Shooting Concerts - Detailed Inquiries
 

Hello,

A friend and myself are shooting four concerts this week using two XH-A1's. This particular band utilizes tons of red and blue lighting with many fast/extreme shifts in tone and intensity. We will most likely be shooting from tripods positioned in front of the barricade several feet in front of the band. It is possible that we may be shooting handheld from the front row at at least one of the shows (a third individual is going to get a constant wide shot from the soundboard area using a 1-chip Sony HDV cam, but I would like to center on the XH-A1's for the purposes of this thread).

Audio is going to be captured separately by tapers with rigs positioned close to the soundboard and will be synced in post.

We will most likely be shooting in 1080/60i.

I have read all pertinent threads on this board and others and the general consensus appears to be:
SET MANUAL WHITE BALANCE PRE-SHOW UNDER WHITE STAGE LIGHTS
AUTOMATIC FOCUS - ON
AUTOMATIC GAIN CONTROL - OFF
MANUAL IRIS CONTROL
SHUTTER SPEED - 1/60
ND FILTER - OFF

Is the "AUTOMATIC FOCUS = ON" assumption a safe bet, or would it not be wise to rely on the XH-A1's autofocus abilities in this situation?

Can anyone provide clarification on specific gain settings and how they affect and ineract with manual iris control?

Which specific Values should be assigned to the Low, Medium and High Gain Settings for this application?

Is the 1/60 Shutter Speed a definite logical must, or would the standard shutter speed be a more intelligent option? When (if ever) should the shutter speed be adjusted on the fly?

Is utilizing the Zebra Pattern function of the XH-A1 an intelligent choice for this application?

Is there a more accurate approach to manual iris control than simply "eyeballing" and adjusting to taste on the fly (using the Histogram or Zebra Pattern function, etc.)?

Are any of the Custom Presets available on this board suitable as a springboard for this application?

I have heard that the CCD block of the XH-A1 is extremely sensitive and can be physically vibrated by speakers in close proximity to the camera, which causes a constant jitter in the footage. The individual who experienced this phenomenon did not notice the jitter while filming - it was only after he returned home and reviewed the footage on a HD LCD TV that it became apparent (FYI - the camera was mounted on a tripod in this particular instance). Can anyone confirm or disconfirm this and/or provide any solutions that may prevent it from occurring?

I keep a B&W 72mm UV Haze 010 (MRC) filter on my XH-A1 for protection - would I improve image quality by removing it for the duration of the shoot?

Two of these shows are at an outdoor venue. Given that the band will most likely take the stage prior to sundown, would we need to manually white balance on the stage with sunlight remaining then re-balance once the sun is gone (under white stage lights), or is there a method for manual white balance that we can utilize BEFORE the show starts to ensure peak performance for the entire evening?

When given the choice between 60i, 30p and 24p in a concert situation such as the one described above, which would you shoot in, and why?

Any and all information, opinions, tips and experiences would be sincerely appreciated.

Thanks so much!

- Frank

Hi Frank!

>Is the "AUTOMATIC FOCUS = ON" assumption a safe bet, or would it not be wise to rely on the XH-A1's autofocus abilities in this situation?

I would not trust it, it generally focus on center and if the "target" is not there it will "look" for something else...

>Can anyone provide clarification on specific gain settings and how they affect and ineract with manual iris control?

Gain is electronic enhancement. Try to stay close to 0dB unless you can accept some noise in the image. You have to test. Sometimes a bad image is better than no image at all.

> Which specific Values should be assigned to the Low, Medium and High Gain Settings for this application?

Depends on general lighting, try 0, 3, 6. If 0 is useless in your project, just go with 3, 6, 9 or 6, 9, 12. If the concert does not vary in darkness there is no reason to shift between the 3 during the concert.

Is the 1/60 Shutter Speed a definite logical must, or would the standard shutter speed be a more intelligent option? When (if ever) should the shutter speed be adjusted on the fly?

The shutter speed is the speed in which an object can be "frozen" on a frame. 1/50 would be the minimum I think. I question high speeds as 1/15000 would be close to useless - if you need to capture something at that speed you need another type of camera. Canons pro SLR goes up to 1/8000.

>Is utilizing the Zebra Pattern function of the XH-A1 an intelligent choice for this application?

I have found the Zebra to be a bit false. It can the "tuned" in the settings to 70-100 I think. Since your concert is prob. mostly dark Zebra should be no problem - don't shot right into a spot...

> Is there a more accurate approach to manual iris control than simply "eyeballing" and adjusting to taste on the fly (using the Histogram or Zebra Pattern function, etc.)?

