This question comes in 2 parts:
1: does anyone know how much a follow focus unit costs for the canon xl1 or atleast an approximation?
2: I was also told that you cannot change focus while a subject is moving to maintain sharpness when using the xl1 or any other minidv camera? Is this true or just a myth because it does not make sense to me as to why you couldn't follow a subject if the camera has manual focus.

Thanks for any answers.

Howdy from Texas,

>> 1: does anyone know how much a follow focus unit
>> costs for the canon xl1 or atleast an approximation?

They can get pretty expensive... about $1,000 or so.

>> 2: I was also told that you cannot change focus while a
>> subject is moving to maintain sharpness when using the xl1
>> or any other minidv camera? Is this true or just a myth
>> because it does not make sense to me as to why you
>> couldn't follow a subject if the camera has manual focus.

Okay, the deal is, with just about any DV camcorder you can't zoom and focus at the same time. This is a limitation of the servo-controlled lens found on not only the XL1 but *all* prosumer digital camcorders. You can zoom, you can focus, but not both at once.

If you're talking about following a moving object and maintaining focus manually, well sure, you can do that, as long as you're not zooming.

The exception to this rule is the XL1 with a manual lens. Because the manual lens isn't a vari-focus servo-controlled lens, you *can* zoom and focus at the same time. This is true for the older 14x manual and the new 16x manual XL lenses. With the 16x automatic lenses, though, you can't zoom and focus at the same time, nor can you with a PD-150 or comparable DV camcorder with a built-in automatic lens.

Hope this helps,

Parts like to matte box, follow focus, etc look "cool" but does anyone have experience with them? It would be a large investment to find out that they are problematic. I'm thinking of getting some Cinetech products, so any help is appreciated.

Yes go ahead and get some adds Get a matt box that can hold at
Least Three Filters. Get rods with them to hold that mat box Get some ND filters A pol fil A follow focus is key with the new manul lens 16x.

I hope that helps?

Matte boxes - or compendiums as they also are known as - are one part filter holder and one part sunshade.

The sunshade part is to avoid stuff like lensflares, and to attach flags - to avoid REALLY bad lens flares.

The filter holder part holds filters. Usually a couple of fixed - and one or two that rotates for graduated ND filters or colored filters.
You can then stack all kinds of filters in front of the lens, rotate them for effects, you name it.

www.format.co.uk makes a nice 16:9 matte box for the XL1. It is called FM500 and has two fixed and one rotating filter holder. It holds 4x4 and 4x6 filters. They also make resin filters (way cheaper than glass - and IMHO ok for DV's resolution).

Another make is Alfred Chroiszel. Really pro brand - but VERY expensive. Formatt's is better priced and looks way cooler as it is 16:9 (if that matters to you).

Marty

Forgot about the follow focus.

Those knobs on the side are usually for the focus puller.

The white ring arond the knob is for marking different focus points during a take. The ring is usually flourecent for working in bad lighting.

Marty

Tried contacting Cinetech, but no reply.
Any ideas where I can get pricing on MatteBox
and follow focus system for XL1-S?
Thanks

I'll see if I can get Mr. CineTech (Karl Horn) in here, but it may have to wait until the first of next week when I get back from Denver.

Thanks Chris!

http://www.format.co.uk doesn't work. Only a temporary problem or not available any more ?

I usea follow focus as 1st AC because it is easier to use the focus ring instead on the camera to pull focus. Leave my hands out the camera op way. Yes you can pull fucus on XL1s I have on DV handycam just by feel of and the camera operator telling by eye he too much work on shoot itself.
I hope that helps sort that if any can give not have follow focus I all Ears to hear thanks

Help!
Trying to find someone who supplies/makes
a follow focus system for the XL1-S.

Have tried contacting Cinetech, but no reply.
Any other ideas?

Anyone tried "follow focus" with just the 14x manual lens on the xl1? What are your experiences with the manual lenses for the XL1?

Any suggestions/ideas would be great. In pre-production of our first DV feature, and would
like the best control of focus possible.

Anyone seen the Canon "Making of Commercial" video? The XL1 kitted out in this special is what I'd really like on my XL1-S! (there goes all my money...hehe..)
Thanks!

