price is now US$3,100 without rebate. It will be interesting to see what the A1s street pricing ends up being.

To follow up on your previous questions, if you're using it for this I'd recommend the A1s. You'll want to new functionality.

That's a huge thread in and of itself. Oh wait. I think there is at least one. (grin) Try this one first.http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-xh-...non-xh-a1.html

It's functionally equivalent to 24p. Canon's implementation is sufficiently unique that they call it it 24f. I could bore you with details. Oh... actually I can't.

60i= 60 fields per second/interlaced 30f= 30 frames per second/progressive

It will shoot SD but most (including me) like to shoot HDV and convert to SD in the camera during transfer to the pc.

There is no difference between 24F and 24p.

60i is the normal interlace mode. 30F is 30p, which is the progressive scan mode. The difference is in the look of the video.

Yes, all those frame rates in standard definition as well as HD.

Daniel, on this site there is no such thing as a stupid question. The only stupid question is the one that doesn't get asked, because somebody might be afraid to ask it. We tend to get highly annoyed and mildly belligerent with frequently asked questions, no doubt about that. But there are no stupid questions here.

Well there's no change in the orientation really -- it's just a bigger hand strap (the same one that's on the XL H1S / H1A). It's much bigger and definitely more comfortable than the old one, that's for sure.

I've got the XH A1...started drooling as soon as I read what Chris said about the tactile feeling of the control rings; but Daniel, if you're ever going to shoot off-tripod, read this again and know from someone who knows....you want the OIS as a button instead of a menu item. That is the one thing I can barely stand about my sweet camera.

Thanks for answering all my stupid questions. If you ever have a silly Avid one, let me know and we'll be even.

Heres another one- what is OIS? And why why do you shoot HD and then convert to SD? What is the advantage of that?

Optical Image Stabilization -- helps eliminate shake when holding the camera by hand.
HD downconverted to SD yields a better looking SD image.

It also future-proofs your material if you ever want to go back and work with it in HD.

OK, question...can you set a custom key to control the OIS, like on my GL2?

This whole A1, A1s thing is killin' me.
In February I will have enough cash put aside to buy the A1 at B&H's current price, which is just over 3K.
At least that was the plan.

Now I don't know what to do.
Do I save up the extra to get the A1s at an unknown higher price, or pick up a used A1 for less...

Arggghh....

Yes -- see http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/965399-post66.html

Remember, the money is spent just once -- the camera is used over and over again.

For what it's worth, I've owned an A1 for something like a year and a half, have used it to shoot everything from short films to paid jobs where it was cut against cameras like the F900. It's been a solid camera and I have enjoyed it. Incidentally I use a Blackmagic Intensity Pro card to capture it as ProRes for editing--have never cut in HDV.

For me that would be an easy choice. If money would be no problem I would have bought a hd shouldercam long ago, also money spend once as chris said and its the camera that you use over and over again. But unfortunately most people, like me, are on a tight budget and (In europe) 1500 euro more is a lot of money. You get what you can afford and for me that would be the A1. Eventhough the a1s is an improved camera it will not mean I will make better productions with it.

Charles, maybe a dumb question, but when you capture footage as ProRes, is the Intensity Pro tethered to your XHA1 or do you go from tape to Intensity to editor?

Since this came up, I'll ask a couple of additional details:

What software are you using to edit?
What computer are you using (processor, motherboard, video card)?

Thanks!

Daniel:

I am a Canon, JVC and Panasonic user. You are getting some great feedback here. I suggest you also take a look at the offerings from other manufacturers so you can see competitive products.

I have been using the XH-A1 (not s). I think it is about the best implementation of the HDV camera you will find. It's only minor drawback is the 1/3" image sensor sensitivity and noise is not quite as good compared to some other cameras with a little newer and/or more sensitive (better low light) 1/3" sensor blocks. However, many people would never notice this in the end product.

Like someone else said, all the different cameras; Sony, Canon, Panasonic, have a little different "look" to them. Do you like the Canon look? Be sure to download some raw footage and check it out. There is plenty here.

Extrapolating forward based on recent history, I'd expect a street price for the A1s at about US$3,500. That's about what the A1 was in summer 2007. Don't know how the whole dismal economic climate might effect that. Any lower prices would likely be driven by Canon since most retailers work of razor thin margins already.

I'd recommend saving your money. Chris' logic on this topic would make Mr. Spock proud.

Wish this thread had been up a week ago, I just received the A1 from B&H today. I shoot action sports, 95% hand held and my GL 1 just gave out. If my GL 1 still worked I could wait until Feb when the street price on the A1s stabilizes. But now it looks like a 900 difference and a wait of 3-4 weeks.

Options keep the Al and use the savings to buy the HV 20 for a tape deck.

Send the A1 back, buy the A1s and have no money for a capture deck.

The type of shooting I do is hard on tape heads as I not keep the camera rolling between plays, ie football huddles, volleyball stoppages.

Hi Doug, welcome to DV Info Net.

