***********LONG POST : SPOILER************

Here's what I think

The problem with the Matrix 2 is that they tell us EVERYTHING UP FRONT in the expository scenes! They didn't leave any suspense or mystery to keep the audience guessing. That's what made the first movie so good. Isn't there a basic rule to assume that the audience is always 10 steps ahead of the story? Well they didn't follow it in this case.

It's sad because there are so many great ideas that you could have teased the audience with.

------------------------------------------------
Here are some of the great ideas I would not have shown or told the audience until it was too late.

Idea 1:
Agent Smith is now independent and a rogue program. They should have let this go until the end of the movie, drop a few obtuse clues, but don't let us know that Smith is doing his own thing, until the end of the movie, plus we (and the characters) would have been wondering the whole time why is he back? How? That would have been great suspense.

Idea 2:
Agent Smith can clone himself. They gave this to us too early, just to show off the Smith vs. Neo thing (damn those trailers). We should have realized his cloning ability only AFTER they started fighting, maybe put a few children/women on the playground and let him start cloning himself using them! Horrific and mind-blowing at the same time.

Idea 3:
Agent Smith can now download himself into another human being! Great idea, but damn it they just showed us and then it was obvious what was going to happen from then on. Come on guys, the audience is ten times smarter and faster than that - I mean duh, if we know that Smith can run around as a human being, OF COURSE there's going to be a "TRAITOR" in the movie, now we even know who it is - Man what a spoiler that scene was.

Idea 4:
There are "older" rogue programs with their own agendas. The whole expository scene with the Oracle sucked big time, once again they just blurted everything out. I didn't need to know the Oracle was another program - play some word games and keep me guessing ... they should have let this be until the "Architect" scene" that would have been more mind blowing ...

Idea 6:
The "Architect" is really some super controlling Illuminati intelligence - and Neo and his gang are just pawns in his game - for the 6th time apparently. Okay this idea was done just okay, a little odd, but okay, I think it just whizzed by boringly because once again - the audience is already several steps ahead of the characters in the story. In addition, when we hear this "news" it is completely irrelevant to the story - I mean it doesn't really change anything right? The humans still have to destroy the machines or die trying, so who cares if the machines are super manipulative and intelligent ... we already knew that from the first movie.

Idea 7:
Morpheus has a nemesis in Bablyon (his superior) - Didn't this play like a Riggs/Murtoc scene with the Chief??? I thought I was watching another movie for a sec, the only thing that saved this idea, was the Morpheus "we are here" speech and of course Jada Pinkett (who wouldn't get mad if she got stolen away)

Idea 8:
If you can die in the Matrix, somebody can save your life in the Matrix - great idea, but the "get Trinity's heart pumping again" scene felt way too contrived, once again, people take way too long to die, and the Neo Trinity love story just wasn't "there". I would have played this funnier, Trinity is already dead when he catches her, Neo just goes, "oh i know how to fix this already" ... cut to Morpheus and the navigator in complete shock because she's already alive, when they haven't absorbed that she died yet.


IDEAS/SCENES THAT I THOUGHT THEY PULLED OFF:
--------------------------------------------
1. *** I did like the scene with the "French blowhard" guy, that was funny as hell. I really liked it because when it was over, nobody knew what the hell was going on!!! Everybody just piles into the elevator thinking, what the hell just happened???? Classic - best scene in the whole movie.

2. The kissing scene - I won't say it was great, but it didn't suck either.

2. The end of the morpheus speech ... plus they worked in the "somethings dont' change, somethings do" idea at that point, not a great, but it worked later when Jada Pinkett volunteers to help out the Nebuchadnezzer. I'm wondering where they're going to use it next.

3. That weird counsellor guy and his talk with Neo. Keanu makes a neat foil when his partner can actually act. I liked this scene because it let out the "humans need machines, machines need humans" idea out, without hitting us over the head with it.

