Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Exactly Glen. This is definitively not a run and gun camera. No hot shoe, mic mount etc. or quick to grab buttons. This is a film making tool and if it was full sensor it would be the Scarlet or new 5D that everyone wanted, but better...with the codecs and audio and 5" screen and peaking.

Is there a full sensor version in the works I wonder?

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

I do a lot of music promos and high speed is essential. I could deal with that crop factor, but frame rates let these cameras down for me. Even if they lowered the res to offer 240 at 720p, or 120 at 1080, it's something. I think if you're only offering 30fps max in these modern times, you're effectively turning your back on the entire music video making industry.

I like the BMD offering a lot at that price point though, and that footage looks lovely. I didn't see anything wrong with the low light clips at the skatepark either. But it's a 'no' based on slow frame rates.

The FS700 is still out on top for my requirements at the moment.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

High framerates may just be one of those things we still have to pay top dollar for. In the low cost market we always have some kind of tradeoff. At one stage it was not being able to get away from DV. Then it was 24p and so forth. I do agree that at least 60p would have been nice but if that is the only negative then that is more of a creative negative and one that a lot of people could learn to deal with. Given the fact that $3,000.00 could barely give us the option to record a 4:2:2 8bit image via HDMI or SDI I think this is pretty darn slick.

This camera may not have all of the options for everybody but for those who want about as high of quality 2.5k images as you can get your hands on at 24p or 30p then this camera will really shake up the industry.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

i think it's already a very good start for BMD into the camera field. At $3k, this will really make all other manufacturer headache. And this is just the first camera to test the market's response.

Looking forward to see the next version

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Since this is their first effort, I congratulate BlackMagic.

I'm not too sure about this camera now that I've read the specs. A few questions:

1. 16mm sensor design - Most people with low budgets switched to DSLRs for the FF and Super 35-like DOF characteristics. If that is the case, the T3i and GH2 offer more value for money, doesn't it?

2. Poor audio connectivity - The BlackMagic website harps on about how quality cannot be compromised, and yet they compromise on one-half of any production's quality - it's audio. I for one would have welcomed a couple of XLR inputs for an additional $1K. Why did they overlook this fact?

3. On-screen controls only - I'm a button guy, so I don't know if this is a good thing for run and gun work. Why no buttons, at least for critical work?

4. Integrated battery only - So how many minutes can I shoot before losing charge? The specs claim 90 minutes. What do I do for a feature film, if I have to wait for 2 hours in between recharges? Do I need to hire a generator just for this camera?

5. Poor form-factor that will be front heavy with EF zooms. Unlike DSLRs, there isn't a way to handhold this camera without a rig - not a single grip on camera as far as I can see. The optional grip accessory has two handles - I'm confused on why they didn't include a shoulder rig so the videographer can use one hand for focus control? Their marketing images show a follow focus system.

6. If the sensor is only 16mm, why is the mount specifically EF? What's the point? By having smaller mounts one can technically use lighter glass to reduce the effect of the poor form factor. Is this going to be a future upgrade/downgrade?

I hope they can get a $5K model that will definitely put most questions (and cameras) to rest.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

I guess it depends on how you define 'value for the money'. They are both certainly cheaper, but you're getting significantly better quality just in terms of the compression options. You also get software that purchased on it's own would cost more than either of those cameras. You won't get the super shallow DOF (except maybe with specialty lenses like the Noktor) but you do have the ability to get shallow-enough DOF if you want to. It's still a significantly larger sensor than any traditional video camera format.

They didn't - it includes balanced, mic/line switchable 1/4" audio inputs. XLR probably didn't fit into the form factor well, and you can still connect them with a simple adapter cable without any loss in quality. Doesn't mention phantom power at all though.

Because there are far, far more EF mount lenses out there than any smaller format... and it's easy to adapt most other mounts to it. I'm sure they'll consider other mounts in the future as the camera takes off, but considering the market this is targeted at it's likely many purchasers will use it with the Canon lenses they are currently using with their DSLRs.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Agreed, m43 would have been great at least as an option - much more suited to the form factor and sensor size (and Panny/Oly are putting out some lovely, tiny, and relatively inexpensive m43 primes). And there's a pretty large Gh1/Gh2 fan base that are prime candidates for this camera.