I think the company that made the follow focus, used in the commercial, was listed on XL-1 Watchdog. They sent me their catalog. The unit costs around $1700. Follow focuses are expensive, for some reason. The fact is, it's not a very complex device. If you have some basic machine-shop skills, you could probably make one for a lot less. Instead of the lens gear, you might try a pressure roller (made from a model-airplane tire).

Speaking of the Canon commercial, nbpjaroch7...just what exactly is all that equipment shown in the XL-1 "Making of" commercial?

Looks like some kind of large battery on the MA-100...and XLR jacks plugged into the MA-100 are connected to a DAT deck, I guess. Any ideas on the specifics and other items shown?

Well John, I have that on DVD and if I have the time I'll go through it and name off all that stuff for you. Will try to do it this weekend -- unless someone can step in and do it sooner.

arri4moi: Is that company Cinetech? Any information on contacting the company that sent you the catalog would be most helpful.Thanks!

zchildress: I wish I knew! That's what I'm trying to figure out. I want to start a DV feature this summer, and with the XL1 I'm pulling off images that are incredible..but...I need follow focus/mattebox/more lenses and goodies ^_^.

I'm gonna try contacting Canon and find someone who can breakdown the "kit" from the "making-of" commercial. I'll post what I find out.

Thanks guys! -
Justin aka nbpjaroch7
www.nbpfilms.com

I have a Cinetech follow focus. If you are having problems reaching Karl Horn at Cinetech you can get what you need from Birns & Sawyer. I just did a shoot where we rented three XL1S's including follow focus mechanisms and matte boxes from them. They have everything you need. Try http://www.birnsandsawyer.com/index.asp

Thank you so much John!
-Justin aka nbpjaroch7

Looks like this is my day for stupid questions. I just asked one in another topic...so might as well go for the DV dunce award.

What exactly does "follow focus" do and how is it different from autofocus?

Professionals: (I'm new to this, so correct me if I'm wrong...^_^)

Ever tried to keep focus on a subject walking 20 feet toward you with the 16x auto lens? Sucks huh! ^_^

As with all autofocus, the lens "searches" for the appropriate target, and you don't have that smooth, beautiful focus you see in the movies.

Follow focus is a geared mechanism that attatches to a manual lens and allows finer focus control of your lens by rotating the follow focus ring.
Most follow focuses include a marking ring that allow you to make "marks" for beginning and ending focus positions. This way your assistant (focus puller) can handle the focus as you concetrate on camera movement/operation.
An added bonus you don't bump/move the lens while wrestling the manual lens with no stabilization.

Anyway, that's my take on it...anyone with better description...please add! ^_^
Justin aka nbpjaroch7

Sounds like something I DEFINITELY need to look into, nbpjaroch7! Thanks for the reply.

Information on this kind of stuff in English is practically non-existent where I live. So, the information I get here is invaluable in teaching a thirsty beginner the ropes.

I'm just curious, what exactly is follow focus?

Well you really know how to ask the bb questions. So I looked in all My books and found nada. I would take a stab and say you need to hire a focus puller!

Disclaimer: I'm not an industry professional, so I hope I got
this one right...

Follow focus is a mechanism used in the big productions to
adjust focus with knobs. These are pretty big and can be
operated by someone other then the cameraman, hence why
they are called focus pullers. The device probably gets its name
from the way you use it: to follow focus.

You can see it on the P+S Technik 35mm rig for the XL1
here: http://www.zgc.com/assets/images/version_2002_smallest_jpeg.jpg
(see the white/black knob on the side)

Any professionals wanna tune in?

So someone else is focusing besides the actual camera operator? Hmm. . . sounds lazy to me. Please don't hurt me.

C'mere, Josh me boy, I'm a' fixin' to put a hurt on you...!

No, I can understand the confusion; if you are sequestered in Master Control as your signature indicates, you are used to seeing TV cameramen work zoom, focus, pedestal, etc. It would probably horrify you to visit one of my film sets and observe the occasions in which one of my assistants is pulling focus, another is operating the zoom, and the dolly grip is working the booming function and moving the camera--that seems like a lot of guys to do the same job as a studio camera guy!

