Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

That is if your target is YouTube for your school mates.

But if you want to produce a basic but decent, sellable product (even if it's just once every 6 months to a local corporation/school..), are you going to depend on available light only? Won't you have a RAID5 for production and a RAID1 for backup? Won't you have a pro monitor+WF to check whether you're clipping 709 levels? Won't you get a decent head for drift-free pans? etc, etc.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Many top pros don't own any camera gear, they're hired because of their skills or they just hire in the gear themselves because there just are too many different formats these days.. Of course, other's do own gear, it really depends on their market.

You could have a filter wheel inside the FS 100, but the difference would a larger camera, which mightn't suit those people who have got used to a DSLR shooting style.

I'm not sure if the marketing costs for the FS100 are any different to the VG20, they could even be less, although it's possible the profit margin might be a bit higher because they believe there's a smaller market, but it's more demanding, so the support costs are higher.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Exactly, and they don't even have to be top pros to rent.

One of the things that the 5D2 did, due to its very low cost, is to make people think you had to OWN everything to produce a video, and that's never been the case, except for independent ENG guys.

That's why I keep saying Canon's announcement 'might' not be that important, once we got cameras like the F3 with S-Log at such a low price (price being Canon's main weapon).

The F3 costs 250/day to rent, times three for a week. A fully equipped F3 (with S-Log, KiPro, CP.2s set, ARRI MateBox+FF, Sachtler 18, EVF, 17" Panasonic), costs no more than 700-750/day (x3 for a week).
Given that pretty much all First-Class Commercials, Music videos and many corporate videos are shot in a single day, $/€750 is all you need to rent the equipment required for a full Film-Style HD Broadcast shooting nowadays (!). Add another 250 for a grip set with some Kinos and ARRIlites and you get ALL the required tools for just 1k(!).

To have a cheaper camera to own will only be of advantage for docus, where you get a simple crew of 2 guys running around all over the place/planet for a month or two. That's where owning might make more sense than renting.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

If a camera is coming, its time to guess the name! Back when the XF100 &105 were announced, we posters here at DVinfo started guessing the name of the next camera.....we had the XF300/305 then the 100/105 and I think some people thought that there might be a XF200 or 205 coming....I went the other way and said XF500....some said if it was a "cinema style" camera, maybe it would be a XF35.....but I thought that was too close to the Sony F35....so, lets start this up again! Anyone care to guess? If the rumors are true in regards to 2 cameras, I'm gonna go with XF500EF & XF505PL.....

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

If it's the next generation of 5D2, I'm guessing it will be called 5DX.
If it's a high-end (fullframe) video camera, I'm going with something like FFX-55PL & FFX-55EF.

-- peer

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I'm going to swing by the lot that weekend and visit the exhibit. Looking forward to seeing you there.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Henry,

In my opinion expensive cameras should be rented. Cheap cameras should be acquired. If for nothing else, ownership gives you the time to learn the camera adequately and fully utilize its potential. And in my opinion F3 is not an expensive camera. Especially if you can recoup your investment with 60 days of shooting. That can be attained in less than a year and definitely within the 3 year lifespan of today's gear.

Also not all people need to spend 15-20K for extras. All you need is a good tripod. Back in NYU I was shooting B/W reversal on arri with a turret, a tripod and a light meter. Today's HD gear makes no difference. I have learn to trust my DP and my self. Just like the old A/B roll editing motto: "Tough guys don't preview". I never understood all these Frankenstein cameras people are parading in the forum. It defeats the purpose of compactness and speed. That's why I wish the new Canon have a decent compression and a good viewfinder, more than anything else.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Introducing (drum roll).... the Canovision Canoflex 35
(with all the most desirable features like rackover, 4 lens turret, 1000 ft coaxial mags, TTL metering, and a mere 200 lbs total weight.)
I'm reaching for my credit card now!

Ken

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

It will good to see you again!.....

