Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I think RED's mantra will be to have the camera ready to go when they announce it. As for Canon I'm guessing xmas time!

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

When Canon announced the 5D2 in November of 2008, it was shipping almost immediately. Finding one was another story. I got mine around mid-December at a local Fry's store after putting my name on lists at the local camera stores and checking regularly at the nearby Best Buy. Everyone was charging list, so it was a matter of first-one-with-the-camera-wins. I was able to buy a spare battery a couple weeks before I got the camera.

RED's reputation is to announce lots and ship little. It looks like that's changing, with the company taking orders for Scarlet on the 4th. I believe that they plan to ship immediately, but if you're not first in line, you might end up on the backorder list.

If you can wait until November, you can probably wait the short time it will take to get one of these products into your hands. Sure, it will be an exciting, anxious time, like a kid checking the mailbox everyday for delivery of a decoder ring. But not long after it arrives, the importance of the dollars and the time spent will fade in significance...

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

November 3rd I'll be in Caribbean, wish me good luck to find fast internet connection there :)

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

If somebody can link me to an official price announcement that would be fantastic (still cant click on scarlet on their site)...

I am holding off jumping off the DSLR ship until the announcement, and seeing what the availability/wait time is. I dont want to sell my stuff, and then be left high and dry around christmas while I wait for scarlet/whatever canon announces (and depends what I buy) to arrive. I need to make the move to higher end stuff shortly here and Im antsy as anything to see what the next round of offerings are... Whatever one offers framerates higher than 60p... I will buy. If canon doesn't offer 120p and EF mount, Im definitely going RED.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

People are different -- and I probably belong in your "delusional" category: A couple of years ago, just in time for me to put down some money on a ground glass for my XL2, I impulsively sold the camera altogether and bought a new hot 5D2 -- full frame shallow DOF film look has always been my desire. However, as soon as I had my work played in a theater, I started ogling the Scarlet. So a few days ago, when I saw Canon's Nov. 3rd announcement, I sold the 5D2. Now I'm anxiously waiting for an early x-mas present -- hopefully a joint Canon-RED venture ;^)

-- peer

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Well! A facinating thread. Really enjoying it. I'm not really a technical boffin so much of the specs spoken about here are over my head.

I'm interested in making video that if accepted gets an airing on local tv. Simply put all I hope for is a camera that is large enough to have essential switching of features on the camera body, not buried deep somewhere in a menu. Buttons and switches big enough to use your fingers so as you don't have to carry a sharp pencil to press them. Shoulder mount so you can shoot a vox pop interview at eye height. Heavy enough to mount on a decent tripod so that it doesn't blow over in the first puff of wind and end up in the mud. If it's backward compatable with all the XL accessories we've bought, adapted and made even better.

As to the technical bit, that's up to Canon. Just make us something that's durable, up with the play and user friendly.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

The 5D does have improvements over an XL2 with a ground glass although with some moire effect, However, always waiting for the next great camera for your project is pretty delusional, you should get on with it. There's nothing wrong with wanting to buy a Scarlet, although what currently comes under that model name seems to be a matter of debate.

The wisdom of selling your current camera would depend on if you're likely to need the camera before you can get the new camera delivered.

There are a number of options currently available and how these new cameras fit in remains to be seen, although I strongly suspect we're looking at cameras that are more expensive than the 5DmkII. If you have one off projects for theatrical screening you can rent a higher spec camera. Large screen projection does tend to show all the flaws, but quite a few successful films have managed it regardless .

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I believe that the specs and pricing will be announced on November 3rd.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Yes - absolutely right. And it's true one can obsess over the gear - but this is a thread about a likely new camera, so it's the right place to have technical thoughts and comments about forthcoming announcements. (I wouldn't talk about technical aspects in a thread about technique.)

And yes you can wait forever, there'll always be a new camera round the corner - but we're not talking about forever, just about 5 weeks. If anyone is thinking of an upgrade "sometime soon" (rather than buying for a specific project), then surely it makes a great deal of sense not to buy anything before the announcement? Certainly not if you're thinking of a FS100, AF100 or F3?

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Indeed, this is a short time scale with a date at the end of it and if you currently have no urgent need to buy one of these cameras for a project, holding off for a month makes sense.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

New camera with EF mount and PL mounts.

Great, if you can afford a camera that is well over $9,000 with accessories. Don't kid yourself, it will be.

