Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Noa,
I completely agree. The NX1 can't do what the BMPCC can do in raw.
If you'd even compare the footage of the two side by side, you'd probably feel sorry for the GH4 and the NX1.
But I don't think that's the way to look at it.
Not trying to convince you here, since you already have the BMPCC and a GH4 but most people who are not interested in video acquisition and not video or film professionals will NOT be able to discern between anything shot with a GH4 and a BMPCC. They don't try to, and they don't care and guess what, they might not actually be able to tell what they're looking for. If an F1 pilot takes you on a spin on a track for a couple of rounds, will you be able to tell you're in a Ferrari or in a Porches?

I don't know anybody, I mean ANYBODY, who watches Games of Thrones, House of Cards, and other shows trying to see how many stops of DR the filmmakers achieved, or whether some blacks are crushed, or if the trees we can see outside through the windows of the house are in focus and clear. The audience is looking at the talent, some kind of humans they've never seen anything alike in real life, hopefully there is a story that is interesting and that's it. The only people I've seen worrying about the kind of stuff people worry when they compare cams on YouTube are people who are only running tests, people who have no script, no story to tell, nothing to say. So yes, in that case, when you film a pretty girl just walking somewhere, preferably on a beach with sailing boats in the background, there's nothing else to do but comparing stuff that is totally irrelevant as soon as you are above a certain threshold. In other words, as soon as you know how to use a GH4 or a NX1, have time to create beautiful shots and don't expect to fix it in post by pushing codecs that can't be pushed anyway, you have everything you need. Story, actors, lighting and time. The extra headaches brought by cams such as the BMC with their stupid screens or lack of, bad batteries, etc is really not worth the trouble to create an image your audience won't notice. Yes, other filmmakers will, so what?
But, hey, what do I know.
L.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

No, the audience at large doesn't know how many stops of DR they are seeing, or what stops is, or what DR is.

However, they will notice the rest as part of the overall image, even if they can't put their finger on what is wrong. They will just know that something is not as good as it used to be.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

You are right Larry, if I"m out just trying to capture whatever comes along and if I want to leave in the morning and have something ready to upload at night, I'd take my gh4 or any other camera of mine with me without a second thought, all my personal films have been done in that way, they usually require very little work in post an look great out of the box. I use all my camera's for paid work and here I do like that ease of use and fast workflow as well.

The Bmpcc however is the first camera I have ever bought to be used only for my own pleasure and only to experiment with it's higher DR and raw capabilities. It's, unlike my other camera's, not a camera to only please other people with. When I was colorcorrecting the raw footage in after effects it looked exactly the same as if I was correcting a photo in raw and that freedom to push the highlights and shadows in post I find very intriguing. When I was correcting that indoor shot I couldn't believe my eyes how I was able to balance the in- and outdoor exposure of something that originally looked very under- and overexposed.

When I go out and shoot I also don't have a script or a story to tell, I just try to capture something beautiful, I don't really care what other people think of it, it's something I like to do and if I share it online and others like it then fine, if they don't, that's fine as well. I do have some plans to shoot a short documentary so that will be my first and I want to use the Bmpcc for it, no matter how difficult it might be to use. Since I plan to take all the time I need to shoot it I"m sure the difference between this and my other camera's will be worth all the extra headaches :) Or maybe not, and then I can still sell the camera with a minimum loss. We"ll see.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Noa,
I didn't want to sound like a grinch. You're right. Having fun creating beautiful footage is actually good enough and could be a goal in itself.

Gary,
Most of the time what the audience notice is poor lighting and framing, unless you're using something crazy like the Sony AX 100 that is sharp to the point that is ridiculous.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

And I would consider DR to be an element of that lighting part.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Fair enough.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

I guess I made an ass of myself
Look at this: Shot with a BMPCC
https://news.creativecow.net/story/878310

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Larry thanks. Interesting article at that other site.

From the article:
“Another big reason for using the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera is its deep depth of field."

One of the advantages of MFT is that one can have deeper depth of field using Lumix or Olympus lenses or Nikon lenses with "dumb" adaptors. At the same time there's Metabones SpeedBooster to give you much closer (but not quite) shallow DOF potential with Nikon and Canon lenses. IMHO having the deeper DOF (and with lighter Lumix lenses that also have Image Stabilization) makes it a serviceable "run and gun-ish" documentary camera (granted some disadvantages). It's small size is a plus when you need to be discreet.

