Hi all:

I am in the process of updating this article I wrote in 2001 http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/review_shotgun_mics.html
I am planning on reviewing and testing about 8-10 new shotgun/hypercardioid mics and I am planning on also testing/reviewing wired lavaliere microphones.

The tests will be geared toward interviews, narrative and VO usage for film/video. They will be practical, hands-on tests, not lab testing and test bench measurements.

For the the shotgun/hypercardioids, I am planning on the following...

1. Oktava MK-012
2. Sennheiser MKH-50
3. Sennheiser MKH-60
4. Sanken CS-1
5. Sanken CS-3e
6. Beyerdynamic MC836
7. Audio-Technica AT-4073a
8. Audio-Technica AT-875r
9. Schoeps CMC6/MK41g
10. Schoeps CMIT 5U

Any other shotguns/hyper/supers I am missing? In comparison to the original article, which was geared toward cheap shotguns, this iteration is intended to be a definitive shotgun/hyper primer for camera operators, DPs and producers. It won't be geared toward sound mixers as most of them already know what to use and why.

Any suggestions for items you would like to know about/see/hear in this article?

As far as the lavalieres...

1. Tram TR50b
2. Countryman B6
3. Sanken COS-11
4. Sony ECM-77B
5. PSC Millimic
6. DPA DPA-4063

Will only be testing wired versions of the mics, no wireless systems.

Your suggestions, requests and input are much appreciated.

Dan

A MKH-70 might have its uses, as would Neumann KMR81 and 82 (I didn't realise until recently that Neumann is also part of the Sennheiser stable). The KMR81 is a short shotgun so should probably be on your list.

Be sure to post sample wave files!

i'm partial to the sennheiser mke-2 lav. you should also test the sennheiser mkh-416 p48, an industry standard...

Wow Dan, I remember reading your article way back when I was first getting into this stuff. It was really helpful, and was the main reason we bought the K6 system. I think it's too bad the way people seem to diss the ME66 these days. I still think it's an underappreciated system, although it certainly has its limitations. Anxious to see how the new breed of mics measure up in your tests. As far as the lavs, I think you should throw the AT899 in there.

Hi all:
...Your suggestions, requests and input are much appreciated.

Dan

Definitely include the Neuman shotguns and the Sennheiser MKH-416.

For lavs... add a Audio Technica AT898, Voice Technologies VT500, Countryman B3, and maybe a AKG C417 .

Sounds like a cool test.

1- What tests will you run on the mics?

2- An idea... I think it would be very interesting if you released the results as a blind test, so that we don't know which mic is which. It would be interesting to see how the mics stack up, without people's perception being influenced by price, brand, or microphone type.

It might also answer some questions like... can a cheap hyper like the Oktava do as good a job as the Schoeps? Can a "cheap" shotgun like the AT4073 do as good a job as the big guns? Are there situations where the cheaper stuff falls short?

3- The other thing I'd be interested in is how the hypers stack up against the shotguns for on-camera use. IME, the ME-66 can sound pretty bad indoors sometimes (I prefer the on-board mic on the DVX100 in some cases).

4- It may be good to keep the # of mics down, and to test what people are most interested in. For example, perhaps switch the MKH60 with the 416.

It would be pretty awesome if you made some MP3 or wav files of your tests and provided those.

What about including the Audio-Technica AT4053a (http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/f34ee5c6bb0911cb/index.html)?

I also would like to see the Sennheiser MKH-70 included in the test.

A MKH-70 might have its uses, as would Neumann KMR81 and 82 (I didn't realise until recently that Neumann is also part of the Sennheiser stable). The KMR81 is a short shotgun so should probably be on your list.

Be sure to post sample wave files!

Hi Mike:

Thanks for your input. I will probably avoid long shotguns on this go around as they are, IMHO, a specialized tool, only usable in certain very specific situations. I think long shotguns would warrant their own separate article at some point.

The short Neumann would be a good idea, I will see if I can get my hands on one for the review.

Thanks!

Dan

i'm partial to the sennheiser mke-2 lav. you should also test the sennheiser mkh-416 p48, an industry standard...

Hi Greg:

Doesn't everyone know what the 416 sounds like by now? Well, I guess I will ask Sennheiser to send one along. I feel that it was good in it's day but I have always prefered the MKH-60 over it. If they will send me one, I will include it.

Good suggestion on the Sennheiser lav.

Best,

Dan

Definitely include the Neuman shotguns and the Sennheiser MKH-416.

For lavs... add a Audio Technica AT898, Voice Technologies VT500, Countryman B3, and maybe a AKG C417 .

Hi Jim:

I am trying to get Sennheiser to loan me a 416. If they will, it will be included.

