I would apreciate you to do a test using the sheervideo codec for capture. I read about it in the website and it has a data rate about 40 MBPS, about 3:1 compression and it would be a good test to a two disk raid in sata. they promiss a fast performance, and a lossless quality, so your system would be nice to prove if it is usefull.

thanks

While Sheer can produce a 3:1 compression, the source image would need to be very low noise otherwise we will get a much higher data rates, more typical is 2:1 but sometimes you get even less compression. The is an issue with lossless compression, some source images are just no very compressable.

Regarding MJPEG compression, all DCT compression can experience blocking, the is no only a inter frame compression artifact.

1. Has anyone found a mini-ITX board with SATA II AND RAID0 ?
2. Can I add GigE and Firewire 800 :-) to requirements ?
3. PCI-X riser can be used..Or PCI-X extension cable.
4. A comparison of mini-ITX boards
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/general-hardware-discussion/106509-core-duo-core-2-duo-mini-itx-boards.html
5.

When you say PCI-X, do you actually mean PCI Express? PCI-X is something completely different.

PCI-Express not PCI X

anmoi, this aopen might interest you. Sata and raid0. http://usa.aopen.com/products_detail.aspx?Auno=2211

Thanks. I did look at it, as a few people mentioned it on this thread. However, it takes a 19V battery with consumption of about 90Watts. I'm trying to find a more power-efficient solution.

hi all

great great post i just looking all over to built system like this

i have one big problem i know s!@@$t about computers components

if you pleas pleas sand me a list of all the parts needed to built a system like this

were do i buy small housing like Kevin has for the motherboard

what else do i need (CPU ram graphic card???)
is the hard disk is external what hard disk i need sata? raid?

as you see i am lost pleas help

thanks

I would like to ask David CTO if Cineform is developing a portable solution to sell bundled with the Neo. thanks

A message from a friend of mine :-

>>>>
But I have found out something quiet interesting. The Asus EeePC $200 900mhz Linux subnotebook, has an mini PCI-e card slot.

http://unicap-imaging.org/unicap_eeepc.htm

My desire is more for 720p capture, which this would more suit. An hard disk would need to be put in an thin case under the unit with an Intensity and extra power supply (for the card). There is an new version next April, on an better chip-set (hopefully better processor for compression).


I think the EeePC, which incidentally has it's own webcam, might be suitable with an USB video capture dongle (those capture from tape to record to disk things).

>>>>

I would like to ask David CTO if Cineform is developing a portable solution to sell bundled with the Neo. thanks

CineForm believes there is a market here and we intended to pursue it.

i think what everybody is dreaming about (like that cigarrete size talked here) is, at least:

if it is a computer:
1 - everything in one box
2 - no cables outside, just the hdmi
3 - one or two swapable 2.5 inch drive inside the box
4 - the touch screen lcd fited in the box with on off button to save battery
5 - a start stop with led indicator in a wire to put near camcorder
6 - swapable batteries inside the box

the better would be:
7 - no operating system if possible, or a simple menu with navigation
8 - like the firestore, of course, but a little bigger if needed...

Let´s give time to the time, and things happens...

You see, when you put together a 'dream' spec like that, you're essentially asking for one of these (http://www.wafian.com/HR-F1.htm) only a lot smaller and with potentially even more engineering required (no OS for instance).

That being the case you will inevitably end up with a product that costs more than the Wafian, despite the price difference between Intensity and Xena HLE.

nice machine! note wearable, but nice! but just for who have the money! for the low budget i think a solution like this wearable with a better enclosure will be ok when the itx motherboard starts to hold a 3.0 ghz core 2 duo processor keeping the dc power... or the wafian could start thinking about the low budget hv20 owners like the canon did when developed it... the time, and forum members, brings the answer...

thanks

Something to watch: VIA EPIA SN-Series Mini-ITX Mainboards (http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/mainboards/motherboards.jsp?motherboard_id=550)

It's supposed to have a PCI-Express x16 slot and four SATA II channels with native RAID support. Could be great for a simple mobile-capture box.

If you're looking to capture uncompressed, perhaps that board will work. However, it has an exceptionally weak CPU so any meaningful compression will not work.

I think I would rather have a Core 2 CPU and CineForm support and just the one SATA hard disk...

I've been following this thread for quite some time... with intentions of building a wearable computer system.

