30.0 vs 29.97.
 

In the last version of CineForm NeoScene (v1.1.2) we converted Canon 5D footage as 29.97, as that is what our AVCHD reported it as. Since then Canon has confirmed the camera is 30.0 fps, yet that is the wrong frame rate for all your post tools. This meant in the older version there is a video and audio sync mismatch for longer sequences. So I have just uploaded a NeoScene Beta of v1.1.3 that correctly resamples both audio and video to 29.97. At a true 29.97 (rather than 30.0) you will have no frame blending, frame dropping, or sync issues when mixing with other camera sources or master to 29.97fps formats like DVD and BluRay.

Most info on the beta here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/cineform-...e-1-1-3-a.html

Hey David, just for clarification...when you say it "resamples," do you mean that it simply changes the timebase in the file from 30.00 to 29.97 (in other words, a 1/1001th slowdown) without otherwise touching the frames?

For video yes, the frames are not touched (other than conversion to a CineForm wavelet), but the audio we do resample and pitch correct filter. 30 to 29.97 is a 0.1% slow down, while not human perceptable, it is necessary to resample the audio to match the new video rate. The audio resampling engine is been in NEO HD and above for a long time, we just activated it for NeoScene.

You guys at Cineform continue to impress me with how quickly you are on top of these things. Cheers!

Thanks Dylan.

To All, any feedback on the changes would be great, as this is a quick public beta, hope for a full release of this version if all is good.

Hi David! Finally I found right thread to ask my question.

I transcode original 5D MOVs to Neoscene and edit in CS4. The problem is that the preview as well as the rendered footage drops frames every 10-20 seconds. I've checked original MOVs and transcoded AVIs - they're playing smoothly. But rendered footage from CS4 is always strobing for couple of seconds.

After few experiments with timeline and export settings I figured out what was the source of the problem for me. Cineform files are 29,97 fps and I used this frame rate in timeline and export settings. And this is the reason I had dropped frames during editing and in the final renders. After I created 30fps timeline and exported at 30fps, final render became smooth as the original footage.

This issue is also true for the latest verison 1.34 build119.

Could you please explain what's wrong with my setup? Thanks.

There is a chance you are running an older importer. In the Adobe folder all of CFHD_*.prm and delete them and reinstall Neo Scene v1.3.4. Neo Scene converted 5D footage should be edited a 29.97, if you found a clip that doesn't, please place it in our ftp dropbox ftp://ftp.cineform.com/pub/incoming and tell he name of the file you up loaded.

David, thanks for your time.

I removed CFHD_*.prm files and reinstalled Neoscene, but unfortunately this didn't fix the problem.

I couldn't use the ftp link you provided, so I uploaded the files to my website instead. Here's the link: http://cinemaproject.ru/cineform/ibabko.zip (257mb). The archive contains the following:

1. original.mov - straight out of the camera footage. Smooth.
2. neoscene.avi - same footage transcoded to Neoscene. Also smooth.
3. render_timeline30_export30.mp4 - both files put to 30p timeline and exported as 30p. Both are smooth.
4. render_timeline30_export2997.mp4 - both files put to 30p timeline and exported as 29,97. Both are smooth.
5. render_timeline2997_export2997.mp4 - both files put to 29,97 timeline and exported as 29,97. Neoscene is strobing, original is smooth
6. render_timeline2997_export30.mp4 - both files put to 29,97 timeline and exported as 30p. Neoscene is strobing, original is smooth

As you can see I get neoscene video strobing when I use 29,97fps timeline.

Your server is not working, reporting days to transfer.
USe ftp://ftp.cineform.com/pub/incoming via an standard windfow file explorer window, drag you files into that window, no ftp client required.

David, would this help with the audio mismatches I have experienced with NeoScene with footage transcoded to 24P from the HV20?

I have found that after I convert 24P HV20 material to Cineform avi in NeoScene, that my audio, which I record separately to a Fostex FR2, does not match up to the audio in the Cineform avi files. It takes a long time for it to get out of sync - these are live recordings of theatrical events, so it seems in sync for 20 minutes or so, but after an hour, the audio is off by several seconds or more.

Oh, and before anyone asks, the audio is a perfect match with the original captures from the HV20.

Have you seen this issue? And will this Beta take care of it?

Mark, We are no longer in beta, so use the new stuff and report back, I have not heard of this issue. Certainly not related to this thread and for HV20 we don't need to do any frame tweaks as it produces a correct 23.976p after pulldown removal. Make sure you have "Split file on scene changes" as that helps prevent glitches at scene changes, potentially throwing sync things off.

What about 25p?
 

Resampling the audio from 30p to 29.97 sounds great, but Down Under we use PAL - does Cineform also offer resampling so as to maintain sync for 25p?

