Newbie: Hardware & software - Advice
 

Hi i've been doing basic (and still learning) videography & editing - my sony camcor using 'movie maker'. I've been mths reading up here on the 5d2 and its really a blast!..the HD, oh wow...the rigs & accessories! I'm saving up for the 5d2 done! but here is where i need advice the support 'hardware': I need to upgrade my PC and have decided on the iMac 2.66GHz (reason budget) - now the software for editing, which one? the price of upgraded ones like FCE & FCS dont seem to be too much. I narrow down to FCS pro 7 and there is a 'system requirement' which i need to 'topup' the OS, extra cost - isit worth it?

Right PC - any upgrade?
Which software?

Thanks pros! I'm really enjoying it here even better when i complete my gears..woowh!

cheers

You made the right choice in going for a Mac as people seem to have far less issues with handling 5DII video on the Mac than on Windows. If all you have been using is Windows Movie Maker then you will find that iMovie '09 that is installed on all Macs is a fantastic improvement on WMM. To start learning video editing then save your money initially & use iMovie until you find that there is stuff you want to do that iMovie is not capable of. Then you can decide on which software you need for more advanced use FCE or FCP. Here is a great detailed review of iMovie '09 iMovie 09

BTW Those cheap upgrade prices for Final Cut require that you already have a copy of the previous version. If you do not already have FCS2 then you cannot use the FCS3 upgrade pack.

I take the opposite position. You are limiting yourself to an expensive proprietary system.

I have been editing with Vegas, using NeoScene from Cineform for a codec, all with a $1,200 off the shelf Dell machine. No problems. Happy days, and money left to mess with lenses and other equipment.

I suspect that since there are more PC users out there, that Nigel takes reports of issues being more numerous, as proof of his theory.

After spending most of my working life in the IT industry working with Windows since before V1 all I can say is that my recommendation to any non-professional computer user would be to purchase a Mac. The difference in price for equivalent quality systems is not great & well worth paying for in terms of ease of use & reliability.

Macs make up about 10-15% of the PC population but on this forum my impression is that Mac usage is far higher which would be in line with the higher usage of Macs among video & graphics professionals. Reports on this forum of Windows users having problems even just playing the 5DII .MOV files are so frequent that they cannot be ignored. It is still true as far as I am aware that it is impossible to play back 5DII files without installing extra software & is not possible to edit the files reliably without purchasing the NeoScene CODEC. A Mac can play & edit the 5DII files out of the box with QuickTime & iMovie '09.

I also use Vegas and NeoScene, and it's problem free.

That's not to say that a Mac with FCP isn't a good solution too.

Chris has some good points but Nigel's argument that the PC can be troublesome in simply playing 5Dii files is compelling. I have run into these issues and they can be really annoying if I want to show some video I just shot on someone else' computer. Even quadcore windows machines don't play 5dii files without a few tweaks. That said, I'm not switching to Apple because their systems are certainly more expensive with equal hardware. There are often serious shortcuts taken with mac machines with a slow video card being the most common. Also, the abilty to upgrade a PC for about $600 with new mobo/memory/cpu blows Apple away. Finally, FCP is over double the cost of getting into Vegas with NeoScene. There are always affordable upgrade paths to get into Sony Vegas.

The advice that I have heard around here time and again is to "get what works best for you". If you find the PC to be annoying, get a Mac with FCP. If you work well with the PC and are turned off by Mac/FCP pricing, get a PC with Vegas/NeoScene.

Since you are planning to go with the Mac, make sure you get a quadcore processor. 5Dii files need the fastest CPU you can find.

Not quite true.

EXPENSIVE - I've priced out a comparable HP Z system to my MacPro system and the MacPro was less expensive, by a good margin.

PROPRIETARY - Mac's can run Windows via Bootcamp. Windows only machines (so far as I am aware of) cannot. However, the hardware modifications are almost limitless for a Windows only machine.

