Right, AVC h.264 from Vegas must recompress. DVDA will accept AVCHD from Vegas without transcoding if you select one of the standard templates, but it limits your bitrate and frame rate choices.
I agree. Ironically, the hack causes the BD-5/BD-9 to identify itself as AVCHD so that when presented it plays. It's enough confusion that some people don't know what to call it. True BD-5/BD-9 is on BD-ROM and doesn't exist.

My problem is only with Samsung that I know of, and it was the 2500, which is a current model. The hybrid BD-5/BD-9's have the same compatibility as regular AVCHD disks.

It's not an insurmountable obstacle to the Mac user, but I agree 100% we're firmly nudged toward expensive Blu-ray burners and media, what a surprise!

I agree. The cost is not cheap although the hack itself is easy, and I would not encourage people to spend money this way except,

1.) I put the guide in the Sony Vegas forum where people presumably already own the product,

and

2.) The Vegas/DVDA workflow has unique benefits for XDCAM users and Sony products (Surprise!)I don't have anything better, so my viewpoint is limited but I'm warming up to Vegas and DVDA. I'm really stunned with the quality of the DVDA AVC encoder. They should have put that into Vegas.

Quote:
It seems we are being forced into a burn BD disc world. Which is fine for PC owners, but is a real problem for Mac users!

It's not an insurmountable obstacle to the Mac user, but I agree 100% we're firmly nudged toward expensive Blu-ray burners and media, what a surprise!

With a Mac even going to BD has it's problems. On the Toast forum folks report menu and chapter issues when burning with Blu-ray burners.

"True BD-5/BD-9 is on BD-ROM and doesn't exist."

You are correct -- it was a spec pushed by Warner Brothers for releasing shorts on DVD-ROM. So any player that operates correctly is going to reject BD-R discs with BD-5/BD-9.

And, it seems the newer the firmware, the more likely this will occur. Unless, the software company is smart enough to set the correct bit(s). In this case -- at least for a while -- your discs may be played. BD-ROMs have a hardware flag that can't be faked so your hack can be broken at any time without warning.!

AVCHD was intended only for camcorder video, not exporting finished "movies." So any software company I suspect is going to find it hard to license AVCHD. (Of course, Smart GOP rendering might be acceptable because the software is only outputting the AVCHD that came from the camera.

I don't know how they generate FX and graphics without a license. Perhaps these Taiwan companies are operating without a license. In which case future play firmware may look for bits ONLY set by hardware AVCHD encoders and prevent the playback of FX and graphics.

Bottom-line, I don't think long-term that burning to anything less than BD is safe.

------------------

Unless Apple re-writes OS X to meet DRM they cannot have BD players -- hence no Apple BD burners, hence no BD support in Studio or iDVD. Moreover, neither Toast 9 or Toast 10 support Chapter marks from FCP. Plus, I'm not sure Toast will encode 5.1 from Apple's SoundTrack.

It seems Mac users are going to have to buy a PC with BD burner to create "pro-quality" BD discs.

This is an interesting discussion. Thank you very much to those who are sharing their experience here. Larry, I really appreciate all the info you've posted about the various editing/authoring tools in this and other threads.

I am disappointed to hear all the difficulties and lack of standards regarding AVCHD on DVD media. I'm assuming that the main objective here is to package AVCHD video into a convenient format which can offer a DVD-like playback experience (i.e. menus, chapters, etc.) on a TV. From the posts in this thread, I gather that burning true BD disks for playback on a BD player is currently the only way to reliably accomplish that objective using optical disks.

This makes me wonder if optical disks are really the best solution? Perhaps it would be easier to author electronic files for playback on media players like the PS3, "WD TV HD Media Player", HTPC, etc. There are some formats that can support HD video with menus (at least in theory). The big questions here are what format(s) would work best, what authoring tools are available, and what playback devices are available? I would appreciate any thoughts on this from the experts. I hope this is sufficiently on-topic as long as we limit the discussion to formats that support menus. Thanks.

Unfortunately, no. BD-R/RE media isn't recognized as Blu-ray even by the Blu-ray Association. You are not allowed to add the Blu-ray logo. The BD-Logo is basically used to communicate to the consumers that the products having BD-Logo is complying with BD Specification and compatible with other BD products. It's been established even BD-R/RE is not compatible with all players.

For AVCHD, the situation is worse. Just an anecdote, I was in the big box store, and of all the Blu-ray players, only the Sonys, Panasonics and LG stated AVCHD compatibility. Those that didn't, were the Pioneer, the Samsungs, Sharp, Insignia.