"Wiggins noted that the auto focus and peaking focus features on the Pocket Cinema Camera were useful when setting up shots. Also, to quickly get the aperture ready, he used the auto aperture button and then clicked up one extra stop for a perfect aperture."

I find auto focus slow though and manual focus with peaking to be reasonably fast. Note that the latest firmware now allows peaking to stay enabled when shutting off and turning the camera back on. This is important when turning off and on to conserve internal battery time.

Some use auto aperture (Lumix lenses support this) as a way to get close and then adjust as he does. Many use an Expose To The Right method (hit zebra and back off slightly) but be aware that can create extra grading work from shot to shot. It's best to expose possibly using the hottest area you want to protect in a scene and leave it for those shots. That might be to protect sky/clouds in a daytime outdoor shot. BTW I get burned by this a bit in a recent shoot because the scene started in overcast and the sun came out in the middle of shooting. Give yourself headroom when shooting outdoors with moving clouds.

"Wiggins recorded all footage in camera as ProRes so he could easily check the rushes while in the field and edit and grade the footage effortlessly on his MacBook Pro."

You'd be surprised how far you can push ProRes. cDNG really isn't necessary but for the most demanding circumstances. ProRes is amazing compared to 4:2:0 H.264. I'd only shoot cDNG if I was doing a broadcast TV Spot or when I know I'd have to relight a scene very radically. In fact I'm often shooting ProRes LT for corporate style work.

"I hope to move up to the next step and purchase one of the 4K models"

And now with the Ursa Mini coming out Blackmagic really has a 4K with an ENG style body. Only thing missing is built in ND... but for ENG and Doco working I may not be switching lenses all that much so using a good VariND filter goes a long way. I also think VariND gives you much finer control when it's imperative to maintain an aperture setting for DOF.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Yes, it's amazing, he didn't even shoot that film in raw, just prores!

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Gary,

You said: "However, they will notice the rest as part of the overall image, even if they can't put their finger on what is wrong. They will just know that something is not as good as it used to be."

Even though I believe that filmmakers should thrive to create the best photography they can, I'm wondering if the people who will go see Tangerine are going to think that something is wrong with it because it was shot with an Iphone?
Watch the Red Band Trailer for 'Tangerine', the Sundance Hit Filmed on an iPhone 5s

That story doesn't interest me in anyway, but I'm wondering how many viewers will be bothered by the cinematography?

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

If they like the film, they will overlook the fact that it looks like those TV shows shot on early digital cameras. And let's be clear here: the use of the iPhone was for a much smaller footprint in Los Angeles, which is notorious for clamping down on filming without permits.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

I would watch any Iphone shot movie that has a great story over a movie like "run all night" which was shot on a Arriflex with Liam Neeson which I saw recently and made me fell asleep twice (seriously) in the cinema and the only reason why I watched it out to the end was because my daughter woke me up me twice.

IQ is not the only important thing but I do have to say I much prefer the look a Arri or Alexa or whatever real filmcamera can achieve, it's the way they can make the color look, the way the camera can deal with high contrast scenes, the way it never seems to clip any highlights. It's a certain look that is hard to explain but when you see it you know it is not shot with a camera that any of us will ever be able to use, and even if we would, we would probably not know how to grade the footage in a way it will get the "cinematic" look everyone seems to be achieving.

The bmpcc can give give you a glimpse of such a look but only in the hands of a experienced shooter and colorist, that might explain why I see so many films that just look weird and with only a handfull that give me that "feeling" I get when I watch a film in the cinema.

I"m sure I won't be getting anything close to that special look but I certainly will be trying :)

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

I"m sure I won't be getting anything close to that special look but I certainly will be trying :)

Practice!

