Re: C300 Discussion
 

Indeed, I was just going for the most basic Scarlet get you going rig. In practise you need more to keep you going for a working day.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Could you buy the brain and use an atomos with it?

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Not really, you need batteries, a LCD and other accessories. How good the live de-bayering on the camera through the HD SDI actually is another issue, when filming you tend to use that more as a video assist rather than for providing the master. Although people can do this, but it's not really getting the best out of the camera.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Although I'm not delighted with the pricing at this point, my interest is being able to create beautiful images on medium sized Hi-end projection screens and computer screens that can be efficiently handled in post with a reasonably powerful computer. The 5D/7D were a great move forward, but even at streaming qualities they were significantly less appealing than the Alexa and Red on the 2011 Shootout. Some of us would like the ability to broadcast and create superb aesthetics with video camera controls and pro audio to display on less-than-large-cinema screens on a the display formats mentioned without having to own an exotic editing station.

I wonder what portion of DVinfo.net produce work for audiences on a Hi Quality projectsions larger than 12'?


Chris,

That might be an interesting statistic to gather, What % of the forum's participants are produced to display on Large Cinema Screens, Med HD Screens (Hi End Corp/Worship), Std Corporate Screens (i.e. w/ PowerPoint next in line...), Computer Screens?

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Well the Atomos has a screen you can use for framing and also you would plug in your own monitor I imagine it uses a 12 volt battery. Couldn't you buy one off the shelf?

With Modular cameras like this you buy so many peripherals why not go the whole hog.

Of course if the HDSI out isn't up to it then that's an end to it.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

I think Canon was right not to spend a lot of money/size/weight/complexity in making the C300 ideal for handheld. It's a CMOS camera with rolling shutter. Even with the 5D2 for corporate demos at work, we went with a track and jib as well as a tripod & slider here at work. (A Steadicam is more flexible, but costs more, and requires more skill.)

On the Bourne movies, they went handheld for a purposefully shaky look, but they didn't do it with CMOS.

Unless this sensor is exceptionally fast, the C300 is not the best choice for handheld, regardless of ergonomics.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Jon, I certainly hope it is a lot better than the 5D mk2 (and by all accounts it is). Most high end video CMOS chips are fine for normal handheld work. It's more strobes, whip pans and serious vibration that can cause artifacts.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

I wouldn't try doing this until the camera is out and judgements can be made on the quality of the outputs. On RED cameras you use the LCD for accessing menus and other functions, so I suspect using the Atomos screen from the HD SIDI mightn't be the most practical method of working. You'd need more than one battery, the RED cameras are pretty power hungry and they're not cheap.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

So if I decided to go Red I'd probably be best to go for the production pack Is that the one you're going for Brian.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

I'm not buying, I'll rent or the production company will rent. I might have considered buying the 2/3" Scarlet for documentaries.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

A few thoughts after digesting what everyone is posting......
1) Again, I find it a bit fascinating that posters can be so sure, based on the specs, of how bad the picture is with the 8 bits....you can only truly comment on the full potential of the picture if you saw it on the 4K projector at Paramount.....and the fact that ALL of the DPs categorically stated that 8 bit was a non-issue.
2) How can anyone be so sure on the camera's physical layout (monitor location & adjust-ability , VF, etc) and complain about it if you haven't had it in your hands? I think if you did, you would understand it better.
3) as for saying the DPs were on Canon's payroll so they will say only good things is completely wrong. Their reputation is way more important then the very minor amount of money Canon could have paid them. Does one really think that in a forum like Thursday night in front of their peers, they would tow the company line in trade for their reputation?
I know I'm sounding a bit preachy here but all these thoughts and statements do not match up with what I experienced during my 3 days with this camera and being around people who worked with it. Between now and the end of January, Canon is going to be getting these cameras out to the selected dealers for people to touch & feel...I suspect they will also try to arrange screenings of the films for people to judge for themselves.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: C300 Discussion
 

When asked during the panel discussion on Thursday night, ALL of the DPs said there was absolutely no rolling shutter.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: C300 Discussion
 

I'm looking forward to finding out the rolling shutter times of this camera as well as the 1D X, the mystery Cinema DSLR, and the next gen 5D, 7D, etc.

BTW, one can test it very accurately with a fast strobe. Shoot video. Trigger a photo flash unit. Find a frame where the flash falls within a frame and another place where you see the start of the strobe on one frame and the end of the strobe on the next. As long as you know the frame rate, you can then calculate the true rolling shutter time, based on line counts.

On the 5D2, it's 25ms, which is 75% of a 30fps frame or 60% of a 24fps frame.