There's no doubt about it, a lot of folks around here really like using the HV20 / HV30 as a playback deck, and there's nothing wrong with that. However I'd like to point out that there's nothing wrong with using the XH as a playback deck as well. It has a VCR mode and it's meant to be used that way. The biggest reason *not* to use your XH as a playback deck has nothing to do with putting more wear on the playback heads (that's a myth -- the heads will not wear out like some people tend to think they will). Instead, the main reason is to keep your XH camera free for shooting, by not tying it up for playback and capture use.

You have to be your own judge with regard to how often it'll be used for playback, and whether or not doing so will interfere with your shooting schedule.

I've been using my XH A1 for loading for over a year now. It's fine. If I had clients sitting over my shoulder I'd probably want a deck just for speed, but clients don't see my stuff till the first cut is uploaded, so I'm happy using the camera. I may get an HV30 just because it's cheap now and it would be nice to have. If I do that, I would use it for loading, but it's not necessary at all.

I see a few posts above Noa mentioned he'd go for a big shoulder cam if not for the cost. I came from the big camera world and I hope I never have to go back. The quality I get from the XH A1 is better than with my old DVCAM 2/3" chip camera, and my stuff has intercut with that from other bigger HD cameras and holds up quite well. I can go out on a week's shoot and not have to spend money on the chiropractor afterwards now. And I can use a small, lightweight and inexpensive (under $1K) tripod. If I get a dolly and jib, I can use a lightweight dolly and cheap but effective jib, instead of $6K worth of stuff. I just bought a Merlin Steadicam package for $4K less than what I paid for a cheaper knockoff for the big camera. I can run all day on 2 standard Canon batteries for about $150 each. For the old camera I had $2,400 worth of batteries and a $650 charger, and all that in a $250 Portabrace bag and it weighed more than the camera. For the work I do the Canon is great.

I'm also upgrading from SD to HD. Having dealt with numerous tape drop out problems, I'm afraid to invest in any cameras that is tape based, unless of course, similar image quality can be achieved with a taped based cam for significantly less...

The Panasonic HMC150 is looking very good to me at this point. I was hoping Canon/Sony can come out with a tape-less solution.

I don't get why people would give the A1 a negative for not having a interchangeable lens. Unless you're shooting wildlife, what the heck would you do with interchangeable lens capability like the H1??

But a camera is not an investment in the first place.

At best, it is a business expense. It's then a question of how quickly you can recover that expense. The camera should pay for itself long before the fact that it's "tape based" becomes an issue of obsolescence, and we're a long way from having that happen with HDV.

I consider it as a short term investment, as a camera has the ability to produce income. Most likely, I would be sticking with that camera for at least a few projects so it's an investment in my workflow commitment that is associated with that camera.

My concern of the tape based system is not due to obsolescence and resale value. I'm concerned about dealing with data drop-outs.

I've been using Sony's PHDVM digital mastering tapes and have not seen a single dropout. I have, however, heard a lot of horror stories about corrupted files in the tapeless world. On a typical shoot, if you're shooting with a solid state camera, you're going to need an extra person on the crew to download, check and backup data so you can erase and then reuse your cards, unless you can afford enough cards to get through a shoot and do the data management after the shoot. Another tapeless option is the Firestore drive, and those are available to work with the Canon cameras. You may or may not need more than one drive, depending on the amount you shoot at any one time. Regardless of format, you have to eventually transfer your data so you can reuse the drives or cards. With tape, you keep your original.

Just because tapeless cameras exist doesn't mean tape is going away anytime soon. Sony just came out with a bunch of new HDV cameras this year, including the new Z5, and Canon's upgraded its full pro HDV lineup as well. As Chris said, the useful life of the camera will be over way before HDV goes away. I remember the first time I heard that film was dead...in the early '80s. People still shoot film. And Betacam SP "died" about 10 years ago, but people still shoot Betacam SP--not very many anymore, but just this morning I took some Betacam tapes a client sent me to a dub house.

And, even if you buy a solid state camera...before you get it paid for, there will be a new camera out with yet another means of recording footage and another format. There is no rational reason to think you have to own the latest format equipment--it will be the newest toy only for a little while; change is guaranteed.

Back in the days when every editing facility had Betacam equipment, then we all had to shoot Betacam, or transfer all our footage to Betacam. But those days are long gone. If you shoot for a production house or for a client with his own editing facility, then your only concern might be that you must have whatever format he has. If you finish your own shows, it doesn't matter. If you do your own basic editing and send your projects to a post house, you can give them edited files on a hard drive--it still doesn't matter what you shoot with.

As Chris said, a camera is a business expense. Or it is a hobby expense. It's not a long term investment at all.

That new sony cf card recorder would be a great option for you. It would provide redundant recording data so in case the tape drops out, you have the file on your CF cards to back it up.

With that said, I've had my XH-A1 for a year and shot probably close to over 100 hours on it and it has never dropped a frame on me.