Remember that in film there is substantially less depth of field to work with and focus is much more critical. Film assistants use tape measures to mark critical focus and pull with a true sens of zen to nail their marks on the fly, and it is up to the camera operator to indicate to them if they missed at any point. The operator's job is primarily to frame the image, and not having to deal with the mechanics and extra mental work of focusing allows him/her to concentrate on all the elements of the framing, such as errant shadows as from the boom mike, possible film gear visible in the shot like flags or dolly track etc. (there are many other aspects of the job but I won't go into it here). Also, if one is using a geared head (aka the "wheels") it ties up both of your hands. And this is assuming you are just operating the camera--in those instances where you are also DP'ing the shoot, your mind is occupied with zillions of other tasks like how to light the next set, when will the sun go down, what's the coverage on this scene, how can I get that cute PA's phone number etc.

The reason a follow focus mechanism is used is that it allows the assistant to make markings on a plastic disc to allow for custom settings for a given shot, as well as have a more efficient mechnical interface with the lens (it's a pain to have to stretch your hand around the barrel of a lens). Some film lenses have a massive diameter so it would cumbersome at best to attempt to rotate without the aid of a follow focus. It also allows for various attachments including a whip, which is a flexible shaft of various lengths that allows the assistant to remain a distance from the camera and still work the lens (great for handheld, for instance).

OK, so that's the film world. The question of whether or not a follow focus is valid in the extended depth-of-field world of video is a valid one. I have rarely needed one when shooting even 2/3" cameras like Digi-Beta, preferring to pull my own focus in those situations (an old Betacam slinger before moving to the film world, my early habits die hard). In DV, where there is seven times the depth of field of 35mm, it's not easy to achieve shallow focus--yet it does happen, and I've seen many instances of just-soft shots in people's DV work. The temptation is that everything looks pretty sharp, especially if you are working with a not-so-demanding viewfinder like the color XL1, so why bother to track the focus at all? Now THAT'S lazy, IMHO!

Some may use a knob because it is more comfortable even when pulling their own focus. And there is no question that on the long end of the lens, shooting a slow tracking shot over objects at different planes that requires multiple and precise rack focus moves, having an assistant do it will probably increase the chances of success in the fewest takes. But really, it's a matter of taste.

*sigh*...me so long-winded...sorry guys, hope this was useful.

Rob, you're right on with that description.

A follow focus system is great because the focus puller can mark the dial with the appropriate focus points they might need. If an actor has a planned move towards the camera, than they can measure and mark the points that will keep them in focus. This makes for very accurate focus - no guess work.

The camera op is usually looking through the VF and busy keeping subjects in frame. He's not lazy - most 35mm films used geared heads, and it takes two hands to operate them.

Generally, with video cameras you can be a little sloppy with focus because they have a wider focus range. In the 35mm and 16mm world focus it is more critical. In 35mm you are usually talking around 1 foot of focus and sometimes even less.

Focus pulling is an art. Great pullers can mark their basic points and then eyeball and correct when actors move in and out of those points.

Charles, you beat me to the punch. Too slow!

See, there you go. Justin hit virtually all the same points I did with 1/3 of the verbiage, the rat bastid! Actually it's sort of shocking that we were writing such similar replies at the exact sime time--Justin, can you tell me what I am thinking at this exact second? Or more urgently, do you happen to know where I left my sunglasses?

This actually has nothing to do with this post, and being a
wrangler I actually should be punished for this, but I just need
to say this.... sometimes I chuckle a bit when reading the posts
on this great forum, reading the post above was another one.
I find it just amazing how many people have gathered here to
share idea, knowledge and learn from each-other. Isn't that just
great? I'm amazed at the knowledge of some people and can
only say that I'm glad to be part of this great community.

Learning something new every day!

(now you can quote that last line if I ever get famous with my
movies, heh... now I need to smile about myself)....

Just something I had to say. Best to all of you, and see you
around!

That's it. . .you people are nuts! I am never ever ever working with film; it's decided. I'll do weddings and Bar Mitzvahs forever, and be the only one who ever touches my sweet baby camera (I named her Lucy).