And, yes, the new cam is no doubt faster. The existing 1D4 looks like it has something like 50 or 60% of the rolling shutter time of the 5D2, based on the Zacuto Shootout, Part 3. (I wish that they had strobe tested the cameras to provide the hard numbers.) The 1D X and C300 are almost certain to be faster still.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Because where the VF is, it requires the entire camera and lens combo to be in front of you which leads to an unwieldy shoulder mount configuration. I have used many other cameras with this configuration and unless the laws of physics have changed, it isn't optimal above a certain weight. A weight this camera will easily exceed in most professional environments.

I suppose if you come to it from only shooting with DSLRs (which many shooters now do) this isn't such a compromise. However, I think that the higher end camera people that this camera is supposedly aimed at will want a traditional shoulder mount configuration as an option. This can be created using third party accessories but IMO a camera at this level should integrate this into the design. This could have been done without detracting from any of the benefits of the current design.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

these days, every camera is front heavy...and everyone is using some type of shoulder rig. DSLRs, the Epic, AF100, FS100, Alexa, etc, all are not good as a stand alone shoulder mount thus, we are selling a lot of shoulder mounts.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: C300 Discussion
 

The Alexa sits very well on the shoulder and is very well regarded for its ergonomics. It is a great example of how Arri understands movie camera design. I haven't used the Epic but the others listed are more good examples or poor ergonomic designs for movie cameras and as you say require add ons in order to work ergonomically.

The other manufacturer who seems to "get" ergonomics is JVC but they seem to have fallen behind a little in other areas.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

1) Jim Nothing wrong with 8 bits as an end result at all. The reason you would want at least 10 bits is for grading in post. YES you can grade in camera on the shoot but then that's the look you will be stuck with. Watching the films I thought many times that the quality was outstanding but here and there would in the quiet time of post done more work. More obvious examples were night skies being to blue when filming in really low light situations.

The 10 bit issue won't go away unfortunatley.

I also noticed that Creative video is advertising the camera with 10 bit out I did tell them and the salesman looked at the page and said he would do something. Needless to say its still there along with a new ad for the PL mount also claiming it to be 10 bit out.

2) If the camera is $20,000 it's expected to have a design suitable for the purpose it's intended. In this case cinematic films. DSLR cameras are mean't to be still cameras and not diesigned for film making use. But a new market of frames for these cameras like zacuto which greatly adds to the expense. The modular idea from Red is not everyone's ideal. Some may want a small camera to get into places or to be discreet etc. But not too small the lens unbalances it and makes it heavy one end and also to have all the bits in the right place with large enough controls to fall neatly to hand without fiddling and the right tools on the outside and not buried in menu's Personally I hate handheld shots and would keep my camera on a tripod rail or stedicam.I think for most wanting to make films they want a camera that has clear usable colour coded buttons with a decent enough size to give easy access to all it's workings and a sensible weight to balance etc and also I think to handhold and make smoother shots with a heavier weight. Something that is solidly constructed and not going to break if it hits the floor. Not to heavy though for hard to get to shots

3) I don't think any of the film makers that made these superb shorts for canon would say something they didn't truly believe. Has anyone here actually said that they did? I think sometimes though listening to the film makers and the making of films you have to listen to what people don't say as well.

4) Will people use this camera as a serious film making tool? I can only answer for myself and although I love the picture I can't afford it first of all but if I could and I really love the picture I would go for the F3 with S log only because it has 10 bit out.

I think the first thing Canon should consider is if the price is going to drop is to do it now Because those who have been deterred by price will make their decision now and see no point waiting for a possible drop and sales will be lost in my opinion.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Good on you, Mark -- that definitely needs to be fixed!

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Sorry I missed you at the event too, Chris. Although I did spy Jim Martin bogarting all the C300 posters ;)

I like the shoulder mount form factor too, but I can see why the C300 was designed the way it was. Apparently they only needed a certain amount of electronics to run it, so that's all the space they needed to package it. To get to a shoulder mount form factor, the camera has to be longer. Even if they made the camera lower and more squat, it probably would not have contributed much to the length.

Maybe one day they'll design an optical viewfinder/rotating mirror assembly and that will justify making the camera longer and more slender like an Aaton Penelope-D. That would be sweet!

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooh..... How did I not get that? Huh. Ok, I stand corrected (and thankfully, thats cooler than I thought!)

Re: C300 Discussion
 

DP's have little to no involvement with post production and grading; so, to them, 8 vs 10 bits makes little difference.