30 to 29.97 and or 25 to 24 are easy, as change the presentation rate is the norm, not frame interpolation required. Neo HD does off 29.97 to 25 with slow down, but not missing frame interpolation -- you need AE Timewarp to plugins like twixtor for that.

If there is any open source pixel interlation tool that supports 30 to 25, let me know, we will see if we can add that function.

Well...
 

Lol, i have a call in to tech support right now regarding the 30.00fps/29.97 issue so I guess you already fixed it....

Since your lurkiing here, maybe you can answer my second question/
What is the option in the remaster settings does that says "limit YUV for canon 5d"?

Ive found no reference to it in the documentation.

Using NeoHD for the mac and trying to figure out what that setting does and how it related to the video processing setting in FCP that is recommended in the NeoHD readme (render all YUV material in high precision YUV)

David, please see ibabko.zip.

David,

I have a simple feature request - make the conversion to 29.97 and audio resampling optional.

On my audio reviews, I've been using an older version of NeoScene without the resampling, since I want unprocessed audio. Unfortunately, I need to manually change the speed of each clip back to 30p to stay in sync.

For people who want to convert to 24 or 25p, it would be great if they could choose not to bother with the conversion.

I've made the same request to support. I also complained that their user interface lied when you check "use input format".

Geoff,

This thread is discussing PC issues, the Mac has it own set. The luma levels are manually controlled on the Mac (auto on the PC.) With "limit YUV for canon 5d" enabled we fix some of the out of range issue and normalize the 5D to 16-235 luma, not 0 to 255 which many applications truncate. On the Mac I think the decoder output 30p not 29.97, but I'm not a Mac guy so I could be wrong.

Jon,

We have that feature, but it is Neo HD and above. Neo Scene is designed for consumer markets (and sells in high volumes,) many find Neo Scene has too many controls as it is -- e.g. explaining pulldown is tricky for the wide market -- so we gave up and with "Convert to 24/25p", that language has to own problems. Neo Scene has the minimal feature set to satisfy 95% of the need of the low end market -- dead simple to use with few options. Have a look at Neo HD, and there is huge difference to what that package includes.

Mark,

Actually the Main Concepts AVCHD decoder which Neo uses, inteprets the Canon as 29.97, we just fix the audio to match. Like Jon you may benefit from the extra features on Neo HD.

David, any luck with my files?

I'm not having the same issue. I single-stepped the neoscene.avi files, and there are no duplicate frames. I exported that timeline and still all was fine. I can see that you are get duplicates in you exports, but I can't reproduce them here. You install is still behaving like older software, yet you tried removing the importers. Do you see the duplicate frames when stepping neoscene.avi, or only upon your exports?

Nice footage BTW, both subject and location.

David, I'm sorry, I don't understand what 'stepping' means. But! Good news, everyone (c). Today I decided to reinstall Windows XP. I didn't install anything except for Premiere and Neoscene. Now everything plays smoothly. Should've done that in the first place, I guess :) The best solution to a lot of problems.

Thanks. It is shot at Amber Lake in Russia, near Finland. We had corporate party there and I took my new 5D with me. Subject is my colleague's wife :)

David, do you happen to know if Photoshop Extended is capable of editing Neoscene files? When I try to open them in Photoshop, I get white canvas.

Actually, the best solution I found was to buy a mac and use OSX. Everyone of my problems dissapeared. And for the record, I own a consutling company that specializes in pc's and wan/lan's. PC's seem to be great for 2 things, playing games and being servers. Everything else seems to be a ordeal to deal with. My productivity went up 300% when I switched to mac. Things are so simple they sometimes elude me due to my PC background. I'm happy you got it working, but people shouldnt have to reinstall a O/S to fix their problems.

Check out the photoshop support forums. They should be able to answer your question regarding photoshop extended. I would assume the answer would be yes, but i cant say that 100% for sure.

Geoff, I concur with you 100%. I spent 25 years with major computer manufacturers & have configured, supported, installed & worked with Windows since V1. Windows has grown into a horrible complex monster that cannot be fixed. It's been a breath of fresh air to move to Macs & mostly they live up to the simple refrain that 'they just work'. To satisfy my inner-geek Mac OS X is built on a robust UNIX with Mach microkernel & can be treated as proper grown-up UNIX if required although Apple have done such a stellar job on the UI & all other stuff above the base OS that for most users there is no need. The initially higher purchase price is repaid many times over in increased productivity & lack of frustration & downtime.

Thank you guys. I've been thinking about switching to Mac all the time now. Unfortunately Mac's cost twice as much here, so the only real way to purchase one would be to ask someone going on a trip to US to buy it for me. Anyway I don't have money even for that right now since I've spent all of them on the gear.

I tried hackintosh and it worked ok, but not as a real Mac of course. And yes, it is shocking sometimes for a person who's been working with Windows since 3.11 how intuitive and stable things can be.

But I have to stay in a PC world for now and live with common Windows workarounds like reinstalling it if something goes wrong :)