I'm pretty sure that picture has been knocking about for ages now, your comment on the movement of the market is completely valid - but would a lower-cost camera still be branded with cinealta? I'll find out for sure later :)

XDCAM HD has always carried the CineAlta badge (albeit silver in color, as the gold is reserved for the higher-end, more expensive gear). So it logically follows that since XDCAM HD is branded CineAlta, so too is XDCAM EX.

Yeah, of course, but we were talking about the possibility of that mock-up being a completely different, almost pro-sumer model that would be cheaper than the EX...

but would a lower-cost camera still be branded with cinealta? I'll find out for sure later :)

It has already happened in the minds of those who used the original high-end Cinealta. They weren't happy to see that badge on the side of the current XDCAM HD units.

I would agree that it's a mock-up, I just hadn't seen that picture before and it took me by surprise. You're going to like the 'holy grail' as you put it. ;-)

-gb-

These are mock up pictures that came out around the time of NAB. Old stuff. I guess no one really paid that much attention then with all the excitement? Just more speculation until the camera actually comes available.

If the camera has cmos, it would not be as interesting to me as a second camera, since it would be harder to match with the F350. What I want to know is when that new disc reader/writer will be available?

I believe the PDW-U1.

we were talking about the possibility of that mock-up being a completely different, almost pro-sumer model that would be cheaper than the EX...Sorry, in my opinion that's not a likely possibility at all. Like Greg, I had not seen this image before but I'll put credence into Alex Leith's assertion that this particular image is a concept mock-up from an earlier stage of XDCAM EX development.

#@?!

I said it was it wasnt a possibility and I said it was an old mock up...all this mis-quoting is making me look like a really bad Sony product specialist :(

making me look like a really bad Sony product specialist :(

Out of curiosity Jamie, as a Sony product specialist, are you a direct employee, an independent contractor, etc?

I only ask because I don't know how Sony UK is set up. I myself belong to a group in the US called XDCAM ICE team. Independent Certified Experts. Roughly ten of us from around the US that assist with product training and demos from an actual user perspective.

-gb-

Easy does it, Jamie... we're all friends here. I did not misquote you. I quoted you directly from your earlier post in this thread (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=732438&postcount=53). If it seems lifted out of context, then I apologize. You had said "we were talking about..." but in actuality the only person talking about it was Vaughn Wood in this post (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=732305&postcount=43). You then asked "would a lower-cost camera still be branded with cinealta," to which I replied that it's been done before. For everyone: let's please keep our emotions in check and our attitudes positive at all times -- thanks in advance,

Here you go Chris.

http://www.xdcamuser.co.uk/articles.php

Near the bottom of the page under concept drawing. I remember seeing this come out around NAB.

Easy does it, Jamie... we're all friends here. I did not misquote you. I quoted you directly from your earlier post in this thread (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=732438&postcount=53). If it seems lifted out of context, then I apologize. You had said "we were talking about..." but in actuality the only person talking about it was Vaughn Wood in this post (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=732305&postcount=43). You then asked "would a lower-cost camera still be branded with cinealta," to which I replied that it's been done before. For everyone: let's please keep our emotions in check and our attitudes positive at all times -- thanks in advance,

Sorry Chris, I meant that #@?! in a completely friendly way, I realised why you thought that - sorry I didnt make it clear. It's been quite a slow day and I'm rather bored and frustrated :) I guess my sense of humour and sarcasm don't quite come over that well in a serious forum, apologies from across the pond.

Greg - I work for one of the (more successful) sony specialist dealers in the UK, I think theres 10-13 now but not many with the knowledge/customer base we have.

So just to be sure...

In terms of real time how fast will the cards transfer to say an HDD.

It would seem that the pic in the link is an old one and the video is the newest version. Did I read correctly in that the EX will be about the size and weight of the V1 ???

Mike

From what I saw at NAB, I think it will be a bit heavier than V1U. More like a bulky z1u.

So just to be sure...