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Naming schemes are NOT Canon's strong suit. ;) XF is probably dedicated to their prosumer line. If they're making a line of cameras outside that target, then they'll probably develop a brand new nomenclature. Without knowing any particulars wrt the cameras, it's hard to predict.

If it is a full frame camera then maybe the use of a "C" to denote "cinema"....

C35-EF and C35-PL
or
C35 and C35A

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

The pro line is the XFs....and "any future cameras from the professional line will utilize the XF codec" to quote Canon last year.
As for your model #s.....great suggestion although I think its going to have XF in there.

Anyone else?

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Well...

Jannard uses color. Apple uses cat names. So I actually think the Canon folks will fall under the spell of some new age marketing "genius" and will henceforth wise up and start a new marketing trend that's more closely related to their core brand nomenclature.

On my short list? The Howitzer Canon?, the Gettysburg Canon, the Pachelbel Canon or perhaps even the Dyan Canon?

Just thinking out loud here.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Bring back the Scoopic, I say.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

This Nov. 3rd announcement sounds much larger than a camera announcement. Canon just announced the newest version of their flagship camera, a super power still camera that apparently is also aimed to be their prime option for DSLR moviemaking, through a simple press release. Why think they would have a large announcement for an FS100- or F3-type camera, or any camera for that matter? This is so much bigger, and the new Canon tech and training center in Hollywood is a large hint of what's to come: Canon taking on the Hollywood scene in some form or fashion. A premier high-end digital cinema camera might also be thrown in the mix of it all, but if it is, it's likely to be something along the lines of Alexa, Epic, F23, or F35...something for the big filmmakers of Hollywood, not anything geared toward consumers or prosumers.

This is what's got Red so spooked, as they've focused a lot of their efforts in the last few years in getting their products into the hands of Hollywood filmmakers. But Red's banking on the success of their much-anticipated Scarlet--Hollywood specs, in a smaller, more "affordable" package.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

In some respects the Scarlet fixed zoom has its roots in the Scoopic.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

On the prosumer market, Canon was the last one to release its first HDV camcorder, the XLH1, but it was better that its competitors. Same thing happened with its first camcorder that record on cards, the XF300 which offer a much better codec than XDCAM EX or AVCHD, and less exepensive that P2.
So it seems that Canon is a follower which release more mature products than its competitors (on the prosumer market).
That's why I think a F3 or FS100-like camcorder with XMF codec would fit with the historical Canon's strategy. Especially because Sony and Panasonic have made the mistake of to equip their FS 100 and AG-AF101 with a cheap codec. Canon can correct this easily and may think that's enough.
Of course the ability to record 4K would be a very pleasant surprise, but I don't dare to hope it.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Since we are waiting for Nov 3rd to arrive I have some questions. I have little/no knowledge of the big screen industry so I am just asking.

4k cinema ?? If Star Wars was shot on the F900, why do theatres need 4k ???

With the F900R being such a cinematic camera, why do we need CMOS ??



HDW F900R specs

Product Highlights
2/3" 2.2MP FIT CCD
1920 x 1080 Active Pixels
3.5" LCD Color Viewfinder
Tripod Adapter
24P, 25P, 29.97P, 50/59.94Hz Interlace
4:2:2 RGB Color Space
Cinema-Quality Imagery
320 ISO Equivalent

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Because... Star Wars was shot on the F900.

Please excuse the Anglophile analogy, but it was a 'courageous decision' to film on the F900. Best technology at the time. Mostly greenscreen, so DoF not an issue. But even in PAL, you can see the pips squeak.

Having seen 4K projected in good conditions a few times now, it is a worthy thing to behold. Even 2K done right is pretty darn good, but 4K is that 'window onto reality'. If one wanted to shoot pictures now and still have them sell with reasonable prices in 20 years time, shoot 4k. 10 years time, 2k. IMHO.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

4k would really depend on the market you're aiming at, very few films have a theatrical life of 20 years, but 4k could make sense as an option for a current theatrical release. If you're going to blur the background with an extremely shallow DOF you may also have to ask why you're shooting in 4K, because you're throwing away the detail.

