Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

The thing that amazes me most: Canon has created quite a stir with a simple, obtuse ad.

Thing that amazes me 2nd most: that nothing has leaked out yet!

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Rather its nothing that many want to hear has leaked out. Any hints about what it really is would be completely dismissed (or not even noticed) by those so obsessed with the rumours.

Steve

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Anyone knows if the Canon Nov. 3rd and/or the RED event will be podcasted...?

-- peer

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

"Rather its nothing that many want to hear has leaked out. Any hints about what it really is would be completely dismissed (or not even noticed) by those so obsessed with the rumours."

Hope you're not drinking the printer cool aide! Fact: At least 2 cameras coming, and they will not disappoint.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Well, before the 'official' announcement from Canon that there would be an announcement on November 3rd, there were a number of strong rumors circulating from at least 2 sources that Canon was about to release 2 cameras in November.

Those rumors stated that they would release both EF and PL mount cameras with the XF 4:2:2 codec.

These rumors stated that the EF mount camera would be affordable, and aimed at the same prosumer territory that the FS100 is in (i.e. no HD/SDI, probably 1080p), while the PL mount would aimed at a more professional market, would be more expensive (with HD/SDI out, possible 4K though presumably it would need a more robust codec if thats the case).

Those rumors came out before the November 3rd announcement, but did specify a November release from Canon, so it would appear whoever leaked the information had some knowledge that proved correct.

We'll soon know.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

The low end camera BETTER have SDI out OR a clean HDMI feed. That would break the deal for me... XF105 would be better for my application then...

Less than a week.... Lets go Canon...

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

There's no way of knowing what has leaked until post announcement. It's really Red that has messed with people's expectations. After November 3 people can sit down and really look at what equipment works for what they shoot.

A lot of people are invested in Canon equipment and technique. It's not an issue of a response to an ad, but of a future direction.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I hope for ALL of us Red continues to "mess with" the industry. If it weren't for them, I'm convinced the industry would have settled with 1080P and affordable S35 cameras would have been simply a fantasy.

Before anyone calls me out for being a Red "fanboy", I too am watching Nov 3 very carefully and I will buy the best product for my purposes regardless of manufacturer. If it turns out to be a 4K Canon, I will still feel confident that without Red that Canon camera that I just purchased may have never come to be.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

What is 'printer cool aide'?

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Printer cool ade - appears to be a delicate mixture of 12 separate flavors.

Very exotic.

Very expensive to supply

Particularly the need to re-supply it with sweet, lightly sweet, extra lightly sweet, demi-sweet and semi-sweet cartridges in order to maximize the "tonalities" of sweetness you can reproduce.

(just joking, kids!)
I understand the quest for greyscale control - and applaud Canon for their search for the highest possible results, even if I can't afford to own and feed a beast like the new Pixma!

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Agree, Red brought S35 down to under $50,000, but I'd give more credit to Canon for (accidentaly) bringing S35 (ok, ok, APS-C) cameras to the masses with the 7D. Now we've got S35 for $5000.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

An EF model and one with PL will be released with both recording to CF cards using their 50Mb 422 codec. There shouldn't be much else to differentiate between the two cameras.

There was some speculation that Canon would release a 4k camera when Jim Jannard apparently first heard about it from insiders and immediately came out and defended his cameras. Maybe someone was conducting counterintelligence in order to mess with him.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Wow, that's underwhelming.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

And it's inaccurate.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

If that was all that it is, would it really be underwhelming (assuming it is competitively priced)? Perhaps peoples expectations are too high.

If you had said a year ago that an affordable DSLR type camera was about to be released, without moire & aliasing, with XLR inputs, clean HDMI out (possible and hopefully HD/SDI) and with an industry standard robust codec (generally accepted by the likes of the BBC & Discovery), well that would have been everyones dreams answered. Whats changed?

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I gave you 2 very small pieces of info and purposely left out what I really know. If I said that Sony was releasing a single camera with a 35Mb 420 codec and proprietary F mount, that would seem 'underwhelming' as well, but that was the F3 just a year ago, and that camera has been anything but underwhelming.

See, this is the problem with a company announcing an announcement. The rumor mill goes crazy and too many people get their hopes up for some revolutionizing and amazing camera.

For me, a truly revolutionary camera would have modular recording options like the PIX240 and its caddy options. Give me choices between recording to CF, SxS and SSD and recording to 8bit MPEG2 422, 8bit H264 and 10bit AVC-Intra. This lets people choose what they need.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

My guess is it's not film

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

But...... what do most people want the HD-SDI or HDMI output on the AF100 or FS100 for? Isn't it to record to a "better than AVC-HD" codec?

Build that in - be it XDCAM422, AVC-Intra 100, or any such broadcast approved codec - and doesn't much of the need for the higher spec outputs go away? (Together with the need for an external recorder, period.)