Don't think so. You have a slight problem with the dark concert, that req. low f-value = small depth of field, which will have you missing focus all the time.

>Are any of the Custom Presets available on this board suitable as a springboard for this application?

Don't know.

>I have heard that the CCD block

Don't know.

> I keep a B&W 72mm UV Haze 010 (MRC) filter on my XH-A1 for protection - would I improve image quality by removing it for the duration of the shoot?

Don't think so. Not that would balance the chance of damaging the lense.

>Two of these shows are at an outdoor venue. Given that the band will most likely take the stage prior to sundown, would we need to manually white balance on the stage with sunlight remaining then re-balance once the sun is gone (under white stage lights), or is there a method for manual white balance that we can utilize BEFORE the show starts to ensure peak performance for the entire evening?

Use the K (Kelvin) setting on the A1, and tune until you have something that looks like "real life" on the screen. If you get "close" it's good enough, and you can balance it later in editing.

>When given the choice between 60i, 30p and 24p in a concert situation such as the one described above, which would you shoot in, and why?

Neither, 50i, but that's Europe ;)
Can't give you a good reply here, sorry.

>Any and all information, opinions, tips and experiences would be sincerely appreciated.

One thing only - can you edit HDV efficiently - it's a lot of information to move around in a PC.
I'm preparing for some concert myself and in leaning more and more towards DV - it's simply quicker. I don't want rendering times like "days" or having to boost my PC with a V8-engine just to drag those multicam clips around ;)
CineForm says they have a solution to that reducing file sizes with 30%. Granted, HDV looks better, but does your viewers value it?

Regards
Mats

Re: Shooting Concerts - Detailed Inquiries
 

I can indeed!


I'm not sure if my viewers will value it, but, being a perfectionist, I know that I myself will. I just want to produce the highest quality concert video that I am able to with the gear that I currently have.

I sincerely appreciate your input, Mats!


- Frank

Hi Frank,

HD: Good. I might give it a try soon. Right now I'm editing 4-cam concert in DV. Next concert I'll do in HD to test. I'm sure the A1 will do its best.

It's a pitty that most viewers don't value good quality. But hey, they once wrapped fish in Bach's manuscripts...

> Can anyone provide clarification on specific gain settings and how they affect and ineract with manual iris control? <

Adding gain is like push processing with film, and more gain allows a smaller aperture for the same shutter speed. Each 6dB of gain is about equal to one f-stop. Adding gain does add image noise/grain, especially as you move above about 6 dB. And it becomes more apparent in shadows/dark areas of the video.

> Which specific Values should be assigned to the Low, Medium and High Gain Settings for this application? <

Depends one the ambient lighting. If light is generally in short supply, you could try L=0 dB, M=6 dBand H=12 dB for starters.

> Is utilizing the Zebra Pattern function of the XH-A1 an intelligent choice for this application? <

It is the best available method, sort of having a good monitor, for judging exposure of highlights. But it takes pa=actice to use it effectively, especially in venues with special lighting effects.

> Is there a more accurate approach to manual iris control than simply "eyeballing" and adjusting to taste on the fly (using the Histogram or Zebra Pattern function, etc.)? <

Using a good monitor is probably the best bet. Using histogram implies understanding what it means in terms of the final image on tape, and many folks have not developed that skill.

>...CCD...physically vibrated by speakers... <

Can happen, depending on how the sound waves hit the camcorder and their intensity. But the effect is probably movement of the entire camcorder, not just the CCD block.Using OIS might reduce the effects somewhat.

> Any and all information, opinions, tips ... <

You should practice and experiment to get a good feel for what the different settings will give you before the event, especially what the lighting will produce in the camcorder. At the event is no time to experiment. Can you find a practice session somewhere with similar lighting?

Spend some time with the three camcorders together to decide which will give you better results for the wide camcorder. In part judge by how much of the final product will be the wide shot, and try envision how the footage will mix together in the final product.

I just started using the A1 but have shot a lot of concerts with my GL2. My settings for almost all live shows are:

focus: manual
gain: 0, 6 for really dark venues.
shutter: 1/60
frame mode on, anamorphic on
f-stop: adjust accordingly
zebra: 80
whitebalance: indoor factory preset

here's some footage using these settings (except for the crane stuff):

http://www.terraform.tv/ck/epk_final.mov

http://terraform.tv/sc/socialcode.mov

don't have any footage up with the A1, but it looks amazing so far. my settings for the A1 are:

frame rate: 24f
focus: manual
gain: 0, 6 for really dark venues.
shutter: 1/48
f-stop: adjust accordingly
zebra: 75
whitebalance: indoor factory preset

One mistake I notice most people make when shooting concerts is wanting to expose too bright. It's okay to let stuff fall off to black, don't worry if you can't see the guitar player if you're mainly focusing on the singer. If you just worry about exposing your main subject in the foreground your footage will look a lot better than if you try to crank up the gain and get all the background stuff in at the same time. Some might not agree but that's just what I do.

