Best workflow
 

Hi! I'm looking for the best workflow for PC! Can only find mac flows out there..
I'm using streamclip to convert the clips ready for Adobe premiere cs4.. But are not shure the codec is right ?
Is this a good way to start ? :
1: Mpeg streamclip-> export to quickTime-> and then... which compression is best ? H.264?

And when saving from premiere, what is best ?

Here's my recommended workflow (works for me at least)

1. Download your footage to your computer (as obvious as this sounds, I've seen people working from their CF cards). I like using Canon's utilities for this.

2. Transcode your footage. I normally use Cineform, but if you're on a budget, MPEGstreamclip + AvidDNXhd codec will work too (with less colorspace though)

3. If you're using Cineform, you can do a first color correction pass on First Light (this is especially usefull if you shot with contrast and saturation down on your camera)

4. Import clips into your NLE (I use Premiere CS4). Select the appropriate format (eg: 1080 24p) depending on how you intend to output.

5. Conform clips that aren't in your selected project format (eg: shots at 720 60p that you want to use for slomo)

6. Edit

7. Final color correction and effects.

8. Render to an output codec: h.264 is great if you have a powerful computer, otherwise HD Mpeg2 works better if you don't mind having a bigger sized file.

9. Have a cup of coffee while you wait for the render. :)

An important note: If you use MPEG2 when you transcode, your output to MPEG2 will be rendered faster. If I'm not wrong Avid's codec (which is free) uses mpeg2.

Hope this helps!

Mauricio

Works like a dream : )
Thank you, Mauricio!

So do you think it's OK to use HD Mpeg-2 as a proxy?

Yes. I use mpeg2 for everything after capturing (which is done in h.264). Many people think mp2 is an old and outdated codec, but Sony uses it in its HDCAM format which is becoming an industry standard for HD footage exchange.

Cineform uses it as well. They claim that there is no visual loss in the compression, and so far I haven't noticed any.

I wouldn't be able to tell with Avid's codec as I haven't worked with it extensively but I'm guessing that Avid wouldn't release a codec under their brand if it wasn't a quality one.

For final output version of a project, I use standard High Def MPG2, which by the way is considered as one of the official codecs for Bluray

Cineform uses wavelets, rather than MPEG-2.

I thought I had read somewhere in Cineform's website that they were using some sort of mpeg, but then again, I've been using it -Aspect HD- since the first HDV camera came out (JVC GR-HD1U) so most surely the technology has evolved.

My point still remains regarding the workflow: Capture h.264 (no options here with the 7D) -> transcode (cineform works for me)-> do your art -> encode to mpeg2HD which is a standard embraced by many companies including the Blu Ray Association.

I've never had a problem opening these files on relatively modern computers, even without special codecs (clients usually have out of the box WMP and/or QT installations).

HDCAM-EX is Mpeg2 though and can be edited without a glitch on CS4 (again, on a relatively modern computer).

Cineform is using Wavelet compression.
Avid DNxHD is using DCT (Discrete Cosine Transform) same as ProRes and CanopusHQ
XDCam-EX/XDCam-HD are both Mpeg2 variants


I agree with your basic workflow except for the final encode to Mpeg2 HD. I can't think of a single scenario where that would be the ideal finishing format. Mpeg2 SD if going to DVD yes. But HD? No.

I guess it all depends on who your final audience is. For DVD of course, MPEG2 is the standard way of doing it.

Regarding HD, in my experience, not all customers' computers are able to handle 1080p h.264, so I usually offer them two versions, HD Mpeg2 being the other one. I'm usually told that they use the mpeg2 version for whatever purposes they have for their projects, and store the h.264 away.

What is your preferred output codec?

Mauricio

This workflow is perfect. No problems, no visible data loss and no delay when editing.

In the free Streamclip:
-Export to quicktime
- In compression,- use H.264 (I know this is not for editing, BUT it works MUCH better than DNxHD) For me and my computer, that is. And the DNxHD compression lose much data.
- Add in premiere.

Then you are doing something VERY wrong. However DNxHD is slow in Premiere as is any .MOV. There are better options. Something in a .AVI container is preferred. H.264 is a horrible solution particularly sice the 7D is shooting that NATIVELY...

Yes, H.264 is problary not the best, but in this case,- it work better for me. Almost no delay in clips when I edit.


http://i47.tinypic.com/i6jg9z.jpg

Large:
http://i46.tinypic.com/1e5gsl.jpg

And here is Perrone Fords solution with the DNxHD file :

" File, Export to Quicktime

Choose Avid DNxHD.

