re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

On the Shuttle, how do you know the empty space left on the SSD while recording? No screen, no gauge…

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

4:2:2 uncompressed... Is there really such a diference betwen this and let's say prores from ninja at 220 Mbits?? Why not go 4:4:4? 4:4:4 would be great for chroma key work. But uncompressed 4:2:2 compared to prores 4:2:2 at 220 is it really worth it?

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

The reason the Shuttle is so cheap is because it does almost no processing. There is no large processor and no codec licensing fees to be paid - all it does is take the stream directly from the camera and package it into a QuickTime container. The only format it does is 4:2:2 10-bit uncompressed - anything else defeats the purpose.

The purpose of the Shuttle is a cheap, no-frills way to get original masters from your camera to your computer. The whole point is that you then transcode to your editing codec of choice - that's the beauty of it. Since it's uncompressed, you can choose whatever format you want to edit to, without being in locked in with specific formats like the nanoFlash or Ninja. Yes, it does require transcoding, but it's much faster if the source is uncompressed than if you try to convert AVCHD files to something else. That's where you save the money in all this.

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Felix

Excuse my ignorance, but i'm slightly baffled as to the point of this thing.

So having transcoded you'd create new files and dump the originals? I mean who wants these kind of file sizes sitting on their drives, or is this gizmo for high end folks only?

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Dom, The primary function of these video recorders is to allow you to record the non-compressed video out of the camera before the camera has performed any compression of the video... So the non-compressed video will not have any of the on-board compression artifacts present... several people then take the video files and use an intermediate like Cineform to expand on the editability of the files further.... So in post processing you are given more latitude in your edits... like color correction or color grading...

an example would be bypassing on-board mpeg2 compression (8 bit), capture in non-compressed format, use Cineform to convert the file structure to 12bit 4,4,4 - color correct and color grade then output to blu-ray.

Another advantage is recording to disk vs recording to tape.... and other benefits depending on how you use them in your workflow.

Re: Hyperdeck: uncompressed w/5DMII?
 

I looked at this device at NAB this week and it is impressive. It will not work with any of the Canon HD-DSLR's because of the lack of a clean signal coming out via HDMI. I believe that it could be used on the Panasonic GH2. I see the real market for the Hyperdrive being Sony EX1's and EX3's or other smaller chip cameras that have SDI out.

Impressive device.

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

By my reckoning that makes it only a little cheaper to run than a camera using Panasonic P2 cards the price of which everyone seems to bitch about:-)

Re: Hyperdeck: uncompressed w/5DMII?
 

An impressive device at a good price but expensive to run as a 256GB SSD is only good for recording around 30 minutes of video.

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

If you shoot weddings/events, should this be your weapon of choice? Probably not. But from a commercial production and advertising perspective I can tell you this thing is a godsend...as long as it functions as advertised.

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Personally I'm a bit disappointed with the BW thunderbolt device. It looks very nice but a bit pricey compared to other desktop based capture devices. Not everybody needs SDI and other fancy formats such as 3D. I was really hoping they would just make an Intensity Shuttle version with Thunderbolt instead of USB3. Just a basic HDMI device for a low cost.

Oh well, I'm kind of glad I bought a 17 MBP recently. Now at least I can consider getting a Matrox MXO2mini that uses the express card slot. It costs bit more then an Intensity device but much cheaper then $1000.00. I guess this way I can really free up the Thunderbolt port for storage.

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

So someone help me out...

We have a panasonic with P2 cards...unless the cost of cards comes down ALOT, this may be worth a purchase for us. Right

Yes, An E series 64gig P2 card is $500-$600

and this is $345 + $229.00 (Corsair 120gig SSD from Newegg)

This is a WAY better deal!

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Does it only work with SSD? Are regular hard disks not fast enough?

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

That 120GB SSD will only record about 15 minutes of uncompressed video which is a less than one quarter of the capacity of the 64GB P2 card. A 512MB SSD that will record for over an hour runs out well over $1000. It turns out that P2 cards aren't that expensive after all:-)

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

apparently I don't understand how an SSD would store less than a P2 card. boo

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

whats being written on the p2 card is compressed, so more footage can be written to it. the blackmagic does not compress the footage so less can be written to the same amount of storage.

Re: Hyperdeck: uncompressed w/5DMII?
 

Spot on Nigel, and thanks for tracking down that info (I was trying to work it out yesterday). The fact that it only records uncompressed really makes this device a strange little beast. Perhaps it helps to keep the price down because the thing doesn't have to do any encoding. But until SDD (and other storage for that matter) comes down in price it seems to me to be a niche product with a mass market price-tag.