Also, I was recently hired to shoot something, and the director has myself and another cameraman, and was asking me if he ought to have a third camera person to pull focus. I naturally had no earthly idea what he was talking about. Now I do, but it makes no sense as I'm shooting on an XL1s, and the other camera is more than likely something similar. Someone help!

Josh, how about this...when I shoot on DV, I bring along my right-hand man Erwin, who has the following duties:

Can, if needed, set up all the camera gear if I am tied up with the actors or other issues (lighting, etc).

Wrangles cables to the monitor, moves the monitor around as needed.

Unwraps the tapes, labels them, manages them once they are shot.

Pulls focus when needed (as in my prior post, this is rarely)

I haven't yet found an adequate term to describe what he does--it goes beyond "camera tech" and is a bit more comprehensive than "camera assistant", but what's in a name. I should point out that generally I am directing and/or DP'ing on these things, lest you think I'm sitting back and letting him do all the work--my hands are pretty full! This is a setup I find efficient.

Josh,

when you put that XL1 with an 50-100mm range lens baby on a fast moving dolly or crane and go "Tony Scott Style" on those wedding videos you will know what a great fucus puller does. He weeps and begs for mercy!

I recently tried to shoot a fast tracking close up with a 200mm lens on 35mm. We gave up after a couple of hours of steady shooting. It would have looked cool though. And we almost had it.

:)

Ok I guess I get you guys. It comes down to using a more complicated lens than the ISII lens or the manual zoom, as well a more complex setup. I am humbled.

Robert Rodriguiz, Director of EL MARIACHI and DESPERADO , said when he got to Hollywood he couldn't believe they had someone to focus his lens. He didn't think it was cost effective!

So when I'm watching Enterprise or something (yes I'm a dork) (that is shot on film, right? or is it HD?) someone's rack focusing, independent of the camera operator?

B. Moore,

Rodriguez also likes to operate his own steadicam. 35mm on a steadicam without a focus puller is simply not possible (unless your on an 18mm in the desert). Most operators use remote focus for this. Some are transmitted radio wave focus controllers.

Josh Bass,

The answer to that is a big yes. I don't know about the guild rules these days but when Sven Nyqvist came over to Hollywood he was chocked that he was not alowed to operate the camera during takes and that there were a team consisting of camera operator, fucus puller, clapper loader and two assistants on his camera. He had been shooting all the great Bergman films with only a focus puller. Sven is also famous (here in Sweden) for never using more than two or three blondies to light studio sets and exteriors. Go Sven!

I'm working on several short films and a feature and I have to figure a focus puller into all these jobs. Primarily this is because of the mini35, but in truth I expected this to be the case with my 1/2' camera.

Charles is right, video has great latitude for focus, but when it's off a little, you can REALLY tell. The background will inevitably be crisp and the actor in front will just be a little soft. It just bugs the hell out of me. Again, it's probably because it looks focused in the VF, when it reality it's just a shade off.

But when you're talking about 1 foot of critical focus (at best) you're talking about a whole new ball game.

My crew on these films will most likely consist of:

- DP/Camera op
- Focus Puller/AC
- Gaffer
- Key Grip

A four man team that can set up a non dolly shot in an average of 20 minutes. With a dolly it'll take at minimum of 40.

Within this XL-1 forum there are a lot of different type of shooters doing a wide range of projects. In turn different styles of filmmaking. If I'm shooting a band live, I don't have a focus puller, but if I'm shooting a film, I want one.

Well, maybe I'm missing something, but it just sounds like not too much fun. For the cameraop.

In turn, it's not very fun to say to the director that the last brilliant take was out of focus. It's just a different working method.

It's when actors move out of their marks that a puller comes into play. Good ones will compensate and they can do this because they can read the dial much better than the camera op.

You also have to consider the different roles that people play with a camera crew. There is just a lot to do.

- move equipment onto the set
- find power
- set power
- set lights
- lay track
- set camera
- check gate/lens
- white balance/check color
- block actors
- adjust lights /flag/dot/scrim/correct
- measure focus
- check DoF against stop
- load camera
- log film, tape
- match takes / lights
- don't blow any fuses
- check for flares
- rehearse / adjust
- etc.