There's more than one objective. Even without menus, getting your content to play as soon as the disk is inserted on every player, being able to use up-to-date audio and video codecs, satisfactory bit rates, getting it to output at native 24p, are important objectives to me. How about ink jet printable artwork and covers? How many disks with menus say Memorex? More than we'd care to admit I suspect. It sort of wrecks the whole professional theme.

To me, Blu-ray has far bigger problems than people trying to play AVCHDs with menus. The internet is abuzz with people ripping whole catalogs of Blu-ray titles. The industry response is to change the key inside the players forcing owners to upgrade firmware to play the latest titles. That just isn't going to sell players. And by the looks of it, I don't think Blu-ray will be adopted by the mainstream.

For a while, regular ole DVD will remain king. And if you want your HD content to be seen in all its glory, it is incumbent on you to supply it in whatever format your customer can use, whether optical, magnetic or flash. The content must be compelling. There is no need to limit the discussion to formats with menus, because with some machines HD content or menus will be mutually exclusive.

You mentioned the WD TV HD Media Player. I have one of these. It's much more format friendly than any Blu-ray.

Agree but Blu-ray itself is not long-term enough of a format to worry about, my $0.02.

My 2 pfennigs.....

AVCHD disk authoring has been a frustrating process for most of us in one way or another, as this thread and other threads have demonstrated. The software is buggy for PCs, hard to find for Macs, runs slowly, and produces disks which may or may not play depending upon the specific BluRay player.

Despite all of this, it is the only current inexpensive way to distribute HD content to family and friends while still preserving full resolution, since web methods and other methods are either expensive, lack image quality, or are very inaccesible to most people.

I take a bit of encouragement from the fairly low cost players now available which truly do properly support and play AVCHD, and consider them a reasonable solution until something better comes along. I too mourn the loss of HD DVD, having many hundreds of authored disks here which will fade into oblivion now that the format is officially dead. Such may eventually become the fate of AVCHD disks as well, as the manufacturers have managed to add such market confusion and incombatibility that even technically advanced users like us are bewildered by all of the caveats.

I personally do not put too much stock in the transcoding to wmv or DiVX or other formats, and feel they add another uncertain layer with image quality degredation to the mix. AVCHD is inherently a very nice looking and good sounding format, and I dearly wish it was a universally supported format with more software and set-top players. The fact that it retains the navigation features of conventional DVD Video makes it particularly appealing to me. Only time will tell if any of this current AVCHD disk support will be around for a few years or not.

Larry

Sony continues to push their AVCHD camcorders and the ability to make menued discs on normal BD5/9 discs using their supplied software or the stand alone disc writers. The Sony Motion Browser software is slow but does work. I have no experience of the stand alone writer but assume they work too. The latest camcorders can even make playlists for burning etc. So I think HD content on BD5/9 is here for a while though personally I use DB-R/RE for longer programs and just backup files on normal discs. I only tried the Browser software when I first got the SR7 a couple of years ago and haven't bothered since I got my SR11 I either just copy the files or use DVDA 5.0 to author Bluray discs.
Ron Evans

I do agree, AVCHD seems alive and well on Sony and Panasonic players at least, but a problem is the falling prices of players like the Insignia, Funai and Sylvania which at $160 have much appeal for people who buy into the format for the movies, and there may not be a way for them to watch your collaborations on them.

Hmm, I must admit my ignorance here because I didn't know AVCHD supported DVD-like navigation features. This makes it more interesting to me. How does this work? The m2ts container doesn't support menus, so I guess the disk format must use a collection of files like DVD? Another dumb question: when we talk about "AVCHD disks" in this context, does that imply red laser disks, or can they also be on blue laser disks?

I have read that the Samsung BD-P2500 supports AVCHD, so hopefully they will be another manufacturer that supports the format going forward.

The Matroska (mkv) container format also seems to have some interesting potential. I believe it is capable of containing native AVCHD video and audio streams (i.e. without transcoding) along with navigation features in a single file. I don't think the software support is up to speed yet, but down the road it could be an option for playback on media players like the WD TV.

There is NO alternative to BD because it is already is world-wide and growing rapidly in installed-base. It grows cheaper everyday. The entire movie industry has no choice but to keep pushing BD for as long as it takes. The bad economy only adds time to make cheaper components and increase the size of the library -- which is still way too small. There is no alternative for those buying HDTVs because upconverting SD for 50" (and larger) HDTVs is absurd.