For those of us looking for a $5,000-$6,000 camera from Canon with replacement lens, it's gong to be another big appointment.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

In my book it just has to beat the AF100 and FS100 which shouldn't be hard. Both camera's have fatal flaws IMHO. If it's a few thousand more, so be it. I buy cameras to last 3 or 4 years, so I can wait for the right one to come along and pay a little more. I am a little nervous about that prototype picture that has the LCD on the top of the camera, ala FS100. Basically that means you can't shoot above your head or use the thing on a tripod that's taller than you (which is all the time when shooting press conferences or speaking events). I don't know who thought this would be a good idea.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

not like on FS100 on scarlet/epic monitor can be detached, but you probably will need a longer cable, which you can buy for as low as $240 :)

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Just a reminder that the topic of this thread is something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd.

I have removed from public view a couple of off-topic posts that were railing about another online community. Please folks, if you want to talk about some other forum site, post it to your own blogs, because that's not what DV Info Net is about. The purpose of DV Info Net is to discuss the creative and technical aspects of digital video -- nothing else.

Sometimes I see other forum sites talking trash about DV Info Net, so I know how it feels and I have resolved to never allow DV Info Net to be used for that same purpose. What happens on other forum sites is not our problem and therefore has no business here. If you're disappointed with the way some other forum sites are operated, then you really should be spending less time with them and more time with DV Info Net. Thanks for understanding,

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I think "fatal flaws" may be a bit strong, but neither of those are ideal, that's true. The AF100 seems to suffer from "making the best of" a chip which is primarily for still cameras, the FS100 is missing such as HD-SDI and internal NDs.

In both cases, one area which could be greatly improved upon very cheaply is the codec, and the general feeling seems to be that for anything like serious work you want better than AVC-HD, and ideally a fully broadcast approved codec like XDCAM422 or AVC-Intra 100. Hence the big market in buying external recorders, and the extra cost. It's hard not to think that the use of AVC-HD is as much due to Panasonic and Sony protecting their higher end products as engineering/cost reasons, and CF/XDCAM422 in the XF100/300 seems to give weight to that - I see no reason why CF/XDCAM422 in a new Canon camera should add anything to the cost of production versus AVC-HD.

Which could mean that if the camera was to cost a thousand or two more, it's still no more expensive overall than an FS100/AF100 with separate recorder. And that money could go towards more general improvements to the camera. Alternatively, cost the same as the AF100/FS100 - but with inbuilt full quality codec.

Yes, it's early days, we don't yet even know for sure that Nov 3rd will see any new camera from Canon, let alone a direct AF100/FS100 competitor, let alone the details. But as has been said before, the possibility must be realistic enough to make it silly to buy anything in the next few weeks unless you really have to get something NOW.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I'm thinking that this won't be a one cam announcement. There will be a digital cinema cam and some EOS cams announced alongside. All will share some tech, like the DIGIC 5. The cinema cam will support PL and EF, good audio, etc. The EOS cams will improve but still be compromises.

From a marketing POV, this sprinkles Hollywood glitter on the stills line - something Nikon can"t do.

Don't just sell cameras. Sell dreams.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Canon has developped a line of processors derived from the Digic, but specifically aimed at camcorders, the Digic DV. I'm pretty sure we won't see a Digic 5 processor in the upcomming camcorders.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

From a quick Google search, the most recent Digic DV press release was about the DV II, released in January of 2007.

Anyway, it doesn't have to be the DIGIC V that is shared to tie the camera lines together for marketing purposes. Most any technology, including the EF mount, could be cited in ads.

It's pretty easy to envision the blockbuster-style TV ads that could be developed. Add an A-list Hollywood spokesperson and your ad campaign writes itself.

FWIW, the most recent EOS mass e-mail was something about "telling the story with HD."

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Canon. New York. October 26th. Pixma. EOS....

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

From the Canon website: Canon U.S.A. : Consumer & Home Office : XF305

The chip in the XF serie is the DiGiC DV III, which I beleive has the logic to encode XDCAM HD 422 at 50 mbits/s. I would not be surprised at all if the newer big chip camcorder as this chips (unless they are 4K, which remains to be seen). After all, the size of the chip is irrelevent from the processor's stand point.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

LAKE SUSPENSE, N.Y., October 27, 2011 – Canon U.S.A., Inc., a leader in digital imaging, today announces the long awaited 5D MKIII. In addition to superb low-light performance and increased overall speed, this camera has the new DIGIC 5 image processor, HS SYSTEM, Full HD video capture, High-speed Burst HQ and Intelligent IS providing clearer, smoother looking images. Limited numbers will be available for the Holiday shopping season.......

If Chris is right that history repeats itself the last time a new processor was introduced (G10 I think) it was followed up by the 5D MK II. The soft S100 release, current discounts and dealer batch pricing would support this.

