What options are available for shooting HD—not HDV on mini DV tapes?

I have a client who wants uncompressed, true HD, so mini DV tapes are out.

Is there a cheaper solution than the KONA II card and a Wafian HR-1?

I edit in FCP Studio on a G5 Power PC Dual 2.5 GHz and Apple XServe RAID.

you could rent a Panasonic 1400 DVCPRO HD deck.

Use the HD-SDI output...and TC outputs...go directly into the deck.

Roll both HDV (for a cheap backup) and DVCPRO HD at the same time.

Then in post...use the firewire to FCP and ingest the full 100 megabit quality HD.

When done...re-rent the deck for a final HD output.

Thanks, Kevin.
I was under the impression that I couldn't use firewire for HD.
Someone else suggested that I do the following:
1. Shoot in 24p (preferred)
2. Imports the HDV to FCP
3. If you have the latest version of FCP, covert using Apple ProRes 422
4. If you have an older version use Apple Intermediate Codec (AIC)
5. Deliver the program as either a Quick Time Movie (ProRes422 or AIC file)
Does this make sense to you?

I have a client who wants uncompressed, true HD...

you could rent a Panasonic 1400 DVCPRO HD deck.

Sorry but that's not uncompressed. DVCPRO HD is not uncompressed... in fact, there's no such thing as a common HD format that is NOT compressed. Even the very top of the line HDCAM SR format which records to a $300 tape is still compressed.

For Patrick, I would have to ask why does the client feel they need "uncompressed" HD. I'll bet you dinner at Guero's Taco Bar on South Congress that you could shoot HDV straight to tape, then deliver that video in some other format and the client will never know the difference.

So-called "true" HD is nothing more than a marketing term. HDV is real HD, and it's put together the same way as HDCAM, the most commonly accepted (and compressed) HD format in the business. The vast majority of folks who resist HDV have never actually seen what it's capable of delivering.

I was under the impression that I couldn't use firewire for HD.Sure you can. The most common HD formats (HDV, DVCPRO HD, XDCAM HD) are all supported by FireWire.

HD-SDI output will provide a raw, uncompressed signal, but whatever VTR it's plugged into at the other end will apply whatever compression is native to that particular format, be it DVCPRO HD, HDCAM or whatever.

Thanks, Kevin.
I was under the impression that I couldn't use firewire for HD.
Someone else suggested that I do the following:
1. Shoot in 24p (preferred)
2. Imports the HDV to FCP
3. If you have the latest version of FCP, covert using Apple ProRes 422
4. If you have an older version use Apple Intermediate Codec (AIC)
5. Deliver the program as either a Quick Time Movie (ProRes422 or AIC file)
Does this make sense to you?

So, Chris, this 5-step "solution" which was suggested by the client's "Board of Advisors in Waco" seems to bear out what you're saying. But do you think this would produce any better result than just shooting 30F onto mini DVs with my favorite presets and capturing with the HDV easy setup, as I usually do?

Hard for me to say as I don