But I'm sure Evan's right, a larger share of the target market are likely to already own EF mount lenses so it's an easier transfer, even if less than optimal for the camera.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

In my opinion, this camera is a step in the right direction for many reasons, cost obviously being a significant one.

Shallow Depth of Field is not a requirement for telling a great story. There are have been many 16mm and SD Video Shorts/Features over the years which did not suffer audience appeal or success because there was no shallow depth of field.

For Feature/Narrative/Short work, even at low budgets, most crews record sound double system, so 1/4" on camera audio inputs are adequate for a scratch track or even decent audio recording, if double system can't be done.

The footage is promising, and I can easily see this camera being adopted by someone who doesn't care what tool is used to tell his or her story, provided the quality of the image is there.

This model seems to be an excellent way to step into the fray and create a user base from which further feedback could be gleaned to possibly launch another slightly more expensive model which addresses any shortcomings this model may possess - I don't see much to realistically complain about until I see more footage, and then edit/grade it's raw files.

For my part, I would love to see a line of cameras with this being the first, and a healthy array of accessories to outfit the base camera for whatever need arises.

Well done BMD: a Camera and Resolve for under 3K. That is quite the accomplishment. If I had the cash laying around, I would order one asap.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Jumping Jehosephat, that is right up my alley.
Still salivating over the FS700 or the KineRaw high speed potential though.
These here are crazy times.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

I suspect that high speed frame rates are out of the question for bandwidth issues. There was a comment about needing ~5 MB per frame. To support 60 fps you'd need around 300 MB / second (that's bytes not bits) throughput, and I'm not sure how many SSDs would sustain that.

I'd love to see a version with the P+S Technik IMS mount on it. That's that the Ikonoskop uses, and it can be adapted for Leica M, PL and various other things, as well as the more common Canon and Nikon lenses. It would probably bump the price up, but it'd be worth it.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

I'm surprised at the amount of people already asking for m4/3 mounts. This shows the demand is there and if this camera sells like I think it will, then the race is on to produce a good quality m4/3 mount.

IMS would have been nice, which Ikonoskop were smart enough to include as standard. But at the listed price of the BM, they've already included enough!

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

I'm not sure that would have been very smart on the part of BlackMagic. For one thing, how did they come to the conclusion that the target market uses EF mounts exclusively?

E.g. Let's take the 7D vs the XF105. The XF105 has better audio, bit rate, form factor, video options etc. Considering the addition of lenses, media and accessories, etc to bring them up to par, they both cost roughly the same, and as far as I can tell, the only major advantage the 7D has is the sensor size + interchangeable lens option.

So, even if we stay within Canon country, where does the BlackMagic camera fit? It does not top the 7D/T3i sensor in terms of DOF and does not take 18MP RAW images. It does not top the XF105 as far as audio or form factor is concerned, but one could make a case to use it rather than the XF105, only if one were shooting a major production that needed RAW or DNxHD, etc. The XF105 allows one to edit native and finish quickly.

Let's bring in the 5DIII. Considering the 5DIII can shoot exceptionally well in low-light, and shoot brilliant 22MP stills as well, with an intraframe codec to boot, would a cash-strapped indie filmmaker sacrifice all this for a small sensor camera only for RAW capability? I'm not sure. Maybe BlackMagic knows the answer. What were they hoping for? Someone who has invested in a 10-22mm or a 11-16 Tokina lens would be happy to switch their entire cinematic style and go no wider than 25mm? Or that someone who has invested in a 50mm 1.4 would be happy to see his/her FOV change to 125mm, and to get that 50mm back, he/she would have to buy a 20mm f2.8, and console themselves on the loss of two stops of light?

Even though BlackMagic have to be applauded for their effort, and I'm sure within the specifications the camera will be a great performer, I'm just not convinced enough to make a switch from my existing Canon gear, and as an independent filmmaker I would hope I'm their target audience.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

There is a misconnection in the industry that only XLR equals good audio and this is just not true at all. There is nothing wrong at all with balanced 1/4" audio, especially if you are talking short cable runs which will cover most mic setups that will be used with this camera. XLR is nice but it is not the end all to good audio. I would take a high quality mic plugged in via 1/8" over a average quality mic plugged in via XLR. 1/4" balanced is not the same as 1/8".