In terms of real time how fast will the cards transfer to say an HDD.

It would seem that the pic in the link is an old one and the video is the newest version. Did I read correctly in that the EX will be about the size and weight of the V1 ???

Mike

Held one at NAB for about 10 minutes. About the size of the HVX200, maybe a tad smaller.

-gb-

I like my Z1. The tape issues I was having recently actually were not the fault of the camera but that is another story.

I use a Glidecam without the vest and really would like the thing to weigh right around the Z1` wieght

The article said it would be about the size and weight of the V....

It did not seem that way to me from the NAB Vid either.

When will we know any new real news?

Thanks

Mike

Official launch is at IBC next week

Thursday 6th of September is when Sony will have their press event. Usually the Sony IBC press release appears on the internet a day or so before IBC and there may be some info in that.

So just to be sure...

In terms of real time how fast will the cards transfer to say an HDD.

It would seem that the pic in the link is an old one and the video is the newest version. Did I read correctly in that the EX will be about the size and weight of the V1 ???

Mike

The EX is 2.2 kg (Z1 - 2.1 kg); this should give you the idea of its size, as well.

I'm hoping it's either something like the tech going into the CCDs in the high-end new Sony HDCAMs or CMOS. Even Nikon DSLRs are going CMOS now.

heath

Perfect weight!

I love it even more... :)

So do we know how fast the vs real time the download speed is +/-

I would assume it is dependant on the data rate it was shot in. I have read 2 or 3x real time... loading from card to Hard Disk

MRW

Heath, you should be aware that all recent Nikon DSLRs (excluding the D2H) use Sony sensors. This includes the CMOS D2x and the new CMOS D3 and D300. These new D3 series include noise reduction included at each sensor site like Canon have had for a while so noise performance should rival (or as rumoured surpass) Canon's noise performance.

Hopefully this technology will role on to Sony developed sensors for video cameras as well which will be great for increasing sensitivity of a sensor while keeping noise to a minimum.

It is also interesting to note that the Nikon D3 has a Sony 35mm sensor and still comes in with a RRP of only US$5000. Excluding the cost of the lens on the front, how come the video industry still insists on charging US$8000 ($3K more) for a camera based on a set of 3 tiny little 1/2" sensors... The D3 can produce & process 108 megapixels of 14bit pixel data per second (9fps at 12.1MP).

It is also interesting to note that the Nikon D3 has a Sony 35mm sensor and still comes in with a RRP of only US$5000. Excluding the cost of the lens on the front, how come the video industry still insists on charging US$8000 ($3K more) for a camera based on a set of 3 tiny little 1/2" sensors... The D3 can produce & process 108 megapixels of 14bit pixel data per second (9fps at 12.1MP).

There's a lot more to a video camera than that. Don't forget the audio processing which is going to be head and shoulders above what you'll get from a digital still camera in movie mode.

And can the D3 'sustain' that 9fps, or is that a burst mode? The video camera has a lot of demands placed on the circuitry to process that much data in 30 to 60 fps.

-gb-

The short burst mode of a D-SLR still camera is not a legitimate comparison to the indefinitely sustained thirty frames per second requirement for video... the argument re: D-SLR sensors whose gates cannot be cleared fast enough to accommodate High Definition video at 60i or 60p, vs. the smaller video-specific sensors that can, is totally invalid and holds no water at all.

Plus, one must factor in the number of units sold.

Companies like Canon or Nikon sell way more DSLR's than Sony or Panasonic sell prosumer or professional video cameras.

This lowers the price of the DSLR's

The 9fps is not a burst mode, it is the contineous high shooting speed. The first thing that stops the camera from shooting is the inability to write that much data out fast enough (ie CF cards arn't fast enough). The main reason it can't go faster is the physical shutter mechanism a DSLR has the video camera doesn't need to worry about.