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Exactly. Who would really bother using an external recorder on a Canon XF305? There would be limited uses for it, probably more suited to a studio environment. But for most applications the 50mbs 4:2:2 codec would get the job done.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

The HD SDI or HDMI is handy for a monitor or (depending on the form factor) an external viewfinder. Hopefully Canon have taken on board all the comments about the F3's arrangement, so the layout doesn't need a 3rd party V/F.

If it's got a broadcast approved codec, that should satisfy the productions most people will be using the camera for. However, if it's getting into the F3 range, having the external recorder option would become a competitive requirement for those people shooting dramas or commercials, using either log or even RAW for acquisition.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Yes, but if at the F3 end of the price range I'd take HD-SDI as read. I find it highly likely we'll be seeing two models (as with the F3/FS100) and the earlier comments are more concerned with a possible FS100 price competitor. And I think it's unrealistic to expect log or RAW at that price point. Though HDMI at least is reasonable to expect. We'll see. I just don't see lack of the outputs as much of as much of an issue on this hypothetical camera as it would be on the AF100/FS100.

As regards log/RAW, then that really means more than just HD-SDI anyway, doesn't it? Access to the data much earlier in the chain than when processed to form even HD-SDI?

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Although there's significant price cutting on the F3 already. Which is interesting. Perhaps the skimpy codec is not as acceptable as you believe.

There's little cost difference in delivering better anymore. It's just the Japanese oligopoly delivering the bare minimum each year. Fortunately with Red and to some extent Canon video price/performance may begin to resemble the actual price/performance curve of the underlining technology.

Not that the whole kit will ever be remotely inexpensive. It's too specialized. And great glass is still apparently expensive to make. But putting a small codec like the F3 and then messing with s-log is just a game played by Sony to differentiate the F3 from their more expensive models.

IMO, the fundamental fact that we're going to be at 1080p for many, many years means the Japanese probably don't have a workable long term business model.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Indeed, HD SDI would just be being used as a feed to monitors or other accessories in such a case. A suitable output for the data for recording also being a requirement over and above the basic HD SDI, depending if it doesn't have a means of on board recording.

However, even on a FS100/AF100 type version, a HD SDI or HDMI would still be a requirement for a monitor, since nearly every production seems to need one for production people, if not the camera people. I agree that there would be little need for most people to use an external recorder if there's a broadcast codec being recorded on the camera itself.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I think Steve was simply telling part of the story. Whether he is under an NDA or just his word to not give out any other information & spoil the big announcement on Nov. 3rd i think is the right thing to do. I'm sure there are many others that know what is going on, but have given their word not to let the cat out of the bag. We need to respect their loyalty to Canon for keeping their knowledge a secret. Kudos to all those who choose not to let that information out simply to have the spotlight for a very brief moment. Of course i am sure that anyone who did so would ever be privy to any sensitive information from any company after that!

It is great though, reading about what people would love to see Canon release. This thread has been a great read, & every evening i look forward to reading the new posts.

Bryce

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

and as a reminder....Canon Japan is reading this and other threads & blogs....it was something I talked about with the team making the XF300/305 3 years ago...and they confirmed to me the next NAB that they were...to quote " Mr Martin, we have been reading"....I said "great, where is my camera"...he said "patience".

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

PS...only the people who are on NDAs really know what's coming, and the rest is hearsay & wishful thinking. I would put forward that someone posting "this is what's coming" should be taken with a grain of.......
WE find out in 5 days....then WE will know for sure.....I'm excited!

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

From a “inside source”

Super large sensor: Twice size as the Canon 5D, but lower pixel count to control or eliminate moire and aliasing issues.

14-bit uncompressed 6.3K RAW at 9 FPS, 4800 Mbps

Multiple EOS mounts to support all makes of camera lenses.

XLR inputs. Tracks are individually adjustable.

External and internal NDs.

Low noise up to 9400 ISO

External outputs 4:4:4 for external recording.

Component design for any and all accessory add ons.

12 inch HD on camera monitor LCD, with swing down slightly magnified eyepiece.

Tri-SD card slots for continuous recording.

No Rolling Shutter

The word 4K is stamped with engraved gold around it's 2.8 3D capable 40x zoom lens. Like a pearl of great price, Gemini 4:4:4 is written on the back panel. The shipping box contained a free and unlimited use of a newly designed state of the art NLE, that will work on Apple, Linux or PC operating systems.



From a unconfirmed source, and found written with a magic marker, on the inside of a men's bathroom door, at Paramount Studio.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Sensor is only 72mm? 40X f/2.8 3D zoom? Wow, that's underwhelming. Wake me up when it's 150mm sensor with 80X f/1.4 lens.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Although I too think 50mbits is a sure thing, there must be a 2nd in camera recording option at a much higher bitrate and/or color depth. Something at least equal with 1DX's unspecified intraframe codec.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

It'll be interesting on Nov 4 and after for a few ? till the user reviews come in, standby for crazy time.