By target audience we mean a large user base. There is insane overly large user based of Canon DSLR users out there. Some how the Canon DSLR line really caught on with indy film makers and now there is a massive user base of EF lens out there who shoot video. That doesn't mean the EF lenses are better just that a lot of that glass is floating around out there. If BM had to pick one lens mount they clearly picked the one that would have the most impact on sales and help them grow the largest user base quickly. While the lens mount choice may not be the best for some of us we are in the minority compared to the amount of EF users out there.

As a M43 user myself dealing with crop factor is nothing new. Both the GH1 and GH2 have to deal with a 2x crop factor when adapting other lenses such as FD lor Nikon lenses. Others have tried to say this was unacceptable but a lot of M43 users have proved there is nothing wrong with this type of crop factor and have dealt with it with very little problems. Perhaps we have to be a bit more careful when shooting wide but it has not been the impossible situation some said it would be. So dealing with the crop factor on the BM camera will be a bit more difficult but no where near impossible.

Yes Raw is a pretty big deal. It's like shooting jpegs for years and suddenly being able to shoot raw photos. The amount of control one has over the entire image is insane. Some film makers realize that resolution is the least important image quality component and have always strived for the least amount of compression and the highest gradable range. This has been the holy grail of the GH1/GH2 camera hacks to minimize compression and attempt to bring back as much of the raw sensor image as possible.

This camera may not be for everybody but watch as a massive amount of indy shooters buy these cameras and start producing work at 2k that can only be touched by cameras costing 3x or 4x as much. The camera is only a tool but this camera is a tool that gives a lot of creative options to users instead of forcing them into a hole. Forget hacking of cameras. This camera is already hacked out of the box to give raw sensor data.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Maybe its time independent camera makers did undercut the greed of the big boys.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

John Brawley, the shooter of the Vimeo footage, advises that M4/3 and other mounts are on the to do list for BMD.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

That's good news! I'm sure BM are working on better features, and it's exciting to see them in the camera race.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Guess this thing has hit a nerve everywhere.

I get the feeling that when everyone has calmed down the the sensor size will be the most sobering factor, certainly to the legions of Canon DSLR users that have grown accustomed to the depth of field. If BM had designed it with a larger sensor then this would have been the new undisputed king of the hill. Interesting to see where it lands.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

In all our years as a camera sales and rental shop, we've never seen such demand for a camera overnight.

We were already getting requests for purchase for this camera yesterday when it was first announced.

And since there are so many Blackmagic resellers in the country, to think that we were only seeing a small portion of the requests boggles my mind.

That said - I need to throw in the obligatory plug for us and say we are taking per-orders for the camera, so drop by our website or give us a call for details and your place in line. We do happen to be one of the leading Blackmagic dealers and I assure you we will be stocking plenty of inventory on this piece!

Allan Barnwell
Omega Broadcast Group - Professional Video Sales, Rental & Services

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

The people who are at NAB say the BMD booth is a madhouse. This is what happens when a company listens to the wants and the needs of their user base. Look how many new customers BMD will gain - and how many Sony, Panasonic, Nikon, RED and especially Canon will lose.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

OK, so who's gonna make an 6 or 8mm EF-mount prime so this camera can capture a proper wide-angle shot? Maybe someone will come up with an adapter to let it use old cine C-mounts. And future owners better be buying those vintage lenses before they all become unobtainium.

Crop-factor aside, hats off to BlackMagic. This is fantastic news for the industry. I could say mean things about Red or Canon here, but I won't. And I feel really, REALLY bad for those who donated to the Kickstarter Bolex.