Even for smaller projects, there are a large number of people requesting 10bit acquisition. Just ask the Convergent Design guys who have seen countless requests for a 10bit nanoFlash. On the topic of 8 vs 10 bit, the best people to ask are colorists. As someone who has been learning Resolve, color science and vfx in addition to other topics, I totally see the value for 10bit acquisition. There is a reason why 10bit DPX, 16bit TIFF and 32bit OpenEXR files are heavily used in features and commercials which use good amounts of vfx, 3D modelling and heavy grading. And there is a reason why Red, several Sony Cinealta cameras and the Alexa all have the ability to record at 12bits (and even 16bits for the F65).

With that said, most network shows don't require heavy grading or extensive vfx. As far as I can tell, this camera isn't designed to compete against Red, Sony's F35, SRW9000, F65 or Alexa for high-end cinema. Also, all high-end grading apps work in 32bpc and many vfx & NLE programs have the ability to work in 32bpc, which works wonders with 8 bit images. I took an 8bit JPEG into Photoshop, edited in 32bpc and created a set extension including making the sky larger (which was an orange gradient). Then, I brought into AE, edited in 32bpc and rendered as an 8bit H264 for the web (so, heavily compressed), and I had zero problems with banding. 8bits is not 'bad'.

However, for the C300, 12 stops in Canon Log is really pushing what 8bits can handle. Being able to record the 12 stop Log image in 10bits would make it much easier for post processing. Are there workarounds? Yes, but not many people can afford or have the ability to manipulate an image like professional colorists. However, most people don't need to manipulate an image like colorists do.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

It should also be pointed out that many DPs are used to shooting 8bit, they've been doing it for years on HDCAM. They also often have a DIT who is used to getting the best out the cameras.

I gather there weren't any real problems with the green screen work on one of the films. So, it may be the case of waiting to see what the cameras are capable of in practise.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

I wonder why Canon excluded a 10 bit output, it is present on many far cheaper cameras suggesting it isn't expensive to implement. Image quality aside, 8 bit is a bad marketing move. It either hints at protecting a future higher model or simple bad homework.

Just for the record I really like Canon and own four of their cameras, they just appear to have dropped the ball with the C300 IMO.

I also really like the 50Mbps codec but I'm surprised at the limitations that they think are acceptable at this price. My guess is that the output specs were fixed prior to the announcement of the F3.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Indeed, there could be a 4k version, using the same sensor possibly coming out. Canon may not have taken on board the availably of the 10 bit 3rd party external recorders in the same way as Sony did with the F3 and who also had the s-log as part of their game plan.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Like using the HDSDI 10 bit out on HDcam or using HDcam SR.
Does anyone proffessionaly shoot feature films or higher end stuff in 8 bits these days?

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Are people forgetting that this can be 8bit log? This is more like a 10bit signal in terms of range from shadows to highlights. From what i have read the image is nicely dithered with a touch of noise which would reduce banding.

Plenty of folk work in 8bits.

cheers
paul

Re: C300 Discussion
 

I was on set in Hollywood last week watching a shoot for an upcoming series on Comedy Central.
Full crew, the works, dolly etc., standard two-camera set-up using Sony F3's. I asked, are these
dual-link out? The answer was no. They were using the S-Log upgrade though.

8-bit vs. 10-bit seems to be the trendy argument du jour but the reality is that 8-bit simply
is not a limitation, depending on the type of work you're doing. There's a lot of television that
won't be heavily graded.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

I'm not saying many feature films do still use 8 bit, but many DPs have experience using it and are aware of any limitations. However, some TV dramas are shot on 8 bit DSLRs and these are also being used on feature films as B cameras. These have far more limitations than the C300.

Any HDCAM being shot is more for broadcast TV than theatrical these days and they're also using 8 bit in the pretty common XDCAM HD, its replacement. As a format it was used for other work than shooting feature films. This gear tends to be used long after the latest toys come out, so once established in use by a broadcaster, they tend stay in use.

If the cost difference on a low budget feature means shooting on 8 bit and affording a better actor, you go for that rather than 10 bit. You have to workout your priorities for a film.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Exactly, and well said.

It may be time to bring this up again - the EBU codec trials. (XDCAM422 being one of them.) - http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/general-...dec-tests.html

and in particular, the EBUs current advice:
That's the EBU talking about mainstream, broadcast programming from some of the worlds biggest broadcasters. That's not saying there's never any point in a 10 bit system - it depends on the work you're doing (as Chris says) - what it does mean is that far too much emphasis is being put on 8 bit v 10 bit by a lot of people.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Exactly my point -- thank you, David!

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Drama Shows of all kinds will need grading.

8 bit v 10 bit is a a reality and a choice made by professionals ALL the time and they make that choice because grading in 10 bit is far superior to grading in 8 bit. But why would that even be an issue? Surely we can all accept 10 bit grading is preferable to 8 bit grading every single time.

So now that's put to bed....