You compare

12.1MP @ 9fps = 108.9Mp/s

2MP @ 30fps = 60Mp/s

2MP @ 60fps = 120Mp/s

You can see there is very little difference in the sustained data throughput of these cameras at 60p. At 30p the DSLR has a lot more data to move. Sensors can be designed to output their data faster than previous models, Nikon have done this with their D3

Audio is probably one of the simplest parts on the video camera. Each type of camara has its differences of course, a video camera doesn't have to worry about a shutter and mirror, DSLRs are built much more robust than any handycam I have held, and it has to be able to record RAW and compressed data out, a video has contineous data flow and compression etc I don't see anything that means a video camera is that much more complex or expensive to design/manufacture than a high end DSLR. This is being prooven by RED who have a 35mm sensor in their camera, and guess what, their volume will be much less than this EX camera yet they are keeping their body price much lower comparing sensor size with price.

With supply and demand, it is Sony's choice to price high, sell less units but make more money per unit. They are just fortunate there isn't agressive competition in the video industry, everyone is just a little more interested in their profits than bettering their competition, unlike Nikon v Canon. Sony pretty much dominates this market and they know it. I can only hope that Red's pocket cam eventuates to something to make Sony change their approach.

If you think there is much more to a video camera such as the EX than a camera such as the D3 I think you are only fooling yourself, cause you arn't fooling me.

All just my personal opinion of course.

One other thing is the cost of the glass. Lenses for still cameras don't have to worry about things such as breathing while video lenses do. This adds to the complexity of the lens design.

I still maintain that the audio processing circuitry adds to the cost. How many DSLR cameras can do 4 channel audio?

As was mentioned, higher volume of sales for DSLR cameras means they can be sold at a lower cost.

In any case, we're drifting way off the thread topic so let's return to discussing the XDCAM EX and/or the high end XDcAM HD 422/50 mbit cameras.

I'm not fooling myself because I spent a quarter century working in the semiconductor industry. I've seen what goes into the design and production of devices. You wouldn't believe how tight the process parameters are and having to use high spec components exacts a premium for anything electronic because the device yields are lower.

-gb-

I didn't mean to start an HD vs. DSLR debate when I was talking about Nikon going CMOS and how I'd love to see the EX have it. Same type of chip, different application, architecture, etc.

heath

If it really was that easy to make a DSLR chip that can do video then I am sure that Nikon or whoever would have done it a long time ago, lets face it if they did bring out a DSLR that could take both stunning stills and full resolution video I am sure it would sell like hot cakes.

Heat is a massive issue. The energy used for high speed readouts generates heat. The more data, the more heat. You can get away with it for short periods because the chips get a chance to cool off between bursts, but when you have to do it continuously you need a design that is not going to cook the CCD's or CMOS as hot sensors leads to picture grain, noise and ultimately failure.

Take a DSLR and start running off bursts of stills. Then compare the noise in the first and last, it will increase and get worse and worse as the chips warm up.

SLR lenses don't need to accurately track focus as you zoom, they don't need to have autofocus and exposure systems that are (or should be) transparent in operation.

...I was talking about Nikon going CMOS and how I'd love to see the EX have it. Same type of chip, different application, architecture, etc.

Personally I'm still not sold on CMOS. The rolling shutter and noise suppression algorithms can look just plain ugly on video. To my eye most CMOS camcorders generally seem to have a far more "electronic" and less "organic" look than CCD cameras.

And I don't feel that this makes up for the marginal increase in latitude gained from the individual photo-site addressing. I'd rather stick an ND grad on the front.

I'm hoping that the "specially developed new sensor" for this camera (if it is CMOS... which I'm guessing is pretty likely) is free from rolling shutter, at least? If that's possible with a CMOS?

Personally I'm still not sold on CMOS. The rolling shutter and noise suppression algorithms can look just plain ugly on video. To my eye most CMOS camcorders generally seem to have a far more "electronic" and less "organic" look than CCD cameras.

And I don't feel that this makes up for the marginal increase in latitude gained from the individual photo-site addressing. I'd rather stick an ND grad on the front.

