Canon VIXIA HF10 and HF100 flash memory HD cams
 

Canon announced five (5) flash memory camcorders today -- it's a little confusing, so here's the breakdown:

VIXIA HF10 (HD, black) -- $1099 / 16GB internal flash plus SDHC card / AVCHD at 1920 / 12x 3.3mp CMOS / Mic input, manual audio

VIXIA HF100 (HD, silver) -- $899 / SDHC card only / AVCHD at 1920 / 12x 3.3mp CMOS / Mic input, manual audio

FS11 (SD, gray) -- $599 / 16GB internal flash plus SDHC card / 48x 1.07mp CCD / Mic input

FS10 (SD, silver) -- $499 / 8GB internal flash plus SDHC card / 48x 1.07mp CCD / Mic input

FS100 (SD, choice of silver, blue, or red) -- $399 / SDHC card only / 48x 1.07mp CCD / Mic input

Basically you can choose between HD or SD, and dual memory recording (internal flash plus card) or SDHC card only. All of them have a mic input jack. The HF series has a new Mini-AAS jack (Advanced Accessory Shoe) hidden under a plastic tab at the top rear of the body, where you would expect to find an EVF.

VIXIA HF10 pics... click to see 'em big...

VIXIA HF100 pics... click to see 'em big...

FS series pics... click to see 'em big...

Mic inputs even on the lowest end! Wonder if they have HDMI out.

"new Mini-AAS jack (Advanced Accessory Shoe)"

Is this a proprietary plug to Canon?

I'm a little confused; I understood that the AVCHD spec provides for 1080i capture. But the Canon press release about the new VIXIA line says "the VIXIA HF10 Dual Flash Memory and HF100 Flash Memory camcorders offer a new feature called 30p Progressive Mode." Will this 30p capture still have full 1080 x 1920 resolution? If so, what bit rate will be required to deliver that much data? Or do 30p and 60i end up having the same bit rate, just captured differently?

I'd like to know what the maximum bitrates are for the HF10 and HF100.

Same bit rate. Although it's higher than it used to be on other Canon AVCHD camcorders; now 17Mbps to allow Full HD (1920) recording. But 30p and 60i are the same amount of data. For Wes... yes to HDMI output and yes the new Mini AAS jack is a proprietary connection. There will be a new external microphone, the DM-100, to fit in this accessory shoe.

One would think that 1080 30p and 1080 60i would require the same bitrate (Chris beat me to the post). I'd guess the 30p would just be recorded in a 60i AVCHD stream, you just wouldn't really notice because of the lack of pull down.

Since HDV recording to tape uses 25Mb/s bitrate, I suppose AVCHD is using more compression.

I could see some consumer confusion developing over the lovely marketing claim of "Full HD Lens-to-Screen (1920 x 1080 Full HD resolution to capture, record and output)" for the AVCHD camcorders, while the tape-based camcorders actually have a higher bitrate. The final image is what counts, so I guess we'll just have to wait for test results from actual hardware.

I'm probably in the extreme minority here but is it a crazy idea to have one of these cameras scale the captured image 50% to 960x540 and use the entire bitrate that would have been used for the 1080p video on the downsized video.

Not really good for marketing but when I scale my HV20 video to 960x540 and play it on an HDTV, sit back on the couch a proper distance I can't tell the difference between that and the 1080p. For personal use I'd love a tiny SD camcorder that records 960x540 60p.

Just a crazy idea.

And do these cameras process the image at 1440 and blow it back up to 1920 before writing to the card? Not saying that's what's happening but would it be so surprising if it was? And if so then wouldn't capturing 1920 just use extra compression bandwidth and basically just be for marketing purposes.

That's not so crazy. Count me in as wanting 60p capture in a prosumer camcorder, even at some sacrifice of resolution. It ought to be possible at 720 horizontal lines, without the bitrate being too high.

Out of interest, Where did you read that?

I think I'm more interested in the HF10 than the HV30, but as I need a camcorder very soon I'll most likely buy a HV20 then go for the HF10 in the future- If I feel I need it.

I try hard to stress to folks who come to this site that bit rate is *not* the arbiter of image quality. The efficiency of the codec is what matters. You can get a *better* looking image from a *lower* bit rate provided the processing of that codec is more efficient. Don't get caught in the numbers trap. And you are quite right, of course, the proof will be in the final image.

One cannot logically compare bit rates between HDV and AVCHD as they are two different formats.