As far as the Nov 3rd date, two new cameras one taking the new Canon PL mount and the second that utilizes EOS lenses, to be released around NAB. After that my crystal ball gets a little cloudy.....

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

That's the eve of PhotoPlus Expo.

It's always a nice little photo trade show. Not as big as PMA used to be, but still a very good show. I'm planning to be there, as usual.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I think David might have nailed it. 5D3 at PhotoPlus. Shipping almost immediately. EF/PL cinema cam(s) announced in Hollywood. Shipping in April, 2012.

We will see if the Hollywood glamor rubs off on the stills line.

My guess is that a 1D5 will follow in Q1 2012. It will be full frame and include a (possibly windowed) sports mode with higher burst rate, merging the 1Ds and 1D into a single camera.

[PURE CONJECTURE MODE - OFF]

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

If the Nov. 3rd Canon announcement (or Oct. 26th announcement for that matter) is in regards to a single-sensor cinema cam to compete with the likes of the F3, FS100, or Scarlet, it would be really nice if they offer both a "just-the-cam" option and an option that includes a set of fast primes, like Sony did with the F3. The unfortunate thing is it'll likely be up in the price range of a Scarlet or F3, which'll likely gear us poor-folk video guys to the 5D Mark III, that is if it's one of the releases and is similar to the Mark II.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

In the past, as far as I can remember, Canon offered the XL-1s or XL-2 as a body only and it didn't sell that well. Now, times have changed, and if a new cinema camera is on it's way, I would think they would offer it with and without a lens ala the Sony F3. A bigger question would be, would they offer a motorized zoom for the camera? Can you make a motorized zoom that works and not interfere with the communication between the EF lenses and the camera....because I would think the most important thing would be for all the 5D & 7D owner's lenses the seamlessly work with a new video/cinema camera....if that's whats coming.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

That would be awesome to have a motorized zoom lens as an option. It stinks having to invest in two cameras--one for run-n-gun and another for staged videography. How sweet would that be to be able to take your camera from your commercial shoot, switch lenses, and now be able to shoot sports?

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

A sports option for the S35 sensor already exists with the adapters that allow you to use 2/3" video lenses on the large sensor cameras. Of course, they're not that cheap, but neither are the lenses and the max aperture becomes f 4.

From a cost point of view on a S35 sensor a modified stills zoom lens could be your best bet, but it won't be a piece of glassware with a wide aperture and a wide zoom range.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I believe the diagonal on a 2/3" camera is about 11mm, and on S35 more than double that?

So it's worth underlining that any such adaptor is not a simple mechanical coupling, but must have optics to spread the image to cover the bigger sensor. Which is why your f1.8 2/3" lens translates to f4 (maybe less) when used with such an adaptor.

The other issue may be powering of the zoom. 2/3" cameras will be designed to electrically drive the lenses - will your S35 camera have the same ability?

And as far as a dedicated motorised zoom lens goes, then yes - anythings possible. But it will need a focal length range more than double that of an equivalent 2/3" lens for the same angle of view. It may be possible - but expect it to be big, heavy and expensive. Or compromised in terms of zoom range and/or maximum aperture.

This is why in the broadcast field 2/3" has ended up as the norm - a good compromise between versatility, cost and such as dof control. Larger formats may bring benefits if you want more dof control, but expect it to be at the cost of other factors.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Yes -- around 25-28mm. If Canon does an S35 sensor for this November 3rd announcement, I wouldn't be surprised if they used the same sensor size as the 7D (22.3 x 14.9mm active area).

Agreed. Optically, it's the exact same thing as a rear teleconverter, and has the exact same downsides.

I do not consider a larger format with a narrower f-number to be "compromised" in any sense of the term. For example, if the November 3rd announcement is a S35 camera with a 20-400mm f/7-15 lens to match the 4.5-90mm f/1.6-3.5 lens on 1/3" formats, I would consider it equal. If anything, the lens would have fewer aberrations and lower cost. But they could make it much better (and not just equal) for only modest increases in weight/cost (e.g. 20-400mm f/4-8). I explained the whole reasoning here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-eo...eeper-dof.html

For example, a 70-200 f/4 lens on the 5D2 is sharper, lighter, and cheaper than the 35-100 f/2 on Four Thirds. And it has the same (or less) noise at ISO settings that are two stops higher (e.g. 1600 vs 400).

Basically, the reason comes down to the fact that 200mm f/4 and 100mm f/2 have the same aperture diameter (200 / 4 = 50, 100 / 2 = 50).

The reason 2/3" ended up as the norm is because of the issues/limitations imposed by the dichroic beam splitter, at least according to what I was told by a guy who designed three industrial beam-splitter cameras.