4. I'm still wondering what the kid who adores Neo is all about.

5. Jada Pinkett, Jada Pinkett, Jada Pinkett, and of course Jada Pinkett.

6. What the hell really happened at the end when Neo "senses" the machines and they die, was that him or the EM pulse from the other transport?

Okay my brain is on overload, that's all folks!

I think you missed a very important clue.... Think Architect,
Agent replicating and machines dying in the end....

I really really liked the movie and didn't had much problems with
it. That might be because I wasn't expecting it to top the first one.
Only expected a fun interesting movie.

What would you have done?I would've gone for a few beers followed by fish'n'chips.

Damn, I wanted to see that movie so much but seeing as my wife just had my second child , a son, I will have to wait for the DVD, most likely I will miss the third installment in November as well. For now I have the Xbox game to enjoy, it is one hell of a game, but get the Gamecube or PS2 version, controls suck on the Xbox.

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : ... missed a ... clue -->>>

Hi Rob, I did enjoy the movie, I saw it 3 times in fact, I'm just saying that's what I'd do differently.

You'll have to fill me in on the your clue, cuz there are a lot of possibilities there ...

1. Neo is really the ultimate agent/architect/crossbreed between man and machine (that would further explain the name Neo)
2. The counsellor is another program/agent/the architect with ulterior motives
3. The counsellor is what Neo will become
4. The whole thing is a game that the machines keep the humans playing because they always lose, but it keeps them in check

... on and on and on ...

Oh and then there's the old Star Trek ploy ... "hey we're still on the holodeck ..." but having seen that happen too many times in Star Trek, I hope it doesn't happen in the Matrix 3.

Okay... this might be considered very massive spoilers.... so skip
it if you don't want to know.... (And please DO NOT READ if you
have NOT seen the movie yet. It WILL spoil it very
much for you!! You have been warned)





********
Since Smith could get into the real world, the oracle is a program
, neo can stop the machines in the real world and the Architect
is talking about the 6th version of Zion and the 6th version of
Neo (which if you shuffle the letters spells One -> which is another
hint here) the most obvious conclusion at this time would be that
the real world as they know it is still inside the Matrix. In other
words, the machines gave them a prophecy, undeground movement,
the oracle and the one, to perhaps give the people who would
not believe in the world as presented a way to "express" them-
selves... The architect says:

" As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster "

This seems to indeed suggest that a low percentage of human
kind will not accept the world/program and therefor seek a way
out (rebellion) and need a leader (the one).

A lot of people on the Internet seem to think this is the most
logical explenation of it all. If you've read carefully what I have
written and what the Architect said you must conclude that The
One (NEO) is a computer program himself as well (the machines
would not trust in "faith" to deliver them The One for the people
who don't accept the world). This might change the way we look
at the world of The Matrix completely. Whether this is a good
thing is up to you ofcourse.

If you want to read the whole Architect vs. Neo conversation
again just take the red pill and see how deep the rabbit hole goes (http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a0bba9c8.0305171741.cc8e6e1%40posting.google.com&oe=UTF-8)

Now don't say I didn't warn you!!

********

That's kind of Cheesy, the whole Matrix in a Matrix thing. I hope the third movie will answer all the questions we have. Or it would be funny if this is like the 13th floor or that other movie, city of darkness I think it was called, when city always was night time and the inhabitants had no clue that they were in a large space ship. Not having seen the movie like I've stated, this is kinda confusing since I remember seeing the first one quite vividly. I can see this get Star Trek like and go into infinite realities of the matrix etcetera...or it could be as simple as one being's imagination or like a video game. I never saw anything else that the brothers did, so I don't know their style other than having the first movie as a point of reference and albeit they used alot of deceptive tactics about reality, nothing really went too deep, like quantum physics or paradoxis... Actually, unlike Star Trek this deals with more of the paradox of levels of consciousness. Interesting to see what the Brothers' have in mind to tie this all together? Maybe it would follow as Lucas has done and create "prequels" that will show the other 5 matrices that were created, just kidding, that would all be stupid since it was supposedly an identical loop each time around.