I have a MacPro running Mac OSX.5.7 and am also running Win7 64bit (via Bootcamp of course) and it runs great. I don't side with either Mac or Win...I just choose the tool(s) that best suits MY needs.

Thanks guys i'm getting educated! Those advice & infors best ever:)
Nigel it is indeed a good review iMovie 09 - good advice!
Marcus, appreciate what you think if the iMac i chose isit fast enought?

so good keep it coming...

The iMac has a core2duo processor which has two cores instead of the newer quadcore chips. That would make that brand new system half as fast as my PC that is almost two years old. It can technically work with HD video, but it will render somewhat slowly.

I was afraid of that - tell me marcus 'somewhat slowly' can be bare with?

so good keep it coming

Theoretically a quad-core system can be 2x faster than a dual-core but that is theoretical & depends on the applications having perfectly parallelism so that the work is spread over all four processors. In practice except for certain specific applications it will never be 2x as fast. My 8-core Mac pro is not 4x faster than my dual-core laptop. Many people do video editing on a MacBook Pro although personally I would find the screen small but enormous processing power is not necessary unless you are doing very complex work with multiple video streams & even then it is the likely the disk I/O that will be dragging the system down rather than the processor.

The Mac Pro is the only 4/8 core Mac system available & while it is a fantastic workstation class machine & a better & faster system than almost any other personal computer on the market it is a lot more expensive than an iMac.

The iMac will be fine for what you want to do.

The point of the NeoScene with Vegas (or other PC NLE) production process is that you don't have to have a high speed top end system. For many reasons, you don't want to edit in the capture file format. NeoScene converts your files to editable .avi files, adding near lossless renders over successive I believe FCP compressor does the same. Incidentally, NeoScene, is also available for Mac, as I understand it.

"The Mac Pro is the only 4/8 core Mac system available"

This is why Apple is more expensive than PC. There are lots of affordable quadcore PCs and the Mac STARTS at $2500.

A quadcore processor with Vegas is almost exactly twice as fast as a dual core.

I refuse to participate in a mac/pc war and it won't be allowed by the forum admins. That said, there are more powerful PCs available for less money than Apple machines but the real reason to buy one or the other is what you prefer to use.

I didn't realize that there were no low-end quadcore macs so that machine should be fine as it is the fastest non-workstation apple available (core2duo).

For the best bang for the buck, best of both worlds, and the ability to customize with the components of your choosing, build your own Hackintosh! Mine's an i7 920 overclocked to 4Ghz stable, 12GB RAM, GTX 285 - faster than the top-of-the-line Mac Pro for a fraction of the price. Now, I do own a shiny Apple-made Macbook Pro. No good ways around that if you want to run FCP.

InsanelyMac is the hub for all things Hackintosh. Also see Hackint0sh - Powered by vBulletin

I used the Gigabyte UD5 board which made it a cinch:
[GUIDE] Retail OS X Install (10.5.7) on Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD5 (Core i7) Mobo - InsanelyMac Forum

http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/r...screenWin7.jpg

http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/r...reenMacOSX.jpg

How much time did you spend researching & putting that together? I know it's certainly possible to put together very cheap systems, but I've never been able to come up with a combo with comparable or better performance than an apple system where the price was cheap enough to be a bargain once I factored my own time into the equation.

I'm not necessarily advocating building your own systems but I'll give some reasons in case they are helpful to people in this situation. I build my own system for the obvious reason that it saves money on components but that reason seems completely irrelevant when factoring in my time. There is one really good reason I go down this path and one unfortunate reality that this makes sense. The negative factor why building my own system makes sense is that I sometimes have too much free time. I would prefer to have more consistent work, but the reality is that I have downtime that I can use to build a computer. The positive reason for putting in all this time is that I know the system inside and out and can get my machine up and running very quickly and cheaply. The time I put in building when I have free time is saved during important times when the inevitable problems occur. Most of the time, I get through technology issues with little more than a hiccup in my work flow while other people can be out for days with something simple. I can reload my OS and software from a ghost image in minutes or replace a hard drive in a couple of hours including the trip to the store. Having such intimate knowledge with the machine I rely upon keeps it reliable.