It also appears it has better Lens and imaging sensors than the HV20/30

HF10
"Canon HD Video Lens with 12x optical zoom, a 3.3 MP Canon Full HD CMOS sensor,"



Is the only difference between the hf10 & the hf100 the memory card thing?


If so I might just be interested in the hf100 in the future

From the official Canon USA specs for the HF10:

FXP (17 Mbps) 2 hours 5 min (to internal 16GB flash) -- allows 1920x1080 Full HD Recording

This is another 'trap'. More pixels don't necessarily make a better image, especially in the absense of good light.

The CMOS chip in the HV series of HDV camcorders (HV10/20/30) is larger, with a slightly lower pixel count (1/2.7 and 2.96 megapixels) than the HF series of AVCHD camcorders (1/3.2 and 3.31 megapixels).

Yes. That and the body color are the only differences.

Two different codecs, isn't it? I keep hearing that AVCHD doesn't handle motion well, despite offering "Full HD Lens to Screen" resolution.

Actually, I'm trying to get OUT of the "numbers trap." But it's very difficult to discern real-world performance from the various numbers which the marketers sling out. As you pointed out, codec efficiency can be a "choke point" which may nullify other features such as pixel count, imager size, and even bit rate.

Thanks :)

I wonder how Final Cut Pro handles AVCHD - I've been put off AVCHD because of people saying it is difficult to edit with NLEs

DVInfo is the cure for the numbers trap. You get honest information from the pros here and you can decide for yourself.

As far as figureing out new products like this you really have to wait for reports from owners.

Where's that manual focus dial? I wish these guys had a focus ring the lens looks like it protrudes enough to have one.

FCP6 takes in AVCHD as AIC or ProRes422.

Sorry to hijack with another question

Is AVCHD 4:2:2?

Would ProRes422 give me a much bigger file size than AVCHD?

Thanks

Probably have to use the joystick for the manual focus.

4:2:0 isn't it?

Hey Chris:

Have you actually seen one of these yet ?

Question I have from standpoint of budget indie shooter:

1. Mic input: Standard Mini Jack ?

2. Is there a separate Head phone monitoring capability not tied to the AV jack and menu switching as required by HV20 ?

3. Auto Focus: IAF and Standard ?

4. How is manual focus achieved.

5. AVCHD: I will check this out at Cineform thread, but have we gotten pulldown and conversion lined out in Cineform yet.

Just had a thought -

It says the HF10s lens filter size is 37mm where as the hv20/30 is 43mm

Does this mean it uses a smaller lens? Would this degrade quality at all?

It could be the same lens, just with a different filter threads.

Slow Motion Feature?
 

These new cams look great - except for the lack of a slow motion setting. Did I miss this in the fine print?

Shoot 60i, convert to 60p in post. Makes for really nice slow motion.

Some press releases, nothing new...

http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedat...107_hidef.html

http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedat...tandardef.html

Not yet, but one week from today I will. The only people outside of Canon that can see these camcorders today are those folks attending CES in Las Vegas who drop by Canon's booth... and that ain't me (not at CES).

Yes. standard 1/8th-inch stereo mini jack.

No. Like the HV20, it's the yellow A/V jack which doubles as a headphone jack.

Yes to both.

Don't know for sure but probably via the joystick.

That's a CineForm question.

The image sensor in the HF10 is physically smaller than the HV20/30, therefore the diameter of the lens is also smaller, and no this does not noticeably affect quality.

If it was in there, surely they'd be making a big deal out of it, so no I don't think you missed anything. It's just not one of their features.

Thanks for answering all my questions Chris DVI is proving to be a great site :)

Thanks Chris. Will look forward to your review when you actually get hands on.

What are current editing options for this camera....

Editing options are anything that can handle AVCHD.

I think we have some extensive discussions about that in our AVCHD forum.

Anyone want to start an HF10 vs. HV20/30 thread? :)

Shall I whip up a comparo chart, a la http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/cano...rehv10hv20.php ...?

How about just adding the HV30 to that one? And then making another one for the Canon AVCHD camcorders.

Since the differences between the HV20 and HV30 can be summed up in one paragraph and a photo, I'll probably just update the page to include the HV30 changes at the bottom.

Is AVCHD essentially the same as AVC (h.264)?

It is good to see that the data rates are increasing, but they are still well below what HD movies are encoded at. 25mb/sec and up, even for AVC or VC1 encodes.