Streaming FullHD at 60i is not possible. And, FullHD at 60p will be a fantasy for years. (Needed for 3D.) Try streaming even 720p24 at your lake cabin or for those who live in the country. Streaming simply won't work in the USA until the entire infrastructure is updated. And, the more streaming/downloading that occurs, the more inadequate any network becomes. If you make wedding videos, are you going to have an extended family streaming the wedding video? You want to provide discs.

ATV is dead -- twice.

AVCHD exists ONLY when generated by an AVCHD camcorder. Which is why it is not produced by ANY professional application. Home brew AVCHD discs play only because BD player firmware hasn't locked them out -- YET. And, because Sony hasn't sued the companies yet.

BD-5/BD-9 is for BD-ROM only. It's not playable on the largest installed based of BD players -- the PS3.

You mean they MARKET this possibility. Now go read the Sony DVDARCH manual. They point out these discs will NOT play on the PS3. No PS3 playback -- no real solution.

The stand-alone disc writers simply burn the AVCHD data from the attached camcorder. They are passive.

The Sony Motion Browser software is not a real NLE. It is an AVCHD splicer.

The solution is so simple -- buy a BD burner. Why are folks avoiding the obvious and looking for tricks?

I own several BD burners already. What problem do you think they solve? There are still players that won't play the disks.

Steve
I am not avoiding buying a Bluray burner. I have one and that is my solution for output for all my HD video from SR11 and FX1. I agree with you why bother with DVD5/9. I was just pointing out what I perceived to be Sony's marketing push. I also believe Sony Motion Browser is an NLE, not a very good one, but it does have the capability to perform simple editing of AVCHD video and output to both AVCHD and MPEG2 with menus. I have done this before I got a Bluray burner and they play on my PS3. Just as advertised by Sony. Are they technically a BD5 or 9 ? Don't know, but they do play in the PS3 with menus.
Since Authoring with DVDArchitect 5 I have not even tried to burn to other than a Bluray disc so really cannot say if it would work or not and really have no interest in doing so.

Ron Evans

I don't know what burners or software you own, but there's no reason why BD-R discs would not play on all BD players (other than the first couple that came to market many years ago). As long as it makes BDMV movies.

"I also believe Sony Motion Browser is an NLE, not a very good one, but it does have the capability to perform simple editing of AVCHD video and output to both AVCHD and MPEG2 with menus."

I never bothered to load the Sony Browser, but I doubt you'll find much in the way of normal NLE functions: video filters, color correction, etc. As I said a "splicer" but not exactly even iMovie or Pinnacle whatever. And, as you said it is slow, which isn't exactly a positive point.

My point is if you shooting HD and spend $1000 for a camcorder, the least you can do is spend another $1000 on Vegas Pro 8c and a BD burner.

PS: Vegas Pro 8c is a major upgrade of Vegas. It, and DVD Arch 5, will do everything: 5.1 sound and menus. And, you know it will work on the PS3. It's perfect to run under Bootcamp. Just move ProRes 422 or MJPEG from Apple NLEs to Vegas.

How come you know so much about Sony Motion Browser if you have never loaded it? You happen to be correct in that its intended use is to assemble a clip list and transfer to a disc for viewing( with menu) and consequently have a backup from the camera. NLE to me is anything that allows editing in a non linear way. The Sony software does this. IF we are going to get into the actual functions that are included in various editors that is something else all together and will lead us into deciding whether one NLE is actually an NLE based on a person point of view. I happen to own Edius 5, Vegas 8.0C and Vegas 8.1, Adobe CS3, and several other programs like DVDLab 2.0, Ulead Moviefactory, Womble, Pinnacle, Nero 8, TMPGenc Authorworks 4, etc all used for different reasons that they are good at. Depending on the particular function I choose I could eliminate most from the list. It just so happens that the particular useful functions are different for the different products hence the value in owning a number of them. Sony Motion Browser has its place. I don't use it to burn or author discs but it is used to catalog all my AVCHD videos and does so very well by folder date as well as a calendar view. Of no use for the projects I do but invaluable for the family videos and allows an immediate selection and playback of both stills or video and a very good reason to use it to transfer video or stills to the PC.

Ron Evans

I can't speak for other people and their reasons, but can only offer my own thinking and rationale:

Do I really want to spend nearly $10 for a single BD-R blank disk when the content I wish to burn fits on a 20 cent disk?

Do I really want to spend 20 minutes burning a disk when I can burn a red laser disk in one third the time?

Do I really have 25GB of content to fill the BD-R disk from my AVCHD camcorder, and do I really need 3 hours of recording time?

My answers are no, no, and no......