And then you have to do 80% of that again to cover the same scene from a different angle.

I don't know about you, but I'm already having fun just being one cog in a four person team... ;)

And in my case I would be operator as well as DP.

As usual, Justin and I are posting at exactly the same time. I wrote a lengthy description of the camera operator's job--I don't think it's too redundant after Justin's post, so I'll go ahead and include it here.

Josh:

I can understand how it looks like these rigid union rules "forcing" one to use a gaggle of assistants to do the work for you seem like b.s. Actually, as an operator, you are free to do any of these tasks yourself, i.e. if you insist on pulling your own focus, you can do so. The reality is that in almost all circumstances, a good focus puller will outperform you and nailing shots is what it's all about--there's only so many retakes for focus allowed before you all get sent home.

For me at least, what is fun about being a camera operator is being able to participate in the design of the shots. On the series "Scrubs" that I work on (we are currently in hiatus between seasons), I have established a relationship with the DP that once the director has roughed out what he wants to happen in a given shot, I am then responsible for the execution of all matters camera-related while the DP lights the set. There are a series of steps involved, here is a sort of flow chart:

1) Determine if the camera should go on Steadicam, dolly or handheld

2) Discuss the choice of focal length, which means selecting a prime if needed or using a zoom ("Scrubs" being shot on Super 16mm, we generally use zooms)
a) If Steadicam, have the assistants mount the camera on the rig and order any special configurations
b) If dolly, discuss with the dolly grip whether to use dance floor or track, and determine the limits of the dolly travel in the shot to determine the positioning of same--also choose either the geared head or the fluid head, and anticipate dolly accessories such as risers or offsets that need to be added to allow the camera to get where it needs to go

3) Once the camera is configured, lay out the parameters of the shot using stand-ins. Often this means altering the marks laid for the original actors to allow for more interesting backgrounds or compositions. One must make judgements whether this will alter the blocking enough that a conference with the director and/or DP is appropriate.

4) When the shot design is complete, work with the gaffer and key grip to give them the framelines of the shot so they can work their gear up to the edges without getting into the picture
a) as the lighting process continues, alert the grip/electric team when flags etc. do infringe into the shot--on a multiple position move, this requires keeping a sharp eye out!
b) watch for flares, kicks and reflections of lights and stands, and help with ways to fix them (sometimes a subtle reposition of the camera will save precious minutes of flagging).

5) work with the art department to position set dressing (props, etc) to make the scene looked "lived in" or more interesting, or to block ugly things in the frame. On an exterior, this includes dressing "greens" (portable trees and shrubs).

6) Rehearse he shot with the focus puller and the dolly grip, adding refinements (is it more interesting to boom up at a certain point, would it be more dynamic if we made a little push in at another point)

7) Make sure that the setup will cut properly with the other shots in the scene, which sometimes involves discussions with the script person regarding direction of eyelines, blocking of the action, "crossing the line" issues (I could write an entire book on that subject)

8) Attempt to achieve as much of the preceding in the time available, which usually ends when set lighting is ready. Try not to have anyone wait on you being ready!

9) When the actors are called in and the rehearsal begins, watch closely to determine if they are doing anything different than the original rehearsals before the shot was laid out, and anticipate changes.

10) Do whatever fine-tuning is possible, again trying not to hold up the process. Much judgement is required here. Work with the actors on their body language and timing of their movements if needed to improve the flow fo the shot, and give them marks for off-camera eyelines.

11) "Picture's up"--time to roll the camera. Hopefully you've had enough opportunity to rehearse the move itself so that it's pretty useable from the first take. If not, continue to fine-tune the framing as the takes progress.

12) If the shot is not working physically and you have a solution, making a suggestion in the appropriate fashion to the director and/or DP. Sometimes requires subtly re-blocking, sometimes a radical change.

13) Continue to patrol the frame for "bogies" i.e. reflections, grip gear, boom shadows etc. The changes made in the previous step may open a can of worms, i.e. moving the camera two feet to the left would reveal all kinds of bogies that would take time to fix. Best not to suggest such a thing in that case! Anticipation is key.