Frame rate 24f - you mean Canons 25F?
Is this a "US issue" since you don't have 25fps as in "PAL land"?
Or is there advantages of using Canon 25F even in "PAL land"?

Yes, North American version. 24f for sure. There probably isn't any real advantage, I just like the way it looks. The most important thing to worry about is good framing and exposure.

that exactly happened to me 2 days ago. Even during the shooting I noticed that the jitter was just going with the rhythm of the drum beat, but I could do nothing about it. I am searching for a solution for next similar shooting....
But the way, the focus was on manual all the time.

You need a rock solid tripod and very sturdy mount.

Do not setup close to the speakers. Sound intensity is higher there.

Try using OIS, it might help.

You can't imagine how loud that was. I simply cannot believe there would be anything louder in the world. My tripod is sturdy, but the air was vibrating hard. The hall was small so no escape from the speaker........

You could try a shooting range. A rifle usually generates 130-140 dB, although for a very short time.

Is there anyway to manually shut off the mic - I'm planning to do some filming on a range and don't want have the A1 to capture any sound.

switch to audio manual, dial down the levels to 0

Yes, ok, this I have tested and knew. My question was unclear (I see it now).
What I meant was: Can the A1 mic. itself handle peaks at 140-150 dB even when the dials are set to 0, or should it be "muffled" to not register the peaks at 140 dB?

> Is there anyway to manually shut off the mic <

Or set the input to XLR and connect connect anything.

Ability of the mic to survive (i.e., not be damaged by) a rifle report will depend of the mic position relative to the muzzle and bore and what your are shooting. Is the mic being hit directly by muzzle blast, or just the sound waves, and are you firing .22 BB caps, or some hot .375 eargesplittenloudenboomer.

The A1 mic itself will probably clip the audio somewhere between 125 and 135 dB SPL due to the limits of the electronics in the microphone itself (not the camcorder preamps). There are mics made for picking up very loud sounds, e.g., the instrument mics used on percussion. If your intent is to record the gunshot sound, consider using a mic designed for high SPLs (e.g., 145 dB SPL at 1% distortion).

Yes, but I was considering the physical sound blast

I think it will be mostly shotguns on a skeet range shot from about 10 meters. You would normally not be very close to the muzzle. The pure blast dies very quickly but the sound travels, but naturally dies with distance rapidly. I'll measure with dB meter first perhaps. A big bore hunting rifle in close compartment is another mater. This I have to measure first.

OK, interesting. The main concern was actually not to get the A1 mic destroyed by blast (sound, not shock wave from muzzle). I'll test record with an Edirol first.

Hmmm... we have deviated from concert a bit - but still interesting IMHO.

At 10m from the shotgun, should not be a problem as far a damage to the mic goes (but the mic may saturate durign the transient) provide it doesn't get hit by stray pellets or bits of a clay.

BTW: I meant to say ...and NOT connect anything to the XLR input...

Can the mic (either shotgun or on-camera mic) really be physically damaged by exceptionally loud sound??

Loud sound causes jitter on video
 

I also have noticed this behavior. I switched from tripod to handheld because i thought the vibrations were coming from the ground but it seems that the air waves have such energy that the camcorder itself vibrates.

An other possible cause can be the loose suspension of the build-in mikrophone.
I put an elastic rubber ring betwee the mike and housing.
Also check that the attenuation switch is on.

My only solution is: take as much distance from the sound source as is possible and use some more zoom.

I did a recruiting film for a police department one time, back in the Betacam SP days, shooting with my BVW300. They had a shooting range that involved concrete bunkers, trees, etc., where the cops would run and jump between barriers in pursuit of a target. I thought it would be very cool if I sat on the ground and got a wide angle closeup as the cop jumped out from behing a wall and fired with his .45 right over the camera. We rehearsed it a few times, and then he did it.