Speaking of 2/3", if the Nov 3 announcement turns out to be an XL-series replacement, I would prefer it to be 2/3".

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I'm familiar with your reasoning, Daniel, and (in general) tend to agree with it. By "compromised" I meant a direct comparison in so far as f nos and zoom range etc go, and I'll stick by that. (And I don't think you'll disagree with that, in so far as it goes?)

The wider issue is that you're saying that if sensor A has (say) 8x the area of sensor B, then it will give identical depth of field at a 3 f stops less? So if B is at f2, A will be at f5.6? I agree with that.

I believe the follow on is that the bigger sensor gathers more light, therefore better sensitivity, hence A at f5.6 will need the same lighting level as B at f2 - hence equivalence. With all else equal, I agree with that assumption.

But in reality, the thing that will NOT be equal is that the 2/3" system is likely to be 3 chip, the s35 likely single chip. And a single chip of a given size will inevitably not be as sensitive as a 3 chip system of the same size, due to the filtration loss. In the example above, for B at f2, A is more likely to be around f4 at best. And once you start to consider other factors, it's likely to be even less, that includes using sensors designed for stills, such as DSLRs and the AF100. (Which is why the FS100 has a better than expected sensitivity advantage over the AF100.)

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Yep, I agree here and with the rest of your post too.

You're quite right; that's a good point that I forgot about. Increased sensitivity is one of the major advantages of 3-chip systems. The lens on an equivalent Bayer camera would have to be at least a stop faster just to equal the sensitivity, and that means heavier, more expensive, and thinner DOF (which is often not desired).

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Do you account for the loss of light due to the prism splitter. Maybe what the 3 CCD gains from the larger area is lost due to the prism in front of them.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

No, but I think it's less than 1/3 stop. Best case scenario it has no additional air-glass surfaces compared to Bayer, and only 2% loss of desired spectrum from the dichroic mirror coatings.

Worst case, it has four extra air-glass surfaces (one air gap inside the prism and another between the prism and each sensor), bigger loss of desired spectrum from the dichroic mirror coatings, and additional loss from an extra color filter over the sensor (to remove undesired spectrum). If you guess 5% loss at each extra surface (i.e. no anti-reflective coatings at all), and, say, 15% loss of desired spectrum from the dichroic mirror and color filters, that's still less than 1/2 stop of light loss.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Good point, but those losses are small compared to the difference between 3 chip and single chip due to such as Bayer filtration. "A stop" is a rough approximation for the difference, and allows for the prism loss. Practically, I'd expect somewhat more than a stop rather than less. Because of the dichroic principle, the great majority of the incident red light should go down that route, and ditto for green, blue.

In a Bayer sensor, half the green light is lost to filtration, (1/4 in the red, 1/4 in the blue photosites) and 3/4 of the red and blue. It's difficult to easily equate that to simple sensitivity terms because of the matrixing, but "about a stop difference" is a decent ball park figure.

What this means is that (with all else equal) something like a 3 chip 1/2" system will have roughly comparable sensitivity to a single chip 2/3", and the same for any two systems where the single chip is twice the area of the 3 chip.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

EDIT: I don't want to get anyone in trouble; so, all I can say is that the camera 'should' be a large sensor video camera. It should be a major competitor to the F3. It should have a sensor size similar to the 7D with electrical EF/EF-S support and 50Mb 422 codec.

These 3 features alone should should make the camera extremely popular. Many people have been waiting for a real video camera to use their Canon glass with.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

"Should" we expect it to be in a price point similar to the F3, or FS100?

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

We will find out what is coming and at what price on November 3rd. I think we're all killing ourselves trying to predict what is really coming and how much is it going to cost and at this point....we are just going to have to wait. We did receive our invitation yesterday.....the event starts at 3pm PST....so sometime after that, I expect the press release to go out and of course, Chris will probably have it up on this site before everyone else....whether it is a printer, photo contest, 5D mkIII, or a "cinema camera", or,or Canon is buying RED, Panavision, & Paramount Studios!

There, I feel better....

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Canon already has the basic camera. How about the price of a Canon XF100, only a little bit of tweaking from there-- add a different sensor, rearrange the body a bit, and add an EOS mount. Everything else can remain close to same.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Wonder how long the line will be to purchase one? I CALL DIBS!!!

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I dont know about the price of the XF100, as Im sure they will mark it up more, but I am hoping for something similar in size.

Ill be content with APS-C sensor size, small ENG form factor, XDcam 4:2:2, clean HDMI (or HD-SDI), with EF mount. Im sure they will offer a PL mount option as discussed earlier for a different price point.

One month until we all cheer or wonder why Canon sold themselves short... lets hope for the former.