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Hi Noa

Just wondering how you're doing with the BMPCC

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Haven"t had the time to shoot anything with it, I have some projects with a deadline which I have to finish first and right after that I plan to take it out again.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

A neighbor has a BMCC and I tried it on his girlfriend as she walked in the neighborhood, which is the woman in the clip. I've never played with Resolve before this and don't own a BMC myself. This is my first try with the cam and the software.
Down rez to 1080p show in raw.
I'm glad I've tried it and frankly considering that I don't think it's looking great I understand I have a looong way to go learning how to process the BMC footage if I ever decide to get one myself. Frankly unless I was going to shoot a feature length narrative I don't think I'll bother with one of those BMC ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEJ9...ature=youtu.be

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

I got Resolve when I got the BMCC. I think the hardest part of using it is that it doesn't act like "normal" PC Software - probably due to it's roots as a stand a dedicated workstation. I haven't updated to 12 yet and it might be better in that regard.The simple color correction isn't that hard, and I think you can do it in most good NLE's now.

Or shoot in Video (instead of "film" mode) to start out.

I rather like mine but there's no way it's a hand held camera without investing in a cage with a shoulder mount extension etc at a minimum.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Definitely not a hand held cam.
Now be honest and I won't take it personally, what do you think of the footage?

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Hi Larry

Well (and I'm far from an expert and most of my usage is locked off on a tripod as an overview camera for classical orchestra recording)

1) It was handheld = shaky. Stabilizing in post would help a lot if you cut out the shakiest parts. Of course a shoulder mount would help too.

2) It's still pretty flat - I think it can use more work in Resolve (or equivalent) to bring up the color/contrast. I see enough distinct shadows and blue sky in the clip to think it wasn't as overcast/flatly lit as the clip would suggest. Of course I could be wrong (as usual!!!)

I'n still in the early stages with Resolve myself - I think so far the best tutorials I've found were by Warren Eagles. I haven't seen one for Resolve 12 yet, - still watching the Resolve 10 tuts and they're damned good.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Jim,
Yes, it is flat. But I guess in my mind film is flatter than video. But yes, I have a huge amount of work to do it I want to get the best out of that cam. I still don't own it, but I'm going to have the chance to use footage from my neighbor's cam and play with it.
Here's the last attempt:
Is that better?

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

larry-

"is it better?"

you chose a very high contrast scene to "test" the bm.

i thought the white of the snow was dead-on.

have you checked your scopes to see if it is legal?

(looks legal but could be close)

i think the young lady in scene has skin tone which is okay, it looked normal.

again, the sunlight cast a shadow and is so harsh.

there is plenty of blue and subtly in the sky to the right of frame.

and when she leaves frame that breath of red in her clothing also appears very natural.

i am no blackmagic guru or even user.

but i am a VERY interested bm lurker who is oh so close to leaping on one of the blackmagic cameras.

i just don't know if i should wait till autumn and the release of all that was shown at nab 2015 or buy a bmpcc for $500 and play around.

that said, i think you are on the right track.

thumbs up.

ymmv

be well.

rob
smalltalk productions/nyc

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Thanks Rob.

I don't know if you can buy bmpcc for $500 anymore, I think that deal is gone!

PS: What you call young lady is my 70 year old neighbor, the wife of the guy to whom the cam belongs!

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Hi Larry

The snow looks right on as Rob said, and skin tone looks OK.

I think it's "better" (whatever that means, since everyone has their own idea of good better best. You can play with this stuff forever so it's really a matter of what you WANT it to look like. To my (admittedly aging) eye(s) it looks more like I imagine it was. Bright, contrasty, but not (I think) blown out.

Looking at it again, it seems like the front of the house behind her MIGHT be on the verge of blown out - maybe dialing it back a "skosh" would be a good idea.

Best idea would be to shoot a variety of scenes with the camera. Maybe you can hold onto it under the guise of protecting it/checking it out for the owner.

I wonder what there is about the BMCC that appeals to us 70+ individuals?

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Jim,
I think you're right about the front of the house. I realize I got the snow right, for some reason.

Ok, I"m going to see if I can play more with his camera and see how I do. I'm happy to have the opportunity to be able to actually play with somebody's cam before buying mine. I guess if I can't get something decent out of it through Resolve I might as well save the money!

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Good luck!

The way I look at Black Magic is that they don't sell cameras, they sell boxes with a sensor and recorder and you get to buy all the bits and pieces needed to turn the box into a camera. My C-100 out of the box is actually a complete camera, not so my BMCC and BMPCC's.