14) Closely watch all elements of the action, including the background extras. In the film world, you have a much clearer view of the action through the eyepiece than the folks watching the monitors (this is reversed in the digital world), so you can see things they can't, and are thus responsible for everything in the frame being in the right place.

15) As discussed before, keep an eye on the focus and give the focus puller feedback if he misses anything, or if his choices of when to rack between two characters seem mis-timed. (Are you starting to see why pulling your own focus is just another duty to pile on top of an already large stack?!)

16) When the director has a take he is satisfied with, inform him if it is good technically. Sometimes they will call "Print! Great! Moving on!" and there is much celebrating, while there could have been a small problem with focus or the operating that they missed. Determining if it is enough of a concern to bring up is another acquired skill!


There is even more than that involved, but you get the point. And this is just working as a camera operator--if you are DP'ing as well, add on all the concerns of lighting, mentally planning the next few setups etc. Nevertheless, many feel that the operator position is the most fun job on the set!

However, on some shows the DP will do much of this work for you, handing the camera over just before we are about to roll, and you simply execute the move he has rehearsed (and very often, find things that he missed but there is no time to fix!) This is a much less desirable setup than the one described.

Martin--the union requirements state that there needs to be certain crew members present. There is nothing stopping the DP from operating the camera himself if he wants (and some do, usually the European DP's); the camera operator will go and sit on the truck all day. I've been there too, it sucks. The reason for the requirements is to protect our jobs from being eliminated, that is the job of the union. If the producers have an option not to hire an operator, they will eliminate the position entirely and force the DP to operate. As an operator who understands the benefit of the position, I am obviously not in favor of this!

I should point out that as I mentioned in item 14), in the digital world the operator has a lesser image to view than those watching the monitor, including the DP. This is an excellent reason to use an operator when working with a digital camera; the DP can keep an eye on the image much more effectively. Even though crews are smaller when shooting digitally, I personally feel it's more important than ever to use an operator for this reason.

I'm in awe.

I don't know if I should be envious, or in fear. Great write up Charles, you just made mine look like amateur hour.

Oh, and do you know where I misplaced my keys?

Holy cow Charles. We'll have to archive that one on the site. By the way it was great to see you today at ShowBiz Expo.

Justin--

armature hour? I didn't realize you did stop motion animation--!!

check between the sofa cushions for those keys...

Chris--

Nice to see you and Brooksie today also.

p.s. off subject, but topical--since I mentioned "Scrubs" here--a couple of people have phoned in to tell me that my mug is appearing on "Scrubs" promos airing on NBC this week, which means Tuesday's show is a rerun of an episode in which I made a tiny cameo appearance. If anyone catches it, I'm the befuddled labtech who pops up from behind a window and makes a goofy hands-up shrugging gesture. It was a spontaneous gag on-set that made the final cut, to my surprise--and somehow ended up in the promos, and even on a recent NBC blooper show. Not ready to switch careers yet, nonetheless.

Ow ow ow

Hah!

I said armature when I meant amateur. I fixed in the original post.

*Chris, when is that spellchecker going to be finished?*

See what happens when you're in a rush!

It was a long day for me, and will be a long night - almost done. I'm gathering all my stuff for a shoot. Just me and every stick of equipment I have - another reason to have those extra hands on set.

Tomorrow it'll be me (grip, focus puller, AC, best boy); the DP; a director, the screenwriter and a couple of actors.

Thank goodness this is only a test shoot.

You know, I thought I knew quite a bit, then I come on here and find out I'm like a retarded mutant camera-gimp. . .

. . . is that like a teenage mutant ninja-turtle?!

It's all good, Josh, there are parts of this forum that deal with topics that make realize I'm a rank armature--er, sorry, amateur. Like the computer/web/technical side of things. But I guess that's why we are all here, to try to fill in the gaps!

p.s. Justin, thanks for pointing out that we can edit our posts after the fact, that never occurred to me. I wrote that big old spiel in a hurry and didn't proofread it, so it was cool to go back and make some some little fixes. Good luck on your test shoot!

But I'm really rank. . .like you can smell the stench from like two houses down.