Having spent $450 for a BluRay burner some time ago, I could also add a legitimate 4th question:

Do I really want to spend hundreds of dollars for a burner when I can be a superb 20X red laser burner for $29?

And Sony has added yet the further complication that new profiles have been defined and added over several years now, making the cautious purchaser of a BluRay burner and player properly ask the question:

Is today's purchase of a BluRay burner going to work in the next version of BluRay and beyond?

In all of the above considerations, I am very willing to consider other solutions first, particularly if they work well, are inexpensive, burn quickly, and deliver literally identical image quality.

Larry

Glad to help others here Bob and also learn a lot from others as well. As I imagine you may have gathered, AVCHD disks are a standard, menued, red laser format which provide navigation much the same as standard DVDs but play full 1920 by 1080 content. As this and other threads have mentioned, the players as well as some of the AVCHD authoring software are still incomplete, unstable, or both, and thus the disks being created may or may not play on your specific player. It is encouraging that quite a few software NLEs permit authoring of menued AVCHD disks on the PC, and that both set-top players from several manufacturers and also software players from several PC software vendors also play these menued disks properly.

Larry

I didn't load it because I knew it wasn't something I would ever use for editing and burning. Sony has long given away these little apps -- think DVGate.

Bottom-line -- the software that generate AVCHD discs -- all have three things in common: they edit AVCHD natively (SLOW), they cost about $100 (buggy), and they aren't real-time (SLOW again).

And, the Sony "Browser" is a step below them in functionality. Even you say you don't use it for authoring.

I'd jump on AVCHD DVDs if Sony, Canopus, or Apple had applications that supported it. For example, iDVD. I think these big companies know Sony can turn-off the ability to playback any AVCHD video that was encoded by software.

PS: does the Sony Browser support anything beyond splicing existing AVCHD files? For example, titles, video transitions, video filters, and photos to video. Maybe I'm wrong to worry.

I was at Frys yesterday and saw a 15 pack of Memorex 25GB BD for $60. Not bad $4 each. I thought they were still $20 each.

Steve
Sony Motion Browser is very simple. It allows one to set a main title and can automatically arrange menus based on each clip( start and stop) or day( uses date info) that clips were taken. There is a very limited choice of backgrounds and a choice of whether output is AVCHD or MPEG. Thats about it. So as I said earlier I like it for cataloging all the files etc but do nothing else with it. Editing is done with native files in Vegas for family video and since projects are usually over two hours these files are converted to Canopus HQ and edited with the FX1 tracks in Edius. Output either HQ or HDV from Edius and into Vegas for final audio mixing, setting of markers with names that will be used in DVD Architect for Bluray output. I use the HQ file in TMPGenc for SD encode as I think it has the best encode. AC3 audio from Vegas timeline is used for both discs.
Yes disc prices are coming down. Lately I have used a 5 pack of Verbatim at $45 Can( about $7 US each) and bought some 50G BD-RE TDK for $20Can. I used one of these to backup our Australian holiday of 5 1/2hours of SR11 video and 500 stills!!!!

Ron Evans

No doubt the cost of blank media for BD will continue to fall. I paid 6 bucks apiece for blank DVDs not too many years ago (and most of them are no longer playable due to dye contrast reduction / bleaching).

Steve's experience at Frys is the lowest I have heard of so far, and is very encouraging. I will eventually move to BD-R but not until it makes better sense economically, particularly since virtually all of my disks are 4 GB or less of content anyway.

Given the tiny spot size and 5 times as many bits per square inch of dye, I also have very legitimate concerns about BD-R longevity as well.

I have no good technical reason to believe that a surface which can't retain 4.7GB of data in an optical dye for many years will do any better or even as well when 25 GB of data is written on the same surface area.

But who knows........

Larry

How about a variation on the theme, AVCHD and Menus on USB flash drives? It works on the PS3.

Why would you want to? How about VC1 video? HD Audio? Subtitles? 24p?

I would point out that the PS3 will not send 24hz output to a supporting TV except in the Blu-ray mode, which means your files can't playback native 24hz from the internal hard drive or flash media, except that now there is another hack.

I've tried it with the PS3 using its latest firmware 2.60. If you don't care about menus, you can follow the steps in this link.

If you want menus, you have to combine the above hack with this guide .

Let's assume you wanted to play back a 16Gb 1080/p24 project with 24hz output on the PS3. You could always just burn an expensive Blu-ray disk, or a rewritable at 2x speed if you have the patience.

Or you could use TSmuxer and AVCHDme to copy the folders to a USB flash drive and be previewing your collaboration in just minutes.