Click Options button

Color levels RGB

Click the tiny sliver of a box at the bottom of the window (this is a bug). It will allow you to select the bit rate for DNxHD. Select 1080/24p DNxHD 175 10-bit. Or select 1080/24p 115 8-bit. Experiment with both.

Hover over the Uncompressed selection and the OK button will appear. This is another bug. Click OK.

Set quality to 100%

Uncheck Interlaced Scaling

Select 1920x1080 unscaled

Click "Make Movie"
"
http://i50.tinypic.com/vomn7s.jpg

Why are you transcoding to H264??????

It's already H264!

As for your split screen, you are just seeing a gamma shift, that's all.

Theres some strange ways of working in this thread.

I would download from card and convert to an intermediate codec...like cineform with premiere because its easier to edit with and much more robust to grading etc.


The other codecs here are either meant for final delivery or capture and are what I would call "skinny" in that they will be great until you edit with them, then they will fall apart cos they were designed to fit in as small a file as possible whereas cineform(or similar) are bigger files but 10bit and 422 allowing grading etc with little degradation.

I do a proxy cut with Sony Vegas using XDCAM EX as an intermediate. Because XDCAM EX plays back and edits smoothly on my $300 netbook!

Jad, you have a Tokina? I am envious of you (in a nice way :) I've been on the waitlist for 2 months at B&H.

Mauricio, I got lucky and found one in person. It's well worth the wait!

Hey guys
I just got my 7D and using EDIUS 5 on my 2 year old over clocked quad 3.2ghz PC ruining XP I can drop the raw 25p clips straight to the timeline and they play back realtime.:-)

Great for basic cuts but it runs about a frame or two slower once I add a title.

I tried both workflows, image looks the same, though I'd expect the Avid to hold up better in the NLE.

Well, I know this is a weird workflow.. But its works fine for me! No mincing(stuttering) when editing, and good colors. Isn't that what most uf us seek ?

Hey Morten,
I was a DNxHD user, but the side by side you showed has really got me thinking. I tried writing to this for one of my files, and it played back pretty good in Vegas Pro. I am planning to use this for the rest of my files, but my question is; how does it hold up in editing when you have several clips at this codec? Does it work at a similar speed as just 1 file, or does it start to slow or stutter once there are a lot of files on the timeline? Thanks for the help!

Zach

Thanks for beliving in my theories, hehe.
Im doing this edit right as we speak with 45 clips in H.264. I have not experienced any form of stuttering or slow speed when edit.
You can also save the files as 50% without any BIG lossless data. I tried convert the same file twice, but used 50% quality for last one,- I could not see the big difference. Files will go from 40MB to 10MG or less. That also helps when editing.. But of course, everyone wants the best quality possible, so it's up to you and your PC :)

Good to know. I'll probably keep the files at full size since I'm editing a short for film festivals, so quality is the most important. This is just screwing with my mind that I'm writing the file to the same format it's shot natively, the files lose no visible quality, and are about the same size as the RAW files, but for some reason the new ones edit quite smoothly. One of those things you gotta see to believe! Thanks again!

I'm sorry, maybe this is a dumb question, but how do I get the avid codec?because I spent the better part of today using any and every codec mpegstreamclip offers, and none work on premiere.
I sometimes use canopus edius, and that at least seems to better accept different formats, but I'm not sure how theoutput works. Anybody use it?
Oh and also, what's the best put out format for HD? I have a job that will end up on a projector, and I don't want to screw it up... maybe two or three options I can give?

Thank you Perrone, shortly after I posted I realized that by googling I could probably get it.
So I did and installed it etc. Then I tried a conversion, first in avi, which didn't work, and then in mov, which played fine on quicktime and on the preview on premiere, but on the main timeline came out like colored dots, like that interference (don't know the name in english)...
Why oh why?

Can you post a picture or screen shot?

Here it is.
It's CS3 though, I'm installing CS4 later this afternoon...
Any thoughts on why?
Oh, and I did try to render the work area, but of course wouldn't and it would tell me unknown error.
If somebody has any ideas on how to proceed for the final output on Canopus, that is fine for me, it seems like Edius is less "picky" than Premiere on which formats it accepts.

http://i45.tinypic.com/1zxff6.jpg

Yes, I've seen this before.