I disagree that this will cause even a ripple in the DSLR world, since 90% of those are sold to take stills, and the cine market compared to photo pros, semi-pros, wannabe pros, and soccer moms is almost negligible. But BlackMagic will no doubt be selling these babies as fast as they can make 'em.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

But only if you compare it to the full frame Canon cameras. t2i, t3i, 60d, 7d ect users have always had to deal with a crop factor. Sure it wasn't as high at 1.6 but it was still there. I feel at the end of the day the ability to shoot raw and close to uncompressed video at an insane quality level will win out over a sometimes useful creative feature. Also the GH2 which has a crop factor and level of depth of field very similar to the BM camera has shown that very creative results can still happen with that size of a sensor. M43 has been a quality powerhouse and so will this camera. Think of it as where the Gh2 wishes it could be with the hacks.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Canon may be a bit worried about body sales but this camera is also going to greatly help the sales on their EF lenses. I would argue that camera companies make a heck of a lot more on the lenses then they do the bodies. So while this may take a notch off Canon in terms of pride they can basically sit back and save their RD money and still watch the money roll in as people buy EF lenses in even larger record numbers. At least in the short term until BM supports other lens mounts.

If Panasonic was smart they would call BM right away and add support for M43 lenses to the camera when it ships in July. M43 is already more or less perfect for this camera since they have had to deal with a 2x crop factor. They have a lot of ultra wide lenses that would be a great fit. Then Panasonic could watch their lens sales fly through the roof. Well of course if they could actually produce them fast enough.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Sure, but the lens manufacturers stepped-up and made super-wide EF-S and DX lenses to give us a 90-100 degree FOV on APS sensors. My Tokina 11-16mm becomes a 25-37mm effective on a 2.3x sensor.

So no one will make a superwide 2.3x crop lens for an EF mount. I agree, the M4/3 mount makes a lot more sense for wide glass. Or c-mount or s-mount to take advantage of all of the S16mm cine lenses that will cover this sensor. This is a cine camera, so no one will care about autofocus and auto exposure of EF and M4/3 lenses.

OTOH, I'd be pleased as punch to mount up a 300mm IS lens (assuming IS will still work) to a 2.3x crop and go film wildlife.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

I had a dream last night... there I was rummaging through my old equipment closet. Stuff falling on my head. I had just received my new Black Magic camera, and I was trying to match it up with gear I had already.. and off the top shelf falls my old Letus 35mm adapter.... right on my head. There I was, trying to rig something up to work with my 35mm lenses again..... omg.... please help us all...... this is going to be fun...

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

The crop factor is a worry, but this fuss about XLR inputs on every camera really gets over done sometimes.
I personally have only seen one or two single system shoots in six years, from budgets zero and up. And then it was only abject desperation. In video schools single system is strictly 'Video 101' "in a pinch" and from then on it is multi-system all the way. Colour grading is also in the program usually (and you would have spent some time reading about how it was integral to proper film movie making anyway).
This is of course just me talking, but this camera's feature list lands it pretty much where every media school graduate filmmaker is right now as far as I can see and hits a number of previously expensive aspirations. They know who they are aiming at.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Hmmmmm....

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

I think the majority of folks attracted to this camera at this price point will be more inclined to purchase used EF mount lenses which there is a "boat load" of out there. I don't think Canon is going to be rewarded by a significant increase in lens sales.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

I heard it is more like 2.1x which is much closer to M43. If they would adapt M43 we would basically be all set. Trust me if this camera is a hit I bet you will start seeing some EF lenses pushed even wider. A camera that sells well is going to attract lens manufacturers. If Canon doesn't then 3rd party will for sure. There has already been word that BM has other mounts including M43 on their list of to do items. Nobody knows if and when that will happen for sure but BM is listening. EF was just the start to get the thing out there and in the hands of pros.

We also have to keep in mind these are not dumb full manual mounts. BM hopes to have full electronic control of the EF lenses including stabilization. They already have full iris control via the touch screen which is impressive. This isn't a $30.00 adapter from Ebay but a serious attempt at full native digital lens control which is not easy to do. If there were not so many darn digital lens mounts this could have been a lot easier. In the meantime there are oodles of EF users who will learn to adapt to the longer FOV and make due.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

The trouble with any manufacturer making a super-wide EF lens that only covers this 2.1-2.3x crop sensor from BlackMagic is that it wouldn't ALSO cover the APS-C sensor. 10mm seems to be about the affordable limit right now on the EFS-C.