That said, buy the mac unless you want to go through a huge learning curve with your computer build. It is probably easier to just focus on earning money so you can do like other people and simply buy a new machine when you have problems.

5 days (3 days research, 2-day build). Once you get it down, it's easy as pie. The OSX86 guys have really made it easy. I have since built 2 identical machines for friends and each build only took 4 hours.

Learn how to fish and you can fish the rest of your life. As Marcus pointed out, knowing your system inside out has its advantages. It will save you time and money in the long term. Power supply goes out? No problem. Bad memory? Easy fix.

Another big advantage to building your own is component selection and performance. Faster RAM, video cards, overclocking... You're not limited to what Apple dictates.

Back in the day, I had a Quad G5 (the last PowerPC Mac) and I waited months and months for Apple to release the promised aftermarket 7800GT, until I finally gave up and sold the machine. Not to mention the incompetence at AppleCare (they didn't realize there was a bad stick of memory initially which was causing constant kernel panics).

I prefer to take matters into my own hands.

In the end, it's up to the individual.

Peter, are you saying that you can't run FCP on your Hackintosh ? That would be my main reason to try to fire up one of these mod machines.

It runs FCP beautifully, that was my whole reason for building one! In fact, it runs faster than it does on my friend's tricked out 2009 8-core Mac Pro and cost 1/5.

Thanks, good to know. I'm due for a new desktop and have considered building something but not really interested in a time-sink project of uncertain outcome... a few days isn't bad though, although that potentially puts the total cost into the range of a couple mac pros. It seems like the real savings come from building multiple systems and there's certainly some appeal there for network rendering, etc. I'll definitely look into the OSX86 stuff.

Okay, I must have misunderstood your last post. See Peter, I have built maybe 10 PC over the years. In fact, the Dell I just bought last year (quad core) was really first on I have bought off shelf in about 15 years, so I know the build it yourself game pretty well. I hadn't kept up with technology improvements since I put together a dual core AMD rig about 4.5 years ago, so I bought the Dell knowing I would use NeoScene as an intermediate.

But you have given me the bug now, bt I still have the feeling I am not going to get anymore out of FCP than what I am doing with Vegas. I've always felt that with the origins of Final Cut and Premiere being the same, and with GUI very similar, that my experience with Premeire up to Pro 2, and comparing with Vegas, I felt I am okay with Vegas.

I have been involved in four 48 hour competitions now, and the Vegas edited projects (3) went smoother and quicker than the one Final Cut project I participated in. Perhaps it was editor problems, but I always felt that FC just was overloaded with overhead and ritual processes that slowed it up.

Peter - Thanks much for that info. / links; didn't even know that existed!! It looks like a very cool feature to have for a WIN only machine. Hope it is stable though; would hate for it to lock up / crash on a project one has going while running FCP!!

Chris - That is so true regarding...the Cineform stuff (w/Vegas or Premiere) in that it does not require a huge amount of horsepower to run smoothly. I've seen Prospect w/Premiere when they first came out with it...and it ran great on an older dual core machine!! Are you using Vegas 9?

I have both 8 and 9 on my system and I have upgraded to 9a. I have been editing everything on 9. I don't see any big difference in the two, but I stay with 9 becasue there are a few new toys on board that I might want to use. I only work in 32 bit, and I am fine with rendering processes, etc. I do note that occasionally when I use the Cineform Codec to render to a 1920 x 1080 output from my Canon 5D material, I get a message that says I am not registered to use the Codec for that level. I then try it again, and it renders. Not sure what that is about.

Windows IT Professional but Mac Lover
 

I just want to +1 to what Nigel has said about the Mac.
I too am a working IT professional, who works with Windows/Microsoft technology for a living...and while I know good and well a PC can do what the the OP is wanting; cheaper, I am of the opinion the Mac can do it easier, smoother, sexier, and actually (dont laugh) more fun. I guess if you compare Adobe products on PC vs. Mac they all do the same stuff, but software like iMovie and iDVD etc...just make more sense sometimes. Not knocking PC at all, they are great, but for where I'm going with movies and photos, I'm going Mac to do my work.