There's been a lot of talk about other codecs besides Cineform - BM MJPEG etc... why? Is there any benefit? Cineform seems (correct me if i'm wrong) to have the best cpu efficiency/quality ratio and has a decent data rate.

I have two questions:
1 - What IS the data rate capturing 1920x1080 8 bit Cineform? I know there are multiple "qualities"... is there a reference to a table somewhere with the different settings and data rates associated?
2 - Hard disks aside - Has it been confirmed yet if something like a Core 2 Duo T7600 (2.33) would be sufficient for a system like this?

Thanks for any info - great thread, Kevin.

Also, keep in mind realtime pulldown is not a requirement...

Dale

What about something like this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819111316

There's been a lot of talk about other codecs besides Cineform - BM MJPEG etc... why? Is there any benefit? Cineform seems (correct me if i'm wrong) to have the best cpu efficiency/quality ratio and has a decent data rate.

I have two questions:
1 - What IS the data rate capturing 1920x1080 8 bit Cineform? I know there are multiple "qualities"... is there a reference to a table somewhere with the different settings and data rates associated?
2 - Hard disks aside - Has it been confirmed yet if something like a Core 2 Duo T7600 (2.33) would be sufficient for a system like this?

Also, keep in mind realtime pulldown is not a requirement...

Dale

1) CineForm is internally 10 or 12-bit, even with 8-bit HDMI source, this is to reduce banding and improve the quality over regular 8-bit compressors. The data rate will also depend on the source, a soft low-noise source produces a much smaller bit-rate than an ultra sharp image with noise. Typically for today HDMI prosumer cameras, quality of High ranges from 10-16MB/s and Filmscan-1 15-20MB/s -- these are the recommend capture modes. Both modes will capture to modern 2.5" hard drives, or fast flash.

2) A T7600 2.33Ghz is on the edge for 1920x1080 at 60i, no issues for 50i and 24p/25p. T7700 should be fine.

3) Pulldown extraction makes the compression a little easier not harder.

Good deal - thanks a lot for responding.

Interesting that the pulldown makes it easier on the processor - guess that makes it doubly positive. (BTW, i did some test pulldowns with the HV20 and the trial of Prospect HD i believe, and it was doubling frames to make it progressive - is this normal?)

Seems to me then that a wearable computer system - Mini-ITX T76-7700, a couple gig of fast ram and a fast SSD drive and BM card would suffice for capture with the HV20 via HDMI @ 1920...

That is unless, someone (ahem... Cineform) with the knowledge and resources to do so could cut out all the unnecessary crap and create a box dedicated to the capture of HDMI sources using the Cineform codec. All streamlined and specialized... oooh bebe.

I know Colorspace(?) is creating something similar, but in the 10k range...

Anywho, great info - thanks a lot David.

Dale

Interesting that the pulldown makes it easier on the processor - guess that makes it doubly positive. (BTW, i did some test pulldowns with the HV20 and the trial of Prospect HD i believe, and it was doubling frames to make it progressive - is this normal?)

There is no doubling of frames. Don't be confused by the first 4-8 frames went may be off until the pulldown lock in--this is a live pulldown detection algorithm so it need a few frames to learn the cadence. Once it is locked you get a true 24p (i.e. 23.976p.)

That is unless, someone (ahem... Cineform) with the knowledge and resources to do so could cut out all the unnecessary crap and create a box dedicated to the capture of HDMI sources using the Cineform codec. All streamlined and specialized... oooh bebe.

So how much would the market want to pay for this device? Please answer thoughtfully as we are listening.

Gotcha - i haven't yet done any substantial testing with the realtime pulldown, but it definitely gives the confidence a boost hearing it from you... We're looking to employ the system i describe in a feature in the coming spring.

You pose an interesting question. I really don't know how other filmmakers/video nerds out there would value something like this, and i could see how the question of whether or not a profitable market exists is a huge one at this point. I definitely believe however, that (and i have the footage to prove it), that the HV20 combined with the correct capturing method and a properly used 35mil adapter can produce some outstanding footage.

We're really on the cusp of very HQ HD acquisition at an unprecedented cost point, and i definitely believe developing a waist-side capture device for HDMI (and whatever else) is the next step.

It's all about building awareness i guess...

But to stop rambling and actually answer your question, i would (and this is totally subject to change in the positive or negative depending on the product offering of course) be willing to shell out 2-4k.

Because the bounds of the capability of such a device are so broad, that's just a gander. There is a lot that could be done - oh the ideas.