Now... maybe they can make an EFS-BM mount (or something) to differentiate it, and prevent the chagrin of APS shooters mounting up what they THOUGHT would be a fab rectilinear 6mm UBERwide... and it just shows a big, dark circle. But I can't imagine there's enough BM shooters or sales to justify the R&D. Would LOVE to be proven wrong by this, though.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

On top of this, I think that the more attractive EF lenses to use with this camera are going to come from Tokina, Sigma and Tamron anyway.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

I am amazed at what BMD has done. This is the big story this year out of NAB. Out of seemingly nowhere, a 'dark horse' has BLOWN BY the pack and produced a cine camera for $3K with an amazing feature list AND also includes the proven Resolve software to take those 12bit raw files and produce a cinematic look.

Is it perfect? Of course not. I still think RED, Sony and Canon are producing better images, but at 5X-20X more money, I think they should, don't you? As others have pointed out, this camera is really a bit difficult to label, strange even, but it has already moved the ground under the industry's feet - that's for sure - AND we're at V.1 here folks. The future is bright at BMD.

My hat's off to NAB's dark horse winner, Black Magic Design, who in my opinion deserve the award for Best New Product and best DEAL of NAB 2012.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Agreed. Very well stated.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

No offense intended Jacques but you couldn't know if RED or anyone else is producing better images because we haven't seen any comparisons or any footage from a finished camera.

All that exists now is a little home movie footage shot on an early pre-production model with a sensor that they say wasn't even calibrated yet.

So I agree with your post but I wouldn't assume anything about the quality of the footage until they have some real scenes to show. While the camera itself isn't meant to rival a RED or Alexa, the footage it produces may very well.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

I'm pretty sure that I read that you can attach an external battery pack. It looks like they "glued" a Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 to a lens! The Shuttle also has an integrated battery and a 12v plug for charging or using a battery pack.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Cant remember where I saw the video but it was an interview with Simon Westland of BMD and yes, the camera can be powered by an external battery and get this...the thunderbolt port if you are tethered to your laptop! The internal battery limitations are moot for me!
The wide angle lens is something of a concern but if I can get to a 28mm (FF DSLR equivalent) I will be happy as that will cover my green screen for full body shooting!
It also has iris control for the Canon lenses which is awesome!
And the fact that I shoot air shows on occasion makes the crop factor very useable. I have a 70-200 f2.8L USMII with 2x extender III waiting to become an 800mm??? Ha Ha Ha!!!
Can't wait!

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

I think there is a mistake in their specs. ZF is Zeiss designation for Nikon compatible lenses, while ZEis for CAnon. Does anybody know if it is a mistake or they mean something else?

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

<<No offense intended Jacques but you couldn't know if RED or anyone else is producing better images because we haven't seen any comparisons or any footage from a finished camera.>>

None taken Jim. You are correct that we have yet to see what the *delivered product* can do. That said, my tri-corder tells me that the smaller sensor (rumored as Panasonic) will not be quite as state of the art as Red's or Canons larger and latest offerings. And after all, this is BMD's very first camera. Experience matters.

At the CML party, only an hour ago, one industry expert offered the following cautions.

1) The power input is not a locking plug. True that, but not a deal killer for me.
2) The HDSDI BNC, as is typical with BMD, is motherboard mounted and very prone to fail. This complaint has a long history as a major weakness, and yet, has never been addressed.
3) BMD support historically has been problematic on all levels.

The conversation turned to AJA vs BMD. AJA video has a great and well deserved rep. of being solid and reliable vs. BMD. We both have high praise for AJA.

Next question: So when does AJA video come out with their camera :-D

The times they are a changin'!

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Just read a report by someone who's had a play with the Blackmagic camera and rolling shutter may be an issue. I guess how big will depend on the type of productions you do, but it's something to take into consideration.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Retaining the award that they won in 2011 with the HyperDeck Shuttle which didn't quite live up to the initial jaw dropping enthusiasm when considered in the cold light of day. This may also be true of this product that on paper looks sensational for the price & unlike Scarlet (which is resembles in many ways) it looks like there is a strong likelihood that they will deliver on time at the promised price & specification.

Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!
 

Wouldn't the Bowen 8mm/f3,5 lens be an answer to wide angle lens for this camera? It would equal to 20mm at the full frame. Quite wide, insn't it? I mean, it is not a L lens, but still... at only 400 $.