The concussion from the gun was so strong it actually knocked me over backwards. I had one channel way down low, and it's audio was useable. But there was a glitch in the tape where the concussion had caused the tape to lift off the recording head, apparently. It happened right at where the sound was the loudest. It wasn't too noticeable in the shot because of the loud noise and how the camera jerked. But not long after that I had head problems and had to have a head replacement on the camera.There was a hairline crack in a recording head.

Oh yeah, and I couldn't hear anything for a couple of hours. I'm not as dumb now as I was back then and would make that a very long lens shot today.

How far from the gun itself where you?

I think 16:9 format will be good for a skeet range since it have "widescreen" proportions. I must get a pol. filter to enhance sky and gras, possibly it will also enhance the red clay targets.

I was maybe a foot in front, and under it. Way too close. But it was a cool shot.

I can imagine. Perhaps a well-polished 1/2-inch glas would have been used today if you ever made it again?

Bill,
Measured today - 92 dB some meters from shooter.
Although not very strong the shot/sound has a "agressive" characteristics for the human ear. I sampled it and edited it at home. I will use it as "FX" to the A1-footage as it allows me to stand at a distance with the A1 and still get the audio ok.

I shoot a *lot* of concerts and production shows, here's my take on the subject:

1) Shoot progressive. This is a MUST. You want to convey a sense that the event was "larger than life", some people call it "more real than real". Progressive is part of that "look". For NTSC-land that means 24p, 24f or whatever your camera calls it. For PAL-land that means 25p, 25f or whatever.

2) Use Cinegamma to maximise your latitude. Concerts have extremes of contrast in the lighting.

3) Find out what type of lights are used. Tungsten lights such as PAR cans and low-end pro lighting fixtures obviously require a tungsten setting for your white balance. HMI lights are typically at the high-end of pro lighting and actually burn at regular daylight temperature, so set for daylight. Varilites and other top-shelf lights are in this category. Also, if there is a follow-spot then you should white balance to that, regardless of the other lights. Most follow-spots include an inbuilt filter to make them output a daylight colour temperature if the lamp itself is not a daylight HMI. If you white-balance to tungsten for all the other lights but the follow-spot is HMI or daylight then every time you film the main action in the follow spot it will have a horrible blue cast to it. Since you might not get the chance to perform a manual white balance under the follow spot or main stage wash, its best to learn the difference between the types of lighting used on stage thesedays, and learn enough to converse with the lighting operator so you can ask exactly what types of lights are in use.

4) Stick to 1/48th shutter for 24p or 1/50 shutter for 25p. This is not negotiable. If there's not enough light for these shutter speeds then the show is not good enough to film, IMHO!!!

5) You MUST get a soundboard recording. This is not negotiable either. The camera mic is crap, and it will probably overload under the excessive volume if you are shooting from the front row or on stage. I recommend buying a MiniDisc walkman or DAT walkman and be nice to the sound operator - ask for a Front Of House mix, stereo if possible - even if the FOH is in mono, ask the sound operator to pan the instruments into a sensible stereo mix. Try to also get a *seperate* ambient recording from near the soundboard with a good stereo mic. The Shure VP88 is king in that regard. Then you can mix the dry soundboard with the ambient mic in post. *Always* use manual levels for both the soundboard and ambient recordings.

6) Try to get a locked-off wide shot for safeties and cut-aways, even if it's on a crappy camcorder it's better than nothing. Then you can turn a boring 1 camera shoot into a slightly less boring 2 camera shoot and no-one will notice there's actually only 1 "real" camera being operated.

7) Distribute your cameras sensibly.... there's little point having all your cameras in the front row, or in the house or whatever. For a classic two camera setup place 1 in the front row with full freedom of movement to cover the entire width of the stage and place the other on stage with freedom to cover both sides by running across the back if necessary. Make friends with security and make sure everyone is informed that you are official camera operators and should be given full access to shoot whatever angles the band wants. You don't want some over-zealous bouncer giving you grief off stage. For the front row camera try a wide-angle or fisheye for those classic "rock god" shots. If you have a spare camera and tripod, a locked shot on the drummer is always a good option. Drummers are rarely boring to watch! Some of the best 2 or 3 camera shoots are the concerts from the late 60's and 1970's..... Woodstock, Monterey Pop, Isle Of Wight, Jimi Hendrix Plays Berkelely, Led Zeppelin 2 DVD set - especially the Royal Albert Hall concert are all good examples.