Hope this helped - and i can't thank you enough... in this industry we spend so much time wishing we had the know-how to invent all the things we'd like to invent.. it's thanks to companies like Cineform that we get to realize some of our dreams...

(if anyone else is listening - an HV20 (andromadization) hack for 2k would be great!)

To bypass HDV and get some incredible 4:2:2 footage from any HDMI camera will be impressive. I paid $1300 for a Decklink HD, $300 for HD-SDI cables, and $500 for the nanoConnet .. all to get what we're talking about - mind you, I started my purchases before HDMI was an option on HD cameras (I orginally wanted to capture analog HD at uncompressed quality). Add to that a Mac Pro, RAID...

$$$ for something that's become much simpler in only a bit over a year's time. And with the Intensity card and good, fast codecs, much cheaper!

Given that a product like this would work with any HDMI cam, and for time to come, it'd be useful. Cineform's codec has staying power. How much $ for one though...

It'd have to really last, as things are moving so quickly.. a device like this would have to be able to handle resolutions up to 2k IMO. $1200-$1500 is all I'd be willing to spend at this point.. which is proably too little.

Someone will build a unit like this, regardless. Convergent Design's Flash XDR is too expensive for most of us pro-hobbyists, and I like the idea that using a computer like Kevin has allows you not to be locked into one Codec.

You have a good point, Robert.

Recording up to 2k or even 4k, or maybe having different models at different pricepoints might be a good idea.

Features like this are what would really be the deciding factor on where between 2-4k i would spend on this device...

Keep in mind though, it's the portability and convenience of combining the capture cards, the computers, etc.. into one device that's streamlined for that specific task that we're paying for as well. To me that's worth the cost of the hardware plus... really.

Think about it. For instance, we'll be shooting a feature film that will be taking place completely in the woods at night. We REALLY want to shoot full HD, that's NOT HDV. What are our options?

It's worth every penny IMO. Cool to think about...

Value.. how much for what it does. What we're talking about now is really meant for another thread, and I don't think it'd belong in the HV20 section either - by the time I'm ready to shoot 2k, there'll be some other el cheapo yet powerful camera or mod available! Thngs are moving faaast..

With the surge that alternative high-res sensor chips and 35mm adapters and the like have made, users are becoming more open to the idea of not buying a stock camera to fit their every need, and rather, go custom. Either buy small-business products, or make their own. Capturing 4:2:2 out of an HDMI port is right up there with customized options. Anyhow, it'd have to have a technical form factor that'd last, and of course, meet a price point we'd be willing to drop our bucks on. Price point is where I think the problem would lie.

I looked around at logic supply and found these motherboards - they have a matrix
http://www.logicsupply.com/matrix/mainboard&column1=40&column2=46&column3=39&column4=46

Some are Santa Rosa - and a couple have been discussed in this forum as well..

How would one set the CPU affinity ?
Have you tried playing around with setting CPU affinity?

The encoder may not be multi-threaded, but if you can set the capture process to one core and the encoder process to the other, you might be able to speed things up a bit more.

It's easy. Go into the Task Manager, right click on the relevant applications and do it there.

However, it is highly unlikely that this will help performance that much - if at all - as Windows isn't bad at allocating tasks independently and in this case, the encoder will be doing the vast majority of the work any way.

What Richard said. It probably won't help much, but Dumb Things can happen.

Make sure you have minimal other applications running in the foreground and/or background. Last thing you want is to have two instances of the encoder process bouncing around between processors and around memory because a third application is triggering context switches.

http://www.ieiworld.com/en/product_IPC.asp?model=NANO-9453
It has PCI-e mini. And is little over 3,5"HDD size. PC/104 is industrial PCI.

Here at bottom of this page is adapter PCI-e mini to PCI-e x1
http://www.adexelec.com/extenders.htm
This way you can probably connect Intensity. (This also enables Laptops to do this)

Motherboard cost around 330$.

Hope this helps someone.

[QUOTE=Kevin Kondra;723318]Hello Everyone,

The cpu, T7200 with 667 MHz RAM, has enough power to record 60i without dropping frames using BM MJPEG. The data rate seems to be 13 MB/s. What most people may not know is that BM supplies a second MJPEG codec that isn't used with their recording app and has selectable quality values. Upping the bit rate to 20MB/s makes a noticeable difference in visual quality. They number used is similar to JPEG compression quality numbers, where 100 is supposed to be lossless, and 80 is default. 20 MB/s is 92 on the scale.