To keep the hype going if Canon have really done their thing properly, then they should have follow up 'announcements' to keep the ball rolling.

Cheers.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

There are currently three price points for the affordable s35 cameras:

-under $6k: 1Dx, FS100, AF100
-under $14k: F3
-under $20k: F3+SLog+KiPro

Canon should either lower those price points with a similar product or improve the current offerings at the same price target. Anything else won't affect the market or buying decisions much.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I believe the primary improvement would be the codec on the new Canon cameras. Price points would probably be similar, with perhaps rebates by the manufacturers affecting the out the door costs.

As far as chip size, Canon has to be aware that its full frame 5D changed the look of digital film making. The question is does Canon want to promote that different look, or go back to the more safe super 35mm frame size. Will be interesting to see if any of these things are addressed.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Not quite - the AF100 isn't s35 - it's four-thirds, and after allowing for the 16:9 sensor crop, the used area is not much more than half the area of s35. Hence you need to be nearly a stop wider open than s35 for the same depth of field. It's also making the best of a sensor designed for stills, and that shows (compared to the FS100, F3) in terms of things like sensitivity and dynamic range. I'd hope the coming Canon to have a sensor designed for video, like the Sony F3, FS100.

And (as Chris says above) the expectation is for the broadcast spec XDCAM422 codec. It should be easy to implement that at no extra cost relative to AVC-HD, which would mean no need for the expense of an external recorder as for the FS100 and AF100.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Agreed.

However, as witnessed in Dan Chung's interview with Canon over the 1DX, Canon are quite happy to take a gun, hold it over their own choice of foot - nay, toe - and quite happily pull the trigger in order to satisfy the Marketing Department (why does the 1DX have to have a non-clean HDMI output? Why isn't there a £300 upgrade to shoot unlimited shot length? So they can sell these new cameras).

I fell 'hook, line and sinker' for the XLH1, until I looked at its viewfinder. Ditto 550D, until I found its noise (and the rest). Was giddy with excitement for the XF300 until it appeared with a 1/3" sensor. Canon do tend to enter 'fashionably late' to most parties, but they also seem to bring a bottle of cheap cider which puts a dampener on their entrance.

I really, really want Canon to do something wonderful: there's so much to do with all that excellent glass, even if it's seen as a 'pocket money Red', it could mop up the entire Low to Mid corporate/web market.

Yet somehow, I've already started letting myself down gently. It will be great, but what's the flatulent pachyderm with psoriasis, bronchitis and halotosis that Canon tend to bring into the room at the behest of its Marketing department on these occasions?

PS: happy to eat my words, Canon, very happy to

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

There is what people want and there is what "they" will give us. RED says they will give us more, but in the end nobody is going to give their product away. I am not expecting a camera from either company to be under $10,000 The big distinction is using the term cinema. Which translates to charge more than a video camera. Canon's best play imho is to compete with the F3 while making a 5DMKIII that satisfies the lower budget market segement. They want to sell lenses as well and if the prices go too high people don't use still lenses for their productions.

I agree with the above post about Canon not offering upgrade packages. They say in the interviews that longer recording and HDMI etc.. would be 20% more. Well I would guess there are a lot of poeple who would pay $600 - $2,000 more. If they offered an XLR addon that would be well received as well. What does not make sense to me is what they are protecting here? If someone passes on a DSLR because it is hobbled and buys an FS-100 they lose the body and the lens sales.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

From what I've read from someone who seems to be under a NDA, this appears to be a video division product, rather than a stills camera division one.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Yes, the video product to compete with the F3 and the stills product for the sub $5000 market. If we are lucky they will have a little brother to the f3 rival which will split the middle for the rest of us. Large sensors for all! Just a guess...

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

It's going to be disappointing if Canon has positioned the 1DX as the AF100/FS100 competitor. I would be happy with a 1080p camera with proper audio and ND filters.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I agree with this statement. I am ready to buy the FS100, but have been waiting to see what Canon has up their sleeve on Thursday, Im not interested in the 1DX.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Please remember that the 1DX is first and foremost a Digital SLR, in other words it is a *photography* product (which happens to have some video capability). Canon has positioned the 1DX as the Nikon D3x / D3s competitor. Any other comparison is apples-to-oranges, and completely misses what Canon is intending with the 1DX.

As of this date (31 Oct. 2011), Canon has not positioned anything as an AF100 / FS100 competitor. They are not in that market... yet.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

By the way -- anyone knows if there will be a podcast of the Nov. 3rd (or 3k) event..?

-- peer