I will only review the short Neumann as I feel that long guns like the MKH-70 and KMR82 deserve their own review and tests. I don't think the average audience for this article would use a long gun very often, I know I don't. I have the ME-67 and an MKH-70 and I am thinking about selling them because I so rarely use them. Guess it depends on what kind of stuff you shoot but for me, long guns are the exception. I use hypercardioids and super cardioids most of the time.

Voice Technologies? Is that something new? I have never heard of it? Has anyone else in this thread ever heard of and or used it?

I guess I should clarify, I don't want to review every short gun, hyper and super and lav on the market, just the most popular and well known. I don't know any pros in LA using the AT lavs, for instance. A few that use the Sony ECM-77 and most I know use the Countrymans, Trams, Millimics and Sankens.

I think if I review 15-20 shotguns and 10-20 lavs, this review will take me about a year to do rather than hopefully completing it in August.

Goos suggestions though, I will think them over.

Dan

Sounds like a cool test.

1- What tests will you run on the mics?
Mostly practical ones, I was thinking interview, narrative scene and possibly location VO. I will include on axis and off-axis samples. I do not plan on ANY bench or test tone type of testing, the audience for the article are not engineers or ultra techno sound guys, the main audience on Ken's board are videographers, filmmakers, producers and beginning sound mixers.

2- An idea... I think it would be very interesting if you released the results as a blind test, so that we don't know which mic is which. It would be interesting to see how the mics stack up, without people's perception being influenced by price, brand, or microphone type.
Could be interesting but also confusing as heck to organize and to present to the audience for the article.

I may do this as an "extra" at the end of the article, I like the idea. I fully expect some of the very inexpensive mics to sound as good or better to a lot of people as the most expensive mics. Recording levels are easy to manipulate a listener to picking the slightly louder signal, regardless of sound "quality" so I am trying very carefully to match relative levels in the samples.

It might also answer some questions like... can a cheap hyper like the Oktava do as good a job as the Schoeps? Can a "cheap" shotgun like the AT4073 do as good a job as the big guns? Are there situations where the cheaper stuff falls short?
Yes, great suggestions!

3- The other thing I'd be interested in is how the hypers stack up against the shotguns for on-camera use. IME, the ME-66 can sound pretty bad indoors sometimes (I prefer the on-board mic on the DVX100 in some cases).
Since I HIGHLY discourage the use of mics on-camera, it will be difficult for me to care about this parameter. The only thing on-camera mics are good for is ambient and as far as I am concerned, the cheap, stock on-camera mics are fine for ambient.

4- It may be good to keep the # of mics down, and to test what people are most interested in. For example, perhaps switch the MKH60 with the 416.
Agreed.

But I would be surprised if more people are interested in the 416, although that might be possible. Would be a shame as the MKH-60 has always sounded considerably quieter and better to me, I used to own a 416 and switched to the MKH-60 when it came out.

Thanks for your input!

Dan

Thanks for your time to respond too!

It would be pretty awesome if you made some MP3 or wav files of your tests and provided those.

Will do!

Dan

What about including the Audio-Technica AT4053a (http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/f34ee5c6bb0911cb/index.html)?

Would you and a number of readers rather see this than the 4073a? I think the 4073 is a lot more popular than this one, hence my choice, plus the new super budget 875a.

Convince me otherwise, I can't review three ATs.

Best,

Dan

I also would like to see the Sennheiser MKH-70 included in the test.

Hi Dan:

Appreciate your input but this article will only compare short shotguns, hyper and super cardioids. I feel that long guns should be a separate article since almost all of the companies I am reviewing also offer long guns too. But I can't test and review 30 mics, I am trying to hold it down to around 10.

I own an MKH-70. Great mic but honestly, it's so specialized, I rarely use it.

Dan

Hi Dan,

Sounds like fun.
I performed a similar test on a variety of shotguns awhile back. You can find the examples here http://dvestore.com/theatre/mics.html

Based on the feedback we got from the shotgun mic testing, we found that people wanted to hear side rejection and greater subject to mic distances. We just shot in a studio at a fixed distance to focus on the actual sound quality and self noise of the mic. It seems like a lot of folks commented on the fact that they wanted to hear what happens when you're off-axis and rotate the mic so hopefully you might be able to add that to your testing. I'm glad to see you're taking this one on and I'm sure everyone will appreciate your article.

If you have any trouble getting any Sennheiser, Countryman, Audio Technica or RODE mics, I'd be happy to personally loan you anything you need or utilize our contacts to assist in making sure you're taken care of.

Good luck,

Dan,

OK, since you asked, here's what I'd want to know from the lav tests.