Hi Kevin and one and all.This is an intriguing thread.I am new to this forum. I am an indie musician who would like to record music videos on a budget and something you wrote caught my eye. I have built my own intensity capture station. HC3 sony Cam @ 1920 X 1080i - HDMI - (Magma expressbox - Intensity) - Laptop Computer. My laptop is not fast enough to encode in the Medium or high settings of Cineform NeoHD ( Core2duo 1.8 Ghz - drops frames consistently ) but handles the BM M-jpeg just fine with plenty of CPU in reserve.I would like to get rid of the fine artifacts that are present in the BM codec and clearly absent in Cineform.If the quality is noticeably better at higher data rates, then that would save me having to upgrade my new laptop.I was wondering where you acquired the second codec that allows quality settings to be adjusted and what capture software you use it with.It would be awesome if I could up the rate to 20 MB/sec.Your help on this is much appreciated.
Kind regards.
Henry

David,
As was mentioned in another thread ("Intensity Capture Station") I think before you make a full "capture station" it would be best to have an ExpressCard version of the Intensity card. Maybe you can talk to the BM folks about this. Or is this already in the works?

Surely an Intensity ExpressCard would effectively put the kibosh on the commercial viability of a standalone capture station? Any standalone capture station? By the time such a product hit the market, I could well believe that quad core laptops with 500gb hard disks would be readily available, making a DIY solution far more preferable for the budget conscious.

The Magma box proves that the PCIe and ExpressCard technology are essentially one and the same so you'd think it would be an ExpressCard Intensity would be an easy product to make. However, when I contacted BMD about it, I got the impression it really wasn't on their radar - definitely not in the short term, any way. The only technical issue I can see is the lack of power on the ExpressCard port, which might require a large scale redesign of the silicon.

Pretty dumb if you ask me, given that's exactly what everyone in these threads essentially needs to have their dreams come true for recording with the Cineform codec on the go.

When we are thinking of a capture station, we are thinking of a Firestore sized device that encodes HDMI directly to CineForm, that is much more convenient than using a laptop in mobile camera acquisition.

I think its a killer product idea that will sell very well today and in the future, given the long run of 1080p HDMI camcorders that will undoubtably continue to proliferate in the market, both pro and consumer, for years to come.

Would an ExpressCard Intensity kill this idea? I think it could eat into it's market share but both should coexist. I think the ExpressCard would be nice to have, but it sounds like BM isn't interested, which I think is foolish. I can't imagine why they wouldn't want to pursue this.

Kevin, looks like you've got the iStarUSA S3 Mini-itx case. I see MSI also has a mini-ITX GM965-based board, this looks like the best solution at this point compared to getting a dang Magma box for $700+. I know I'm late to the thread, but thanks again for your post.

Hi Kevin, Henry! This MJPEG quality setting is driving me nuts - I remember Kevin's post but I can't figure out how to do this..Anyone ???


[QUOTE=Kevin Kondra;723318]Hello Everyone,

The cpu, T7200 with 667 MHz RAM, has enough power to record 60i without dropping frames using BM MJPEG. The data rate seems to be 13 MB/s. What most people may not know is that BM supplies a second MJPEG codec that isn't used with their recording app and has selectable quality values. Upping the bit rate to 20MB/s makes a noticeable difference in visual quality. They number used is similar to JPEG compression quality numbers, where 100 is supposed to be lossless, and 80 is default. 20 MB/s is 92 on the scale.



Hi Kevin and one and all.This is an intriguing thread.I am new to this forum. I am an indie musician who would like to record music videos on a budget and something you wrote caught my eye. I have built my own intensity capture station. HC3 sony Cam @ 1920 X 1080i - HDMI - (Magma expressbox - Intensity) - Laptop Computer. My laptop is not fast enough to encode in the Medium or high settings of Cineform NeoHD ( Core2duo 1.8 Ghz - drops frames consistently ) but handles the BM M-jpeg just fine with plenty of CPU in reserve.I would like to get rid of the fine artifacts that are present in the BM codec and clearly absent in Cineform.If the quality is noticeably better at higher data rates, then that would save me having to upgrade my new laptop.I was wondering where you acquired the second codec that allows quality settings to be adjusted and what capture software you use it with.It would be awesome if I could up the rate to 20 MB/sec.Your help on this is much appreciated.
Kind regards.
Henry

David,
While a "Firestor" like HDMI device would be very usefull for run and gun situations, I personally would MUCH rather see an ExpressCard HDMI capture device.