I just need to decide what I'm going to purchase a Mac Pro or MacBook Pro soon to start my venture into video editing...I just don't know which one yet. I hope to eventually own both, but can only afford to get one to start with...

I'm leaning towards the Mac Pro with a 30" ACD. Then if/when comes a time I need portability, the MBP will be purchased too.

Right now I'm worried because I have an older Dell Precision 650 workstation, with 2GB of RAM and Dual XEON CPUs, not sure I'll be able to do any of my 5DMKII video on it? I haven't tried yet, but I am expecting FAIL.

I have Adobe Master Suite for PC/Mac, so I can try to use it on this PC, but again, I just feel I'm going to have to get the new Mac sooner than later.

Wow...that's great to hear. I was viewing some not so good reviews about how doing everything in the 32bit mode was bogging down editing, rendering times. Maybe v.9 along with Cineform helped this?

Question regarding using your Vegas/Cineform combo; ... I read a few posts ago somewhere either on this forum or one of the others, that there was an issue of certain NLE's and/or apps not being able to keep the 0-255 range. Does that even matter for video and is it an issue with your setup? Just curious.

Actually was an issue, from what I understand of some editors interpreting the Quicktime settings, or something like that. I remember our original files were clipping on the high side, and to dark is shadows. Cineform's NeoScene's conversion corrects that in the rendered file, and since then, there may have been a correction in Quicktime too. I note that I did test a conversion from the camera's file testing Streamclip, and the resulting file appeared to have that issue still as compared to the Cineform file.

Agreed, yes sometimes...but not always.

Macbook Pro; the good thing about this is portability. Power (CPU and GPU wise) is decent, but the Windows only laptops have Quad-Core capability, a bit faster GPU and better LCD screens (i.e., Sony's top end Vaio screen displays the entire Adobe RGB colorspace as well as Dell's Precision M6400's).


Nice, but just FYI, the 30" ACD in not LED backlit. There are other 30" LCD's out there that do have LED backlighting...with the matte screen of course. You may want to check around before plunking down your hard earned cash for one of these. Maybe (2) 24"'s instead?

Never know until you try!! Happy shopping and research the heck out of everything so you'll feel good when you purchase whatever system you end up with.

So NeoScene corrects that issue...very nice to know. I realize you're a Vegas user, but have you any experience or heard that if this is an issue with PP, FCP or iMovie?

Andrew

I don't pretend to understand the technical issues, just know they did work to resolve. Here are some posts on it:


http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos...d-support.html

This post from David Newman came from that thread.:

Vegas Pro is the one exception as it wasn't having issues before. Vegas uses studio RGB which places black at 16,16,16 not 0,0,0, as a resulting all the YUV 0-255 data is presented in RGB. All other tools use compter graphics RGB (Premiere Pro and Elements, AE, VirtualDub, MediaPlayer etc.) which stretch the 16-235 YUV to 0-255 RGB, lossing highlight and shadow detail for the Canon (now fixed in NeoScene 1.1.2.)

Here are other threads about Cineform and 5D MKII

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos...i-editing.html


http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos...s-29-97-a.html

I'm no techy either!!

Thanks for the links Chris; much appreciate it.

Total newbie!: i've checkout ur hardwares thru the website and found a hands on tutorial Build Your Own Intel Core i7 Machine - A HardwareZone DIY Special :: Articles :: www.hardwarezone.com and yes peter ur right in everything! now is the software 'hackintosh' - peter could u guide me on the soft etc.. (i've the adobe CS4 web premium)..emmh steps by steps:)

Knowing that my hobby with photography & videography will be going on a higher step is logical - getting the iMac & iMovie i probably will be upgrading...say in 6 mths time. so working out on a budget & productive hardware is the way to go...(that is after peter chang post on his PC rig!)

Its happening!