I'm hoping that the "specially developed new sensor" for this camera (if it is CMOS... which I'm guessing is pretty likely) is free from rolling shutter, at least? If that's possible with a CMOS?

The technology all ready exists; it's called a global shutter which, I believe, has been used in CCDs and now finding its way in CMOS chips. Let's hope that Sony will employ this in the EX.

When I compare 50i/CF25 Z1u footage with 24p V1u footage, it all looks the same to me, especially when I convert the Z1u footage to 24p.

heath

I was wondering that myself. I used Nattess to do a bunch of film effect stuff ( looked incredible if I do say so myself) and wondered how it compared to "real" 24p...

I shoot with a Z1. I have read that the sensors on the current bottom of the line cine alta produce more organic "film like" grain, also partly due to the codec perhaps? Codec that will be in the EX?

We own 3 A1us and as long as there is light we are golden. The lattitude is welcome when the shooter is in a bind which is often in live event, outdoors.

I think if Sony goes with cmos I'm sure they are not going to put out a 4 lux V1 spec unit. This cam will need to compete for at least one year solidly against what is on the horizon. The "pocket" RED comes to mind.

So when will we get to hear some real news about this sucker?

Mike

So when will we get to hear some real news about this sucker?

IBC in early September will be the official release at this point in time.

Around late October availability.

-gb-

Just to clarify, Nattress produces true 24p: G Film will change your 60i video into 24p-with-pulldown; G Film Converter will change your 60i video to 24p-without-pulldown.

I'm excited to hear more about the EX at IBC!

heath

"If it really was that easy to make a DSLR chip that can do video then I am sure that Nikon or whoever would have done it a long time ago,"

I didn't mean that, but when everyone discusses sensors they always relate physical size to cost, ie bigger costs more, and 'big' is really expensive.

DSLRs and RED* both proove that a 35mm sensor can be manufactured without producing 6 figure prices or even 5 figures in DSLRs case. Heat management is not as big an issue as some make out. The only camera to get that wrong was the JVC. The EX will do 1080 60p out of 1/2", JVC stuffed updoing 720 30p out of 1/3", go figure...

Autofocus is not really relevant to this conversation. This is not (and never has been) a question of lens. JVC stuck a $800 lens on the cameras and I dare say the EX will have a similar quality lens on it too.

We get caught up thinking 1/2" is great and 2/3 is fantasitic, but where have we come in the last 10 years ago? I bought my 1/2" SD camera around 6 years ago and it was a model that had been on the market for a few years itself. The current version of that body still lists for very close to what mine listed for back then. It's also almost criminal that new HD cameras are comming out with 1/4" sensors.

I can't see heat from sensors effecting anyone but JVC. The EX camera will likely be 1080 60p at only 1/2". They can manage heat just fine. RED is doing it with huge data rates. Yes it is a design requirement, and reducing it is always going to be important, but it is not uncontrollable.

I still can't see audio being any major issue. Audio on cameras hasn't changed for 10+ years, there is no R&D etc Audio is a cheap component of a camera.

*Although is REDs sensor the size of a 35mm film neg like the Full Frame DSLRs are? I have a little feeling 35mm in film is smaller than 35mm in photography for some reason.

Heat is a massive issue, I have a degree in electronics engineering, so please don't tell me it's not.

The F350 XDCAM can't do full frame 1080 at 60fps and that's in a much more heat friendly size of unit. The F330/F350 requires fan assisted cooling. When you start doing a lot of over-crank stuff the fans really get going.

Will the EX do full frame 1080 at 60fps????

The standard JVC lens is terribly soft at the edges and far from perfect and look how much the replacement lenses are, at least the cost of the complete camera/lens package if not more. A 1080 lens has to be much higher quality than a 720 lens. It is also much easier to make a lens that will work with a small sensor than a large one.