8) Plan ahead with your shots - get some crowd shots and general lighting rig cutaways - they can be cut-in almost anywhere and don't have to actually match the song being performed at the time! Be creative and abstract..... shoot the guitarist's foot on his wah-wah pedal, or the drummer on the kick-drum pedal. If the band permits you to have a camera on-stage, go wild with it - put a fisheye on the cam and get some crazy closeups and views down the neck of the guitars or the keyboard.... if the musicians are playful and aware of the camera hopefully they will play up to it. Do the classic 360 degree rotate, but don't overdo it or you will make your viewers sick! If your cams are small, shove one right in the drum kit somewhere for some wild shots of the drummer. If the lighting operator shines blinders on the audience between songs that is your best chance for good crowd shots from an on-stage camera - hopefully the first few rows of people will play up to the camera.

9) If at all possible, get a camera into normally off-limits parts of the venue for interesting angles - such as in the lighting rig, or the balcony, or the follow spot perch. An overhead cam strung from the lighting rig is always interesting for cutaways.

10) Watch Pink Floyd "Pulse" for ideas about exposure.... that show was as much about the lighting rig as it was about the musicians, and it was shot with the lighting in mind. If you are shooting a small band with a small lighting rig, then focus on the band. If you're in a more advanced show you might want to consider giving the lighting some screen-time as much as the musicians.

Just my $0.02

What is the advantage using 25F (as Canon calls it) compared to standard mode?I think that the PAL version of A1 records in 50i as standard, not 25p. What do I benefit using 25F instead of 50i?

You mean GAM: Cine1 (or Cine2)? Which one?

I have read about the "180-degree rule" from a pro from Swedish National Television. Anyone that heard/practised this?

Most people seem to agree 25F and 25p look the same.... it sure beats interlaced!
The aim is to replicate the "unreal" look of film's 24fps 1/48 sec. shutter. Most people think this is part of the reason films look hyper-real or somehow seperated from our boring reality.
Get some concert DVD's and you will quickly notice the difference between those shot interlaced (they look like a news or sports broadcast) and those shot progressive or on film (they simply look like they have higher production values and the show looks better than it probably really was in reality).

The Led Zeppelin 2 disc DVD set is the perfect example of the difference between interlaced and progressive. Many Zep fans hate the Song Remains The Same concert film (called "Madison Square Garden" on the 2 disc DVD) because it is a less than satisfactory performance from the band, but I prefer it to the musically superior Earl's Court video footage purely because it just looks so much better being shot on film! The Earl's Court video looks like crap, it looks like every other lame live TV broadcast. Actually it was taken from a 2" Quadruplex tape of a very early type of giant-screen IMAG at the concert.

I cry everytime I see Pink Floyd's "Pulse" DVD...... why oh why didn't they shoot such an important event on film? HD cameras were not invented at the time (1994).......

I don't know about your particular camera... I own an XL2 and HV20 - both shoot true progressive.

As far as gamma, chose a setting which stretches the blacks and has a low knee for a gentle compression on the highlights.
You can test this by filming a static scene with slight blowouts on the highlights and deep shadows - adjust your your gamma to maximise the detail in the shadows and minimise the area of the highlight blowout.

Can you elaborate on the 180 degree rule? I've not heard of it

Sure can. I read it on the web, posted by a guy at Nat. TV/Sweden.

Breif:
"
Look at the complete stage from above.
Draw a line across the stage (at "some angle" to some of the "actors")
Do not cross the line with any camera
"

Here's the link - In Swedish - but with a good picture

http://www.brollopstorget.se/Fotogra...inspelning.php

It's the first thing you learn in a filmmaking class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/180_degree_rule

Here are some links on this google search:
http://www.google.com/search?client=...=Google+Search

Not sure the 180 rule applies to concerts, except when showing interaction between two musicians, a musician and the audience, etc.

From the XH A1 manual: 25F: "Records with 25 fps progressive." There have been some discussion if this really is 25p or Canon's "version" of it. I don't know. I guess I simply have to test 25F and 50i and compare. I'm not sure A1 makes true 25p - isn't that reserved for only the very best pro cams?

Do you mean that that glossy look of the image, with high contrasts disappears with 25F?

That would be BLK:STRETCH and KNE:LOW on the A1?

I'm not sure the gamma can be tuned other than set to CINE1 or CINE2 as you prev. recommended.

PS. I wonder why not all this (good) knowledge isn't collect by the Canon folks - "Canon XH A1 for Dummies" or similar ;) Any publisher reading this? ;)

Yes, prob. so. Filming a pianist from left and right would work according to the 180-rule if the line runs along the keys, but not if the line was along the axis of the piano. I guess that common sence has to be added to any rule.

However... Matrix... is there any rule valid when paning Neo and Mr. Smith;)