The interesting thing to point out is: If the machines are willing to let these poor humans believe in their freedom from the matrix in order to preserve it for one one hundredths of their crop, why would they kill off the other 99.9% just to take care of a few bad seeds? Cutting of your hands to clip a fingernail. This would highly be illogical. Unless this is all in one consciousness. If I remember the first movie correctly Neo did not know he was the One and Morpheus had to seek him out. But according to that transcript, The architect told Neo he can take 17 women and 7 Males to restart the Matrix, then wouldn't the ONE know that he is the One? I'm confused.

What I hope happens is that it turns out that the "real" problem is that the machines are having an existential problem and they need the humans to help them understand/grasp it. They keep hammering away at this point in one way or another with the whole "you've already made the choice, it's understanding the reason that drives you batty" or like they said in the first movie, it's the question/figuring out the reason that drives you nuts remember the whole - What is the Matrix thing? or to put it another way, maybe the machines are trying to figure out "why are we here?" ... and since human beings created them, maybe they can help the machines find a reason, kind of similar to human beings worshipping dieties who supposedly were the creators to give us a reason for it all ... though in the case of the machines, they have otherways of divining the answer/reasons.

Anyway, this all plays rather nicely into a little ball that they dropped during the 2nd movie and let it roll off into the corner while everybody was Kung Fu fighting. During Neo's talk with the counsellor and later on the Oracle they kept bringing up the symbiotic relationship between man and machine. At first they were talking about the physical symbiotic relationship, machine keeps man alive, and man keeps machine running. But I'm thinking it would be cool if they took it to another level, machines need us and we need them, not to survive, but to give us a reason for existence. Kind of like a god doesn't really exist without his creations, vice versa the creations can't exist without the creator.

Or kind of like the way we mainly exist to propagate ourselves, in other words - have children that's our main reason for us existing at all it - in the end the children are us and we are them - though in the long run, we die, and our children continue - leaving behind the parents/creators or in the case of the Matrix the machines are trying to figure out how to leave behind the humans who created them.

So somehow the machines have to come to the same realization that Morpheus's put forth in his speech that the only thing that counts the only "reason" there is, is that "we are here" and we will continue to be here - because that's what we do and who we are.

There ... what do you think?

Garret: if Neo is a program they simply reset his program as well
with the new matrix. In other words, he would be back at the
start and know nothing. Just like re-installing a computer program
and that it lost all of its settings.

BTW: I think you were referring to Dark City (never heard
of City of Darkness) which was a very nice movie!

Michael: some interesting ideas indeed in there. We will have to
wait to november to find out what is truly the case here.... Can't
wait to see part 3.

Thanks Rob, personally I think you nailed it and I actually LIKE that explanation... that's one I can live with that lets me still have a higher opinion of this second movie... 'cause up till now I've felt very let down in relation to the first.

Michael... you also have some very intelligent insights... I'd bet a buck that you are Vurtualife or one of the other guys I talk to at dv.com

Anyway, I basically liked the movie but I felt the timing of the bullet time was a little weird... it seemed to me like there were times when bullet time was used ONLY for effect rather then as an effect which supports the story. A big contrast vs. the first movie... also I felt that things happened that didn't really make sense... whereas in the first every event had meaning to the story. Also I was bothered that the two randomly selected cars from the parking garage were both '03 Cadillacs... they should have ALL been drinking Diet Pepsi every time they showed 'em during the chase scene... "Oh God! Brace yourself!... "slurp"... mmm, THIS is diet?!"... "Pull up next to them... slurp..."... brand recognition is getting wacky IMO.