Red is in a massive aluminum heat sink with forced air fan cooling to help with heat, yet still they are struggling with heat issues and failures. The grass Valley Infinity prototypes were running so hot that cameramen couldn't use them on their shoulders and power consumption was near 50w. When you consider Infinity is solid state with no motors to spin or tapes to pull that is very high. 50W is a lot of energy, most of which ends up as heat. try sticking a 50w lightbulb next to your ear or in front of you eye!

It is a simple fact of life that rapidly transfering large amounts of data quickly with current technology generates heat. That's why the new intel CPU's have been designed to run slower, they simply could not get the heat out of the Pentium CPU's fast enough to allow then to go any faster. Thats why the push is no on multi-core CPU's as the thermal load is lower per CPU. Heat up an image sensor and it's performance degrades. The CCD's I use for astronomy are actively cooled with chiller devices because a cold chip produces far less noise and grain than a hot one. Take a noisy, grainy webcam CCD. Cool it and run it well below freezing and you would be amazed at how clean and clear the images become.

"I have a degree in electronics engineering, so please don't tell me it's not."
So do I, so your got nothing special there. Heat is an issue but dissipating heat is not a new science and it is not what is stopping manufacturer using larger sensors (that is marketing getting in the way of progress). In fact, JVC themselves said the problem for them was handeling the heat from the sensor because the sensor is so small, not too large. Extracting the same amount of data from a larger sensors should help to handle the heat, not make it worse. RED is 12MP @60p on a Super 35 sensor and they seem to be shipping units to end users now. We are only talking about 2MP for 1080p. I just can't accept heat for 1/6 of the data of RED is going to be a problem for a 35mm sensor.

Get back to the initial question of why we are still paying high prices for 1/2" sensors cause thats were this section of the discussion started. The answer is not heat dissipation.

Sorry, yes I made a mistake, the EX will not do 1080 60p, it is 1080 30p and 720 60p.

I know the lens on the JVC is soft, and I bet the lens on the EX will be quite a compromise as well. I havn't heard much in the way of positive thoughts on the default lens Sony ships on the 330 either. All this will prove is the lens is not a significant cost of the EX price, it is not a dispute on the expense of true HD glass vs SLR glass, I don't see why that keeps getting brought up.

"That's why the new intel CPU's have been designed to run slower"
Actually the new Intel CPUs are set to scale up to 4GHz, faster than the Netburst architecture went (and is already at 3GHz with 4 cores), . Sure, and advantage of running slower is keeping the heat down (much lower than previous designs) and the processor is so dam fast per GHz it doesn't need to run faster to compete in its market. Speed increases come as they need it for the market. 45nm is providing a lot of savings in heat production as well. A quad core Core 2 can reach the same heat levels as previous architectures and pulls much more power too.

Very interesting how the camera world has merged with the microprocessor world over time.

Maybe this unavoidable problem with heat and processing speed will force 1080p to be a summit for a while.

We barely have had HD now we have "full" HD.

The manufacturers don't have any time to develop product lines and be able to gain econimies of scale with the specs shifting so much.

Looking forward to the EX launch to see if I will go to HD or not.

I don't shoot movies or anything for the silver screen so I am totally happy with 1080p for a long time.

High quality 1080p looks great, there is hardely a TV in a normal retail shop that supports anything more (we all know most are substantially less) and I can't see digital HD TV broadcasters going above 1080 for some time, especially in my home land (Australia) where HD take up is really quite slow compared to how this country usually adopts new technologies.

As much as I am pieved of with the small sensors in these cameras I have no choice but to accept it and get on with my life so I too am 'excited' by the EX. My biggest question is which to buy first, a D3 or a EX (and they will both hit the market at about the same time). Maybe buy the D3 and lease an EX.....

will i be able to use my letus adaptor on the XDCAM EX ?

I'm pretty sure, Anthony. I hope so.

heath

will i be able to use my letus adaptor on the XDCAM EX ?

Thread diameter for the lens is 77 mm if that helps.

-gb-

I guess it really depends on how far zoomed in you have to avoid vignetting whilst still being able to get focus on the imaging surface...

We possibly won't know until somebody tries.