Sensitivity - I do a lot of work in retail stores, and I often reach for LESS sensitive lavs (like an ECM-44 instead of a 77) precisely because it has less sensitivity and reach and it picks up less crowd/shopping cart rattle.

I'd also put ALL of them behind a silk tie worn under a sport coat and see how they respond to clothing noise. While you're at it, rub the cables and see how their self noise and mechanical damping holds up.

Also plunk them chest center on a nose breather - Some lav tend to FLUMPF under direct attack from nose-wind.

Test not only the crispness and high end for speach clarity, but check out their low frequency response. A lot of lavs sound nice and clear on the upper midrange and highs, but the tiny diaphrams don't always do so good for a rich, resonant voice - or conversly they make women with voices in a higher register sound harsh or shrill.

I'm not trying to drive you crazy with work, but those are all things that have made me switch lavs in the past.

And I think, if you only test them on ONE voice, you're not getting the whole story.

Finally, I'd look into how much they sting you to replace their darn little specialized clips and micro-windscreens! The damn things ALWAYS get lost and they're typically MUCHO expensive to replace!

Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

Have a great time testing, amigo.

Hi Bill:

Long time, no talk. Hope all is well.

All GREAT suggestions below, I will try to execute as many of them as I can. I guess I am spoiled by the Countryman B6 now, I never have to hide lavs behind clothes anymore, the element is tiny enough to place in the hair, behind a button, almost anywhere. Love that mic.

Looking forward to dipping into this one as soon as I get my paws on all of the mics. It's quite a job just getting test samples, so far.

Best,

Dan

Dan,

OK, since you asked, here's what I'd want to know from the lav tests.

Sensitivity - I do a lot of work in retail stores, and I often reach for LESS sensitive lavs (like an ECM-44 instead of a 77) precisely because it has less sensitivity and reach and it picks up less crowd/shopping cart rattle.

I'd also put ALL of them behind a silk tie worn under a sport coat and see how they respond to clothing noise. While you're at it, rub the cables and see how their self noise and mechanical damping holds up.

Also plunk them chest center on a nose breather - Some lav tend to FLUMPF under direct attack from nose-wind.

Test not only the crispness and high end for speach clarity, but check out their low frequency response. A lot of lavs sound nice and clear on the upper midrange and highs, but the tiny diaphrams don't always do so good for a rich, resonant voice - or conversly they make women with voices in a higher register sound harsh or shrill.

I'm not trying to drive you crazy with work, but those are all things that have made me switch lavs in the past.

And I think, if you only test them on ONE voice, you're not getting the whole story.

Finally, I'd look into how much they sting you to replace their darn little specialized clips and micro-windscreens! The damn things ALWAYS get lost and they're typically MUCHO expensive to replace!

Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

Have a great time testing, amigo.

Hey Don,

Sorry to resurrect such an old thread but did you ever do this?

It was just posted on January 7 - http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html

It was just posted on January 7 - http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html

Thanks Eric for the link. Anna, yes, this mic article is getting a lot of views and I am in the middle of doing the lavaliere version. It will be the same format but I will obviously test below clothing, above clothing, male, female, cable noise and will also comment on how each lav might intercut with a shotgun or cardioid.

Enjoy!

Dan

It's a very good article, Dan, and thanks for doing it. It is difficult to speak scientifically about a subject that can be so subjective on various aspects. I must say that your sample recordings were really important in helping me make my choice, so again, thanks for doing those along with the article.

It's a very good article, Dan, and thanks for doing it. It is difficult to speak scientifically about a subject that can be so subjective on various aspects. I must say that your sample recordings were really important in helping me make my choice, so again, thanks for doing those along with the article.

Thanks Eric, I am glad it was helpful in choosing the right microphone for you. Which one did you end up deciding on?

Best,

Dan

I elected to stay within my budget of $1,000, so I went with the Sanken CS-1. I really don't have a lot of outdoor boom needs, so I'm not bothered by the extra "air" that you found in your test. Still, if I had to use it outside, I wouldn't mind - it's a far bit better than what I have been using (an old Sony ECM-672). The vocal quality and richness of detail were still there, even with the environmental ambiance. I really don't mind ambiance as much as some other recordists do - if the sound is natural, I'll take extra ambiance over sterility.

Of course, I realized as I was making my purchasing plans yesterday that I'd need to also update my boom mount since the mic has a different diameter, and also a new wind jammer. That might be something to make a bigger point on in the article - that a shotgun upgrade will probably mandate additional accessories since not all shotguns share the same diameter, length, and handling characteristics. It seems obvious to me now, but somehow, I was thinking I'd just use the Rycote Softie and mount I have loved for years with my old shotgun. Not so - they won't fit!