Well anyway, at this point I'm rooting for the Matrix in a Matrix thing... that seems like the most logical explanation at this point. It would also be wide-open for dramatic and intense scenes... imagine a climax with Neo when you think he's about to do what you've been waiting for and then it cuts to him still "asleep" in the goop... all shaven and calm... then the cool thing would be for him to open his eyes or wake up and you realize that he is the FIRST to ever actually wake up... sounds good and goose-bumpy to me.

Indeed Matt.... goose bumpy indeed. I also didn't like some of
the things you mention indeed. Can't avoid branding these
days eh....

<<<-- Originally posted by Matt Gettemeier : Thanks Rob, Well anyway, at this point I'm rooting for the Matrix in a Matrix thing... that seems like the most logical explanation at this point. It would also be wide-open for dramatic and intense scenes... imagine a climax with Neo when you think he's about to do what you've been waiting for and then it cuts to him still "asleep" in the goop... all shaven and calm... then the cool thing would be for him to open his eyes or wake up and you realize that he is the FIRST to ever actually wake up... sounds good and goose-bumpy to me. -->>>

Hehe, then he either wakes up and a machine kills him, or he goes insane never believing the 'real world' is the one he's currently in.

It'd be interesting if neo turns out to be another program, but ultimately saves mankind from it (ie really messes up the matrix). Cuz everyone likes a hero willing to sacrifice himself. Well, at least I do.

Thanks for the conversation Rob and Andrew... You guys are a lot more cordial than the crew over at dv.com

When I offered any criticism of "Reloaded" I got slammed out of the place! (Mentally anyway...) I suspect that most of the guys over there are younger then I and are still easily wowed by effects...

I think Neo WILL be a program, a rogue one, a virus. Don't you think it's funny that Neo was a hacker in the real world, prior to waking up (the first time)? Even better still... hold on now, this is wacky... is that Neo wrote himself when he helped design the Matrix and that he was his own intentional fail-safe and after he was killed by the machines there was no hacker that knew the Matrix/Neo code and then the Neo Virus was released right on time because the real world Neo was no longer there to keep the Matrix/Neo sleeping... only after the Machine/Matrix which the real world Neo helped design, killed him, was the viral Neo released... I think that Neo didn't know it but in the first movie when we see him hacking and a message about a rabbit pops up that's Neo's virus program kicking in... and that's what sets the rampage in motion. The Matrix has to always find Neo over and over again 'cause once he died of old age within the matrix and was flushed down the system his mind/computer releases the Viral Neo... following me on this one?

Sorry, I'm nuts and my brain doesn't have a throttle or brakes.

Speaking of viruses... let's make a movie called "Sars Attacks!"

Hey Rob, I see you and I are purusing the same classified listings... don't you find it funny that some guy can come in here with less then 10 posts and put up a multi-thousand dollar item and tell us nothing about the history of the item or why he's selling or the price? I wonder how many people get scammed here?

That is another interesting take on things, Matt. It is indeed all
a possability. Althought personally I think the machines have
more control over Neo. But then again why go through all the
trouble.... This is what makes the Matrix 2 good in my opinion.
It makes you wonder and speculate about things you thought
you have figured out :) If part 3 really delivers then it is all
worth it. If they don't then we better forget about 2 & 3.

I hope no-one gets scammed here, Matt. I assume that someone
seriously looking to purchase a high-price object from someone
who has not posted (often) here yet will be extremely careful
with that purchase.

Ofcourse if someone is sellings things and not living up to them
or there are other problems please let one of us wranglers
know as soon as possible. Thank you.

Neo and Agenst Smith are the same person, but that might just be the java talking. And I think it would of been better minus Rave/Sex scene and the the freud look alike could of been casted better. Other than that it was everything I expected it to be - I think 'A Kids Story' from the Animatrix would of made a better matrix sequal.

Do you always look at it in javacode? :P

I think this is the first reference I've made to java....but yes! I look at everything in java.

Agreed on the minus Rave scene. Love scene may stay. Personally
I don't think Neo & Smith are the same thing. That doesnt' seem
to make sense.

Can you explain why you believe this to be the case?