But having said all that, you can get VERY good results with the BM products. Takes a bit of work, but when you get it down it's worth it IMHO.

And Resolve is great - strange interface due, I think, to it's history as a stand alone workstation. I'll be really interested to get my hands on Resolve 12 in a couple of months.

See if you can find the Warren Eagles tutorials. I got mine from FXPHD. I don't know that he distributes them any other way but I'm pretty impressed with them.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

To keep things in perspective, check this footage, and check which cam did that!

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

As in the guy behind the camera is more important than the camera itself?

I still use my JVC HD 110 - although I've chickened out and record to a Ninja-2 instead of tape.

And I still get great results from my 110 year old wooden 8x10 film camera with a 120 year old lens on it.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

But this is a thread about the bmpcc, not the xh-a1 :)

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

I understand, Noa, but if somebody had retrieved that footage from online, remove all references and post it here as footage from one of the BMC, nobody would have been able to tell it was not. Nobody would have been able to tell that it was actually produced by a cam shooting 1440x1080 made in 2006.
That's my point and it is relevant to the BMC.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

I still don't understand what the xh-a1 has to do with the pocket cam, I can find gopro 4 footage shot in 4K that under the right circumstances will look better then what a xh-a1 can produce, but what would I be proving with that? I have shot for several years with a xh-a1 and know very well what it can do, it can produce some nice images in good light and also some very ugly ones in not so good light, the xh-a1 is no match when it comes to dynamic range if you compare it with a pocket camera once you start shooting and grading in raw, there is no comparison. Every camera has it's pro's and cons, in the right hands and under the right conditions any camera today can look good, the trick is to show what a camera can do best and to work around it's limitations.

The footage from a pocket cam can be pushed further then any other camera in it's price range, the secret seems to be able to know how to get beyond that point where most other camera's give up. That's why I find so much footage from Black magic camera's that don't look good and just a handful that does as many people just don't know how to shoot and edit with this camera and it's based on that footage other people, including you, think you might as well be shooting with a xh-a1.

I probably won't be able to get the best from the pocket cam either but I most certainly am going to try to make an attempt very shortly, and it's not going to be some handheld footage from my garden or cat. :)

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

I think some people may be missing the advantage the BMPCC has over many other cameras. It's not simply how good but how much control you have.

With the BMPCC recording in ProRes flavors and especially in cDNG, you control the look. You can grade it any number of ways, not break the codec and, create any number of looks.

I think a telling test, rarely done, is to take the same video and create two entirely different looks and show that each looks good. That's the thing you can do with the BMPCC that you can't do with other cameras.

With a good DP, most cameras can look good, knowing how to work within the limits of the codec, dynamic range, noise floor, color science. With the BMPCC you have just about the widest door to make changes in post of any camera on the market.

Whether the BMPCC is the right camera for you depends on how important the post grading control is for you.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Sure, both comments are fair.
I don't feel bad not having done a good job with the BMCC as I don't own one to play with it at leisure.
But what Noa says is very intriguing: "That's why I find so much footage from Black magic camera's that don't look good....."
I'm not sure what this means, but I too haven't seen any footage I like shot with any of the BMC, as a matter of fact. I've seen amazing stuff shot with a GH4.
I understand what you are both saying, but I'm wondering if most people are simply not just "wasting" money buying that cam. Wouldn't it be better to download the free version of Resolve, learn how to become a colorist, them buy the cam?

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

That means many don't know how to color correct footage from a bmpcc, or they think they do and call it "cinematic".

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Exactly - +1!!!!!

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

It is perhaps useful to recall that when the BMPCC was first offered for sale the loud and pulsating headline was '13 stops of dynamic range'. Of course the file format meant that pushing and pulling things around in post, serious color grading, was doable. That was way back when Grant Petty didn't have any grey hair, perhaps a couple of years or more ago. It is fair to suggest that Black Magic was targeting the would-be movie maker, or at least the videographer including the home and garden variety, the same way that Panasonic did when they introduced the DVX100 cam that shot 24p can you believe (which of course was all that you needed to make movies just like you see at the movies).

That was way back when Adam was a cowboy.

Things have changed dramatically from a technology point of view. Today even point and shoot cams sport high bit rate XAV-C and relatively decent dynamic range. Every day, it seems, Sony do what they never did in the past; they issue firmware updates and quicker than you can say Jack Robinson.