Hey Dan

I just gave kudos to you in another thread but your articles was so awesome I figured I would say it again. I ran into your article last night in my usual scan of my favorite sites, Ken Stone being one of them. I am completely impressed. I have never visited the audio side of DV info so I had no idea you were going to do it.

I think you did a very thorough test. Great collection of microphones. Loved all the various photo's too. I am eager to read and hear the next review for the lavs.

I elected to stay within my budget of $1,000, so I went with the Sanken CS-1. I really don't have a lot of outdoor boom needs, so I'm not bothered by the extra "air" that you found in your test. Still, if I had to use it outside, I wouldn't mind - it's a far bit better than what I have been using (an old Sony ECM-672). The vocal quality and richness of detail were still there, even with the environmental ambiance. I really don't mind ambiance as much as some other recordists do - if the sound is natural, I'll take extra ambiance over sterility.

Of course, I realized as I was making my purchasing plans yesterday that I'd need to also update my boom mount since the mic has a different diameter, and also a new wind jammer. That might be something to make a bigger point on in the article - that a shotgun upgrade will probably mandate additional accessories since not all shotguns share the same diameter, length, and handling characteristics. It seems obvious to me now, but somehow, I was thinking I'd just use the Rycote Softie and mount I have loved for years with my old shotgun. Not so - they won't fit!

Hi Eric:

Yes, I ran into that when testing. All of these mics had different diameter, weird shapes and lengths. I used about ten different mic mounts in testing.
I will be doing a completely separate article in the future on mounts, boom poles and wind protection. There some cool new mounts out too that only the audio guys with the secret handshake seem to know about, I am looking forward to writing about those and showing them to the camera side of the world ;-)

You will be happy with your CS-1. I agree, in many circumstances, I too favor a little more ambient sound, but it just depends on what the ambient is. There are times when it's also nice to have something like the Neumann KMR81i or the Schoeps CMIT5u and just zap everything outside your talent. I bet at some point, you will end up with two mics, anyone who is serious probably leans that way since none of these mics are perfect in every circumstance.

Thanks for the kind words.

Dan

Hey Dan

I just gave kudos to you in another thread but your articles was so awesome I figured I would say it again. I ran into your article last night in my usual scan of my favorite sites, Ken Stone being one of them. I am completely impressed. I have never visited the audio side of DV info so I had no idea you were going to do it.

I think you did a very thorough test. Great collection of microphones. Loved all the various photo's too. I am eager to read and hear the next review for the lavs.


Hi Thomas:

I really appreciate your input, it is very much more enjoyable as a writer when you know that your audience likes what you are writing ;-)

Ken's site is amazing, he is a true uncelebrated gift to the film/video world. He does all of this basically because he likes to share knowledge, he makes no money from his site.

The lavs are trickling in. I received the PSC Millimic today! haven't heard a peep back from DPA, Sony, Countryman. Have mics coming so far from PSC, Sonotrim, Tram, Sennheiser, Audio-Technica. Need to get more of them to respond. This is the fun part (not), pestering reps and companies to give you the time of day and send you review samples.

Thanks again,

Dan

I see that Lectrosonics M150 and M152 are in the rental houses. Is either of these mics worth reviewing? I don't know how widespread the use is.

I see that Lectrosonics M150 and M152 are in the rental houses. Is either of these mics worth reviewing? I don't know how widespread the use is.

Do you know if those can be ordered hardwired? We are only testing hardwired mics this go around so that we can concentrate on the pure sound of the mic element without the distractions of wireless issues. I will eventually cover wireless in another article.

Best,

Dan

Do you know if those can be ordered hardwired? We are only testing hardwired mics this go around so that we can concentrate on the pure sound of the mic element without the distractions of wireless issues. I will eventually cover wireless in another article.

Best,

Dan

I don't think they come hard wired. I can't find them. In fact, when I was going to suggest them in the past, I thought of this. But then I forgot and suggested them.

But while I'm on the subject, there are two other mics you might consider, depending on how many you want to include in your review.

The most obvious is the Sony ECM-44B. Since it is kind of the default low cost option (and a "Top Seller" at B&H), there are many who might like to see how it compares to the higher-priced/smaller mics. In the most recent edition DV Magazine, there is an article about Alexis Krasilovsky and her documentary on women DPs which just had it's world premiere. In the article she says that she used the Sony 44B for almost all the interviews.

Another possible mic is the Sony ECM-55B. This is probably of less general interest. However, it has a special sound that was preferred my newscasters for a number of years, I believe. This mic might be an option for some people looking for a bolder, fuller sound for special situations. It is also an excellent multi-purpose mic.