Would the sort of shows that don't need much grading choose a camera that can grade in camera to give a film look when they dont need a film look or would they be happy to use Xdcam with S log and have minor grading done in post to be safe as you pointed out with comdey central. The sony F3 has the plus that it's a camera that can do 10 bit out if needed and it's cheaper. So if you your argument is correct then why pick a camera that grades internally when its not needed and costs more money and if they DID want 10 bit out.. IT isn't there.


I think my original point that this is a camera that indie film makers want but can't afford and that profeesionals wont want but can afford is correct. It kinda puts this camera in the realm of very very nice toy and one that I would love in my christmas stocking but not one I would seriously go out and risk a feature film on. I just wouldn't. However I would make INDIE short films with it that cost little but those people are not the ones being targeted.

I'm sure though many TV companies will buy this without thinking it through and I'm sure much of the footage will get broadcast or maybe even a niche in the broadcast world found for it.

Canon made a fantastic camera with a single flaw that in my opinion kills it.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Does anyone have an idea when the camera will be in the hands of reviewers? Hopefully this will happen soon and not have to wait until end of Jan. Sony has made a smart move of offering rebates on the F3 (and other things like external recorders, the new ENG zoom) that expire before the C300 is available to the public.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

People will be making camera selection decisions for a number of reasons. If the 8 bit camera allows you to shoot in places that you can't with the 10 bit or RAW camera for example. I know people used to shoot feature films on DSR 500 using DVCAM rather than Digitabeta, even though the latter is 10 bit 4:2:2.. The reasons were partly fashion and partly budget, even though the budget was £1m in one case - it did come down to the last few hundred pounds according to the producer.

Regarding Canon, it could become an issue if their 4k camera isn't competitive with the F3 fitted with s-log or the Scarlet. That's unless this camera intended to be an Epic or Alexa contender in another market entirely, It could depend on what their overall game plan is.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

The Canon does the S log magic in camera so you wouldn't get an S log picture from it to use in post like you would with the F3.

If the Canon and F3 were similar costs you would still pick the one with the 10 bit out because its there if you did need it.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

For the less binary oriented 10 bit holds four times the information of 8 bit. (1024 possible values instead of 256).

I would probably pick the camera with the better image and low light performance. I would be more careful and concerned with exposure on 8 bit.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

I agree with everything Mark has written.

I think Canon rushed the C300 too much. They should have developed a proper codec and electronics rather than use those from the XF300.

At Amsterdam IBC I had the chance to see what the SLog F3 with an uncompressed 10bit 444 recorder was capable of and it was stunning, specially for the price, much better to what I've seen so far from the C300. I atribute this to the F3 having more latitude and the 10bit vs 8bit.

Just for an apples to apples comparison, go check the videos at Vimeo from the F3+Log tests -made with no budget at all- and compare them to the promotional C300 shorts -which had a lot of money to play with, including very expensive grading suites.

In my opinion the C300 sensor is unfortunately handicapped. The C300 is an XF camera with a S35 sensor and should be at the $10k price mark. I don't have a problem paying for an expensive camera, as long as it delivers.

The F3+SLog+Gemini looks much better to me. Also the F3 has LUTs, 3DLink+SDI and 1080@60p, all of which the C300 lacks. With the F3 it's also way easier to build a very simple and balanced shoulder rig, the C300 has an EVF-FF conflict and requires the EVF to be so far back it's out of the camera body, requiring a long and heavy counterbalance.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

The lack of 1080 60p is odd, considering the XF300 has it. We can assume that the C300 sensor is read fast, so I wonder what the problem is?

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Not always, it would depend on the type of productions you were planning to shoot. The C300 form factor might be be more suitable for the type of films you make. If this enables you to get the shots that's the one to go for, 10 bit with no images in the can is pretty worthless.

However, given the competition in the market it would be better of it had 10 bit HD SDI, but it is in spitting distance of a F3 with a Nanoflash in cost terms. How it impacts overall really depends on how many people buy external recorders for their F3 and of those how many buy 10 bit recorders.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

You haven't seen the C300 in a comparable way.
8 v 10 bit only matters when significant changes are needed. 10 bit isn't going to make a well shot image better than 8 bit. If your technically oriented I'm surprised you don't put more emphasis on the sensor differences between cameras. These are major, and Sony knows it.

Re: C300 Discussion
 

Yes but your narrowing the capability of the F3 to make a case.

If you can get your grade in camera at the shoot and you know you'll be happy get the canon as you can cut out the cost of grading.

If you want to wing it and you grade in camera with a view to making minor corrections then get the canon and render your footage into 10 bit and grade that.

If you want to make a film with 5 million riding on it and you want to wing it go see a shrink ;)