If you're shooting for TV you'd have to factor the extra cost of post for the 4k in your budget, which may not make worthwhile.given how much tighter the budgets are becoming..

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Hey, I used to own that cam! Man oh man, that takes me back....

And haven't regretted for a minute selling off all my film cameras for a Canon XL-1 since.

Come to think of it, even the XL-1 seems like an antique now.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

With all this speculation concerning Canon's new (alleged) supersonic, zillion mbs 4:4:4, camera going on, can i remind everyone of my favourite Hitchcock quote:

"To make a great film you need three things - the script, the script and the script."

Sorry, i realise there is a techy orgy going on at the mere mention of a press release - and yes i'm interested too - but lets keep things in focus. We're already more fortunate than we've ever been, and it's hard to imagine this press release - and whatever follows - will make the slightest difference.

Rant over. Let's see what Nov 3 brings.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Is Red spooked? It seems at this point Scarlet may sit in it's own niche. Panasonic, Sony, and Canon are likely competing for the same under $15K customer.
It seems to me that Canon as the new kid in the pro space needs to be better than the F3. Why buy Canon if the new camera is an F3 equivalent at a couple thousand dollar discount? Something needs to be better than Sony to win converts.
The market for 3-4K true cinema cameras seems small and crowded. I can only see Canon wading into that competition as part of a larger pro video strategy. Does Arri even sell 100 Alexa's a month?
The "for sure" demand is for a DSLR video replacement - a new camera without the operating inconveniences and imagining artifacts. I'm not sure Canon can produce that replacement for those buyers while resisting the temptation to artificially cripple the new product.
I'm sure the sales figures for the AF100 (whatever those are) influence Canon's new product choice.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

If Canon releases a semi-shoulder mount in the old dependable XL style then it will probably be called the XL-F1, or perhaps the XL-35. It seems unlikely at this point though, as the trend these days is for smaller modular designs like the AF100, FS100 etc.

End of an era?

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Canon won't cripple their product for two reasons....1) in the past, they did hold back because they were selling all those lenses to Panasonic & Sony. At last year's NAB(2010), Sony got very upset with Canon for putting out the XF300/305, priced to compete with the EXs but on a higher, broadcast codec at that same price point($7500). With both Panasonic & Sony, if you want the higher codec, you have to spend more money.....they don't want to sacrifice their higher end sales. 2) since Canon doesn't have those higher end cameras, they don't have to worry about it....the current XFs, and anything that might get announced on Nov. 3rd, are their high end cameras, so, at this point, I don't see Canon holding back any more........which means we all win!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

PS - Chris, You're brilliant!

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Red is also competing with that sub-$15,000 demographic. The line of Scarlet cams and "low-end" Epic(s) look to take on all cams up to the F3 ($4,000-$20,000 range), with the promise of 4K+, variable frame rates, and modularity. It's likely their intention to take over the whole gamut of videographer, from the prosumer to the Hollywood pro.

Canon will likely be wading themselves into the competition, but definitely on a larger scale...the Hollywood scale. Not sure they'll be concerning themselves with the prosumer demographic with this Nov. 3rd announcement. As far as "we're" concerned, they probably feel they've addressed us in terms of DSLR cinema (for the time being, at least) with the 1DX announcement. I wonder if a 5D Mark III or low-end cinema camera a la the F3 is even in the near future.