Can you do a screenshot of SPECIFICALLY what settings you used to encode the .MOV file? A screenshot of that would be terrific and very helpful.

http://i46.tinypic.com/11gp06p.jpg

Here you go...let me know your thoughts... meanwhile I'm installing CS4 and hoping for better luck with that...

See that box on the upper right? The one that has 709/RGB? Right at the bottom of that box (you can barely see it) that has a pull down menu. Can you tell me what you selected from there? If anything?

If you did not select anything, choose the format most like what you need, but do NOT do any of the codecs that say 10bit or have an "x" after their name. Render that out and see if it acts properly in the timeline. I am thinking you have a 10bit codec on the timeline, and the preview window can only show 8 bit. When I've seen this before, that was the case.

Brief update, CS4 has accepted the videos, I haven't finished rendering them so I'm not positive they will work until the end, but big step forward

Excellent! You just needed some more modern tools! :)

Spoke waaay too soon. So it plays nicely etc etc, but if I render the video, which is kinda vital for it to be fluid, it becomes this blurry out of proportion thing I can only see a corner of in the viewer surrounded by black.
Now I'm trying, just for kicks to do a conversion in 8bit, as you suggested might have been the problem before, and see how that works... I'm starting to get a bit desperate, I have a job in a few days and I cannot not be able to edit...
Maybe it's the codec it uses for rendering that does that?
And no, 8 bit conversion didn't change the problem...

That's what I thought! going from h.264 to h.264 seems odd.

I use Neoscene and like the way the footage looks with their codec, the 4.2.2 does add a nice look. I'm mainly producing stock footage, so I render Quicktime photojpeg and yes get big file sizes, but that's the required format.

I am in the same situation here as the original poster.

I am using Adobe Elements 7 on PC. Works wonderfully. Also have NeoScene Cineform.

The footage was shot on a Sony HDV camera and downloaded into Apple FCP in their own codec, in quicktime. It doesn't work for me, as when I try to open those files in Elements or Quicktime on my PC, it either just gives sound and no video OR (Elements) says it can't find the codec.

So the shooter is trying to figure out the best way to transcode the HDV footage to give to me in a way that preserves quality when I input into Elements.

We're trying H.264 (1080i ??) right now, but as that is a delivery format, when I try to color correct or crop or composite a logo on the footage, will it hold up? Will the footage be as sharp as on the Apple?

Note: I've also tried to convert the FCP HDV footage (in MOV/Quicktime) with Cineform Neoscene to it's own intermediary but Neoscene also wouldn't take it.

I did consider that maybe if I bought Quicktime Pro 7.6 just to do this it may work? Or is there another suggested way for me to get my footage into my PC?

Thankx

First, I believe that FCP uses a proprietary HDV format/codec when capturing, which prevents users from using that footage on a PC, as Apple has not released the codec for the PC platform. Thus any HDV captured on a Mac won't work on a PC.

This leads me to the answer to your question. You will have to use a Mac to encode that footage to another format. There are so many possibilities it's nearly pointless to suggest any one for you, since it's so dependent on what exactly you need to use it for and what you expect out of it.

If you want the best possible quality (visually lossless) DNxHD is a good choice, although that requires installing DNxHD on any system you want to use to edit. If you aren't concerned with maintaining the absolute best quality you can encode to a high-bitrate
MPEG-2 (making sure to use 4:2:2 color space) which will look almost as good without requiring any special codecs. You could encode to DVCPro HD as well, although I don't like that format since it's not really HD. Then again, you say you started with HDV, so it might be just fine. You even could go to XDCAM HD.

Yes, you are right about Apples proprietary HDV code.

I know Elements can take MPEG-2. Kinda nervous about getting it in H.264 as that's the more compressed MPEG-4, but we'll see for sure after I put it in my system how it looks.

Don't know what DNxHD is, it isn't mentioned in the Elements literature...is this a plugin/codec? Free/paid?

It's a free discrete frame codec from Avid that works in a lot platforms.

Hi guys, I seem to be having the same problem as Anna RE the 'snowy' playback on the timeline.#

I've tried all variations in the settings (rgb, the other one, 10 bit, all 3 8 bit options, but in the CS3 timeline, the footage is as above , \'snowy\'

Whats odd, is that when I preview the footgage in the top right window, its plays fine?


Any thoughts?

I\'m desperate to find the best FREE method of mixing my 7d footage with good old easy to edit HDV footage.

I\'ve got the trial of neoscene, and the avi that I get from that, still isn\'t the easiest to edit with, I can just about scrub through it, but on the timeline its plays back pretty stuttery.