On the other hand this could be a really smart play by Black Magic in the near future. Once we get a clean HDMI out from HDSLRs this device could be great for short narrative work. But for documentary or longer form stuff it seems like overkill. Also I think for most uses I would actually want to transcode this uncompressed file to a high quality intermediate (prores or cineform), to help make the media a little more managable.

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

P2 cards are a great reliable media! I can't seem to bring my self around to trusting SD cards...

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

DVCPROHD which is typically recorded on P2 cards takes about a little over 12 MB/S. It is actually highly compressed video. Not compressed as much as HDV or AVCHD but still highly compressed.

Uncompressed takes 120 MB/S for 8 bit video. That is 10x larger.

Typically in the past if somebody wanted to record live uncompressed they would have to be tied to a desktop computer with a HD-SDI capture card. Eventually we had portable capture devices but these recorded other compressed formats such as mpeg2, prores422 or DVCPROHD. This helped a lot but some people still prefer the level of quality of uncompressed video. It is no different then with desktop live capture when people had the choice between capturing uncompressed or capturing to a lesser format. Some people had to use uncompressed.

Now BW has a way to capture uncompressed in the field without the need of a computer. This is huge but it isn't for everybody. It is for those who need uncompressed and nothing less. Now personally I find Prores422 or equal formats more then good enough for almost everything. For for me this new BM device is a waste since I really don't need uncompressed.

Think of it like on the PC side BM users typically have two choices to capture to. Their own mjpeg format and uncompressed. For many people the mjpeg format is great and beats the pants off of native camera formats. To some however the quality is not as good as it could be. Any form of compression takes something away from an uncompressed source. That how it is recorded at a much smaller size. Something must be thrown out. Some compression formats do better then others.

Re: Hyperdeck: uncompressed w/5DMII?
 

This is something that Canon (and others) may or may not choose to address. An example of how Canon feel about this can be found in their new-ish like of pro camcorders. Their XF100 and XF300 (approximately $3000 and $6500) models are available in an '05' version (XF105 and XF305) which primarily add uncompressed output, and add $1000 to the price tag. If this was an option for the DSLRs, I think some folks (myself included) would pay for it. But from what I hear, Canon internally have had a bit of an issue with the pro video side of the house at war with the DSLR side of the house, which might explain the current appearance of two completely different sets of technologies, hardware and product directions.

I am hopeful someday for a "best of both worlds" solution because once we have a DSLR with the flexibility of a 5D Mark II and the level of control of the XF305, that is going to be one hell of a rig. That's pretty much what RED wants to do with Scarlet, but who knows if that'll ever happen.

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Hoodman showed new ruggedized SD cards at NAB. They're potted and include a steel plate.

Re: Hyperdeck: uncompressed w/5DMII?
 

I have an XF100. It has HDMI out, so it could use the Hyperdeck, or nanoFlash. But the codec on the XF100 is so good I don't ever expect to record uncompressed.

The main difference between the XF100/300 and the XF105/305 is the addition of SDI which is a more common professional connection for uncompressed out, plus the ability to time sync with other professional cameras.

My expectation is the the next generationof SLR video cameras will have full HDMI out. With a nanoFlash this could get around the codec limitations; or maybe they'll just have much better codecs.

HyperDeck ...
 

The one piece of equipment that blew me away from NAB was the BlackMagic HyperDeck. I did not even see this coming! $350 for HDMI/SDI in/out recording to off the shelf SSDs in 10bit 4.2.2 prores ... incredible. Now, I know this part of the forum is about AJA and Ki Pro but I didn't have anywhere else to state this. Anyone else find this product ... well ... shocking!

Re: HyperDeck ...
 

Dean H. - If you want to post about non-AJA products, you can do so under the general "Tapeless Video Recorders" heading as opposed to the AJA-specific sub-category. Please ask Chris Hurd or someone else at dvinfo.net to move your post to the appropriate location.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, it is an uncompressed only, not Apple ProRes, capable recorder.

Regards,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

Re: HyperDeck ...
 

Thanks Jon ... I'll do that ... sorry about the intrusion and by the way, don't refer to me as Dean H.

Re: HyperDeck ...
 

Chris ... can you put my comments into the general tapeless category?

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

I found the answer on the BlackMagic site... the software is the DaVinci Resolve Lite version... the site says it will be a free download starting in July... its a dumb'd down version and you can upgrade to the full version for $1000... still not bad for free, might be interesting to play around with...

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Was hoping that BlackMagic would put up the manual for the shuttle today... didn't happen... but looking a the specs and looking at the input/outputs it looks like your going to need an extra card in your computer if your going to use the shuttle for off loading the files... it has a usb, but that looks to be for control/firmware upgrades... so the only other outputs are the HDMI and SDI ports... for HDMI I'm thinking you'll need the intensity pro card...??