Canon's gonna attack Red's stomping grounds--Hollywood--and likely look to establish themselves as the goto high-end digital product carrier for the cinema world as they've done for years now in the photography world. Bold.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

This is IMO the state of play regarding 4K:


-Producer: Will you do this next movie?
-Director (Gearheaded-Director): Yes, and I'll do it with this new digital camera in 4K!
-Producer: Great. What's 4K?
-Director: It's a new technology, it's 4 times more resolution than HD or 2K!!
-Producer: will the movie sell better if it's shot in 4K?
-Director: mmm..., well, I don't know. Of course it will be more expensive to do it, and post-production costs will double due to the high resolution. The good news is that you'll be able to re-release it in 10-15 years at the original 4K resolution, if a new TV/Broadcast technology emerges.
-Producer: (silence)
-Producer (more silence)
-Director: Ok, I'll shoot it with the Alexa and its simpler and cheaper workflow.



Wouldn't you love a 4K Canon camera?

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I reread the invitation. I can't remember anything - even remotely similar - phrased in that way from Canon. From Red every other week but from Canon, Never.

If the number of post at this thread is any indication, they better come with something historic... or they will become history's laughing stock!!!

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

So how should Canon ideally handle lenses?
Lets say they have both an AF100 and an F3 competitor.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

EF mount and PL mount. A good idea was mentioned 2 pages prior...

Full IS/Aperture control on EF mount...

Low end model, EF mount, and no option for PL
High end model, PL mount, with EF option/adapter

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Any info yet as to what Canon was announcing in New York City tonight? I've been looking at all the usual canon rumor and fanboy sites, but nothing yet. Anyone else heard anything?

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Yes Jeff, tonight was the Canon PIXMA PRO-1 printer:

Introducing the Canon PIXMA PRO-1 Professional Inkjet Printer

Hope this helps,

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Ha ha, just had the exact conversation with a producer....

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I hear that this printer is primarily for stills. Its novel "video on paper" feature was just an afterthought. Besides, it lacks XLR connections... ;)

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

At least now you know that this Nov. 3rd thing most likely is *not* a printer...

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

"Canon will likely be wading themselves into the competition, but definitely on a larger scale...the Hollywood scale. Not sure they'll be concerning themselves with the prosumer demographic with this Nov. 3rd announcement. As far as "we're" concerned, they probably feel they've addressed us in terms of DSLR cinema (for the time being, at least) with the 1DX announcement."

I disagree. I think the high-end Hollywood field is too crowded with cameras with too few sales per unit. I don't see them going 4K or RAW. However, what they release is going to be good enough to play in both the Hollywood and professional video fields. I think they're going to deliver basically a 1DX in a video camera body with decent audio inputs. It's a lot cheaper R&D to release a video camera with the same technology rather than reinventing the wheel. The I-frame mode of the 1Dx is a clue. I'm not sure it was necessary for photographers, but it was probably developed for the new camera. One difference is that it might be a lower-res APS sensor. I also think it will be sub $10K.

Maybe this is all wishful thinking for the camera I want.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I am not sure if it is just a DSLR limitation but the specs on the 1DX do not support 60P or 60i in 1080.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

With existing EF lenses, IS isn't going to work well in some situations. AF isn't going to work well at wide apertures. Is Canon going to officially support functions on lenses it never designed for video? I suppose they have to. Perhaps they'll have a new EF-S zoom optimized for video.

I don't think they can leave AF out of the low end camera.

I do believe they will make a low end video camera with better IQ than the AF100 or FS100. They don't have more expensive cameras to protect. They could also give us genlock and sdi too, but that would "rock the boat" too much.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Never said the Nov.3rd announcement was going to be about a camera (or solely about a camera)...said it was gonna be about a large integration of Canon into Hollywood, in some form or fashion.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Would be nice if they released optimized lenses for the task, but it would be even nicer having a solution like the birger mount for the red where you can wirelessly pull focus... I know thats a jump and its not going to happen, but it would make the most sense with those lenses as the AF is NOT made for video at all and would violently hunt in a variety of cases im sure... Resolution though, the EF glass will handle anything basically.

Only a couple more days - lets see what you got canon... I need you to convince me not to go scarlet...

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

don't even try to convince me, I'm going Scarlet no matter what :)