The BMPCC is not all that unique all of a sudden. Seems to me folks who are fluent with capable grading software can push and pull footage from most any cam including a state-of-the-art cell phone and produce 'art', sort of.

And what with the action cam craze (I refuse to say GoPro), selfies and such like, who cares about making movies anymore! It's for Facebook, YouTube and sharing on cell phones, stupid.

How things have changed, and continue to change...

So when it comes right down to it what is it that the BMPCC brings to the table that is so special these days?

Nostalgia perhaps!

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

The bmpcc offers what Panasony and Canikon doesn't,
13 stops of dynamic range
Raw plus high bitrate codes
Great color
At a really low price.

Still unbeatable. If you haven't tried you won't know but once you get used to raw there is no going back to avchd, h.265 or that brittle XAV-C.

I've yet to see footage from a gh4 or Sony a7s that gets close to Blackmagic, red and so on.
Canon is decent with the c100 but the codec and DR isn't up to speed imo.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

For what it offers at the price it's hard to beat it.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

John, that was a very interesting post.
Mattias, I've seen your video online and you do say in one of them that you are not actually making film.
What am I saying this?
Well, if you're just going to have fun with a BMPCC and not really make movie, but just 2' clips, sure, you can handle to shoot raw as you film your dog. You're not really facing all the issues and headaches this cam could give you.
If you're going to shoot a low budget that last 90 minutes on screen and you choose to shoot raw, seems to me you'll need a very decent computer and around 15TB of hard drive. Do the math.
Now I've just had a brief glance at what the BMPCC can do, yes, it's great but frankly I've reached an age where I don't really care about the sky being blow out or not being able to see the cat in the shadow. Content, content, content.
I'll watch Death and the Maiden shot on VHS or an Iphone anytime, as long as Ben Kingsley and Sigourney Weaver are still cast in it and it's still directed by Polanski. I'll watch Duel if Spielberg shoots with an Iphone.
That was shot with a GH4, and yes, Noa, this is indeed relevant to the BMPCC as we are now debating if that cam is really justified for the tiny bit of DN range it's going to bring. Most people who are not in the business of comparing cams, will, when they watch that short, bother about the story, how fun it is and won't realize anything about dynamic range. At one point a certain amount of headache should justify a big return, and I'm not sure this is the case with the BMPCC or any other BMC in the hands of 99% of the people who buy it.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Why waste your time then talking about camera's, start your own thread about anything content related. You won't convince me I made a bad choice buying the camera, I"m sure I will have fun with it, not while shooting weddings, for that I have other camera's, including a GH4, but to waste my free time and harddrive space on raw footage from that little box with a sensor. :)

Also, that video you linked to, what I find most impressive is it was written in an hour and shot in 1,5 day, something I would not be able to do, but that's the only good part about it, the only thing I see when I start watching this is overexposed, out of focus images and bad sound and that made me stop watching after 2 minutes, this is not exactly a good example of what the gh4 can do and since I didn't feel like watching it completely the content was also not able to convince me either.

Re: Bmpcc sold at 50% discount, is it still worth buying?
 

Whether I shoot in Raw or ProRes or whatever, I spend about the same amount of time grading so the only difference to me is how big an SSD I need to stuff in the BMCC (or how many .5TB SSD's). I already have several fast computers because I also do CGI and some of the renders run for a week or two on two or three machines - in fact I have my eye on a couple of used12-core MacPro's to add to the "local render farm"

Image quality is very important to me (maybe because I'm really a Large Format film stills photographer branching out into video in my waning years.) I shoot classical music performances so the "content" that I have to depend on to keep people glued to their seats is the music itself - I just have to be sure that the audio and video (in that order of course!) enhance rather than detract from the performance.

And yes, I'm crazy enough to spend hours grading footage of our cat!

Sort of way out in left field topic wise, but the only TV we watch is Japanese NHK via satellite, and they have a series running where some retired Japanese cameraman travels around the world filming cats on the street. Greece, Turkey, Italy - just cats! How he gets such great cat footage is a mystery to me. Cats on walls, under cars, on windowsills. Every time I point a camera at our cat she runs away or pounces on the camera!