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Ray, all you need to do is buy a $30 eSATA / USB dock for your computer and you can just take the SSD out, plug it into the dock and transfer files at ridiculously high speeds (provided you have a good RAID array in your computer).

Re: HyperDeck ...
 

Done. Apologies for the delay.

I need to gather all of the various BMD threads and merge 'em together.

Re: HyperDeck ...
 

Dean, I too am very interested in the BM $350 box. I've got a couple of questions.

1. What are the mounting options for the unit?
2.Did they have any power options on display?
3.Did you find out what the specs/requirements were for the SSD's?

I will probably pick one of these up as soon as they become available no matter what. At $350 it's worth checking it out.

Thanks,
Garrett

Re: HyperDeck ...
 

I too found this to be one of the highlights of NAB - and an indicator of things to come.

Many of the specifics on this unit are still up in the air. I know that Blackmagic is compiling a list of SSDs that have been tested, but nothing was available on this at NAB. As a reseller, I'm also working to determine what accessories I'll need to stock to make it a complete solution (i.e. power tap cable, mounting screws).

This is practically a "disposable" recorder at the price.

Since the SSDs are so volatile in cost, I'm holding off purchasing any for my initial stocking order until I get an approved list and know that my order has shipped.

Allan Barnwell
Omega Broadcast Group - Professional Video Sales, Rental & Services

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

I find this a strange product at this price point. It seems insanely cheap for the kinds of people who need uncompressed video, and largely useless for everyone else. AFAIK, high end broadcasting is already more than happy with the likes of Panasonic's AVC Intra 100 offering, and the other Sony, Canon systems available. Of course if BM provide smaller data rate options it should fly off the shelves, but for most people it looks - how can i put it - like too much information. I may be wrong, but i find it hard to believe there are many people who really need to capture video at over 400 GB's per hour.

If BM decide to offer smaller file sizes via a firmware update, then this will be a great piece of kit to invest in. For the time being, it looks like a fantastically cheap option for a relatively small number of people at the very high end.

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

But wouldn't it then be the same as the rest of the recorders out there? Don't get me wrong I would love to see a recorder from BM similar to other recorders like the Nano or the Ninja, etc. but if this was added then the price would probably triple.
All that this product does as far as I understand it is that it brings uncompressed video to a whole new price point. I do understand your point though that the high end isn't asking for such a cheap device. But I think that this is going to be used a lot all across the production segment. Except for the very low end...

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Sanjin

"if this was added then the price would probably triple."

Why would that be? surely BM would love to take business from their competitors, and this device with lower data rates would hit the spot. Bring it on!

"I think that this is going to be used a lot all across the production segment."

Still don't understand this line of thinking. High end TV is already very happy with systems like Panasonic's 100 mbps AVC Intra. Who on earth wants to capture video at over 400 Gig per hour?

"Except for the very low end..."

low end like the BBC?

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Dom, the entire reason the recorder is so cheap is because it does almost no internal processing apart from repackaging the file in a QuickTime wrapper. In order to offer compressed codec options, they've have to fit a powerful processing chip and that would increase the price to around the same as a Ninja.

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Felix

Thanks for getting back. So this is not something i'm interested in. Just wanted to confirm that.

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Thank you Felix for answering that.

This is not going to be used by television companies if you ask me. I to can't imagine why they would need such a product... I would use this for promos and music videos and so forth when the benefit of uncompressed would make a difference. And in my opinion this is where it's targeted at.

As for the low end: I wasn't thinking of television off course. Low end promos, corporate, music videos, etc.

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

No, it isn't worth it. The Ninja's ProRes at 220mbps is visually identical to uncompressed, and makes storage six times cheaper. You can buy a Ninja with the cost of an hour's worth of uncompressed solid-state storage. And with a Ninja, you can use spinning drives: $50 for 2.5 hours of video that's visually identical to Uncompressed!

And it's got a monitor. And a carrying case. And it comes with batteries. And ProRes is much better for editing.

Dave Shapton
President
Atomos EMEA

Re: HyperDeck ...
 

It would be great if HyperDeck comes with an analog audio jack for cameras like XLH1 that doesn't include audio with HD/SDI.

re: HyperDeck Shuttle from Blackmagic Design
 

Dave,

I think your products and the BM products are both revolutionary in how that change the economics of quality. While I haven't worked with the Atomos products, they seemed to be designed for acquisition and ingest in a widely accepted Codec, ProRes. I look at the BM shuttle as a post edit, codec agnostic mastering and SDI playback device. Not everyone wants ProRes.

Both look like great products for the money. It wasn't long ago that you had HDCAM tape at 3:1:1, at 144 Mbits.sec (I think that was the bit rate) and at a 100 times the cost.