Just ideas. These may or may not fit into the group you are evaluation. (If you are interested in either of these and don't have them at hand, I have them that I could give you for the tests.)

I don't think they come hard wired. I can't find them. In fact, when I was going to suggest them in the past, I thought of this. But then I forgot and suggested them.

But while I'm on the subject, there are two other mics you might consider, depending on how many you want to include in your review.

The most obvious is the Sony ECM-44B. Since it is kind of the default low cost option (and a "Top Seller" at B&H), there are many who might like to see how it compares to the higher-priced/smaller mics. In the most recent edition DV Magazine, there is an article about Alexis Krasilovsky and her documentary on women DPs which just had it's world premiere. In the article she says that she used the Sony 44B for almost all the interviews.

Another possible mic is the Sony ECM-55B. This is probably of less general interest. However, it has a special sound that was preferred my newscasters for a number of years, I believe. This mic might be an option for some people looking for a bolder, fuller sound for special situations. It is also an excellent multi-purpose mic.

Just ideas. These may or may not fit into the group you are evaluation. (If you are interested in either of these and don't have them at hand, I have them that I could give you for the tests.)

Hi Jack:

Good input, thanks.

I have sent a request to Sony on Monday. So far, I have heard nothing back. While I very much appreciate your generous offer to use your Sony mics, I will have to discuss it. I have some possible issues with using test samples not provided by the manufacturer. What if your mic has fungus growing in the diaphragm or has been slightly damaged? It could be perceived as slanting the issue of fairness from the brands that I borrow or obtain rental copies of in comparison to brand new factory fresh copies from other manufacturers? Not sure. But I will consider it.

I have a feeling that Sony and Countryman will not respond. I will have to begin the phone calls tomorrow.

Best,

Dan

Yes, it makes sense that it's best to test mics from the companies. May they all respond. Getting cooperation and participation seems to be the largest part of many projects.

Hi all:

Wow, ever tried to get a review sample from Sony? Amazingly difficult to even get through to the correct department at Sony.

1. Tried e-mail request through Sony.com Broadcast website
No repsonse
2. Today, two hours on hold and the phone. Spoke with Sony centers all over the U.S., New Jersey, New York, Miami, San Jose, LA, etc. That number that keeps coming up is the New Jersey number 800 686 7669. It was instantly busy from 6:00 AM PST to now. I can't tell if it's really busy or just messed up or a wrong number?

Bottom line, I am getting nowhere with even speaking to anyone at Sony Broadcast Audio. Anyone know a PR person with them that you can hook me up with? Just need to speak to someone. Everyone at Sony that I spoke with today just told me that I needed to speak to someone else and nobody even knew who the publicist/PR/marketing people for Sony mics were.

Any leads or suggestions? Large, faceless corporation likes voice prompts on their phones and it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

All my best,

Dan

Good luck with Sony. And thank you SO MUCH for the tremendous piece of work you did test the boom mics. Makes me happy that I have a 60. REALLY, THANKS AGAIN!

Hey Dan,

I have both 77s and 44s in my personal inventory.

Want me to simply loan them to you for the test week?

Easier than dealing with the company, I bet!

Let me know.

Bill

Hey Dan,

I have both 77s and 44s in my personal inventory.

Want me to simply loan them to you for the test week?

Easier than dealing with the company, I bet!

Let me know.

Bill

Hi Bill:

Thank you so much for your generosity. I have hopefully made contact with a Sony rep through Location Sound so let me see what happens. I prefer to obtain all of the samples from the manufacturers because then they can't complain that we didn't have factory fresh certified brand new non defective samples, but if this falls apart, I may take you up on your offer.

Will keep in touch to let you know.

Thanks,

Dan

Hi guys:

Good news, I think. The very nice people at Location Sound are trying to hook me up with the local rep for Sony lavalieres so it is looking good for getting a hold of the ECM series for the tests.

I also had a very nice contact with DPA, they will be sending me three of their lavs to test. This article is shaping up to be very interesting and it's looking like I may have as many as 15 models of lavalieres to test!

Audio-Technica - AT899
Sennheiser - MKE2 Gold
Tram TR-50B
PSC - Millimic
DPA - 4060, 4071, 4081
Countryman - B6 (working on getting the EMW and B3 but so far, no response from them at all)
Sanken - COS-11X, COS-22
Sonotrim - shipping to me on the 21st?
Sony - ECM-44, ECM-55, ECM-88

Any other lavs I am missing here? Feel free to make suggestions, but if I can get a hold of all of these, I think we will have the lav market pretty well covered.

Best,

Dan