1) Direct capture, straight into NLE.
2) The laptop acts as a convenient/largish monitoring station. Perfect for focus, great for director/others to watch.
3) Cost. (Should be $500 or less.)
4) Flexibility.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/12/blackmagic-design-announces-intensity-first-hdmi-pci-express-ca/

This is the card we all own, check the date of the article!

Hi Anmol.Yeah it was driving me nuts too and I e-mailed support at Blackmagic Design.Turns out they do not have the option to adjust the quality and I quote .....( I had quoted Kevin words in the e-mail )

'Now, the quote you are talking about actually refers to a PHOTOJpeg codec that is only for use on the Mac. It is not available on the PC at all.

The MJPEG codec does not have the option to adjust it's quality slider at this time.'

In other correspondence ...'WE can capture uncompressed, M-jpeg, and Cineform'.

Cineform is soooo much better than mj-peg (it's not bad though)so I purchased Neo HD.The option to adjust Mj-peg would have been neat I must say - I am on a PC and my laptop cannot keep up with Cineform high or medium encoding but is fine for m-jpeg.1.8 Core2duo.I use the magma PCI - expresscard solution and it is very good.Cineform told me my laptop is way too slow so would need a Santa Rosa running at 2.66 ghz; so I would need a new laptop to take advantage of the codec really.Thing is I just bought this one so it kind of sucks but such is life.I was thinking out loud so I e-mailed them back to enquire about the possibility of encoding using Cuda.Graphics cards are WAY more powerful than a cpu and my laptop has a 8XXX series Nvidia card.

The reply was

'We have no plans to do any GPU-based code because it limits the customer base that can benefit from it.'

I think I see their point so the easiest thing is for me to do is just upgrade again.But surely there must be others out there who are in this boat?Perhaps it will spawn a whole new opportunity.Cost of the whole portable setup comes in quite reasonable.Around £ 3000 all things considered.Poor man's Wafian ha ha.

Laptop £ 1000.Magma Chassis £ 500.Cineform Codec $ 599.00 ( not sure of Forex conversion) .Intensity Capture card £ 160.Portable Xantrex powerpack £100.HDV Camera with HDMI out £ 700.

Still not the most mobile setup (the Xdcam EX looks like a treat) but beats a desktop.I completely agree with Joseph.Perhaps if a company came out with a product that allows you to record direct from the HDMI or SDI output to expresscard that would be the day. So I e-mailed Blackmagic about this and ....


'Again it is a great solution and something that we are fully aware of. Our people are looking into it, but at this time we have no plans to release such a solution. This is not to say that we will never tackle such a beast, but I have no information regarding when/if ever this solution will be present in our line of products.'

So perhaps in the future,perhaps never.I think that that would be the holy grail though.

When we are thinking of a capture station, we are thinking of a Firestore sized device that encodes HDMI directly to CineForm, that is much more convenient than using a laptop in mobile camera acquisition. That would be so freakishly cool. Do it already:) You absolutely got a market here...

I had 2 questions - one is partially answered..
1. When I toggle the DISP button I can remove most of the icons on the display - except the TAPE operation. The green STOP or PAUSE or the RED record icon in the top right corner.. Problem is that this gets output on the HDMI side. How did anyone manage to avoid this problem ? I see frame grabs without this - please let me know..
2. The topic of 24P pulldown using HV20 and INTENSITY - Cineform does it, After Effects does it. And the freeware solution described on the web is for HDV - is there an alternative solution for MJPEG ?? Also, does Vegas Studio 8 remove the pulldown or not - I can't seem to get a definite answer on this :-( ?

Thanks!

Anyone seen this yet? Looks like our prayers will be answered:
http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm

Anyone seen this yet? Looks like our prayers will be answered:
http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm
Thanks Andrew for letting us know about this. Thanks also to Cineform and its partners for working on this.

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=107885&highlight=hv20

Can anyone confirm if the GetCatalyst works with BM Intensity ? Thanks!

I hope GetCatalyst (http://www.getcatalyst.com/adapter_moreInfo_pcie2exp.html) is less expensive than MagmaBox.

BTW, original "Wearable Computer System" based on mini-ITX GM965 looks as better solution than games with these adapters for laptop, imo:)

Hi all, i read the entire fascinating thread -

- did cineform ever release a firestore like device to capture HD out of a Canon HV20/30?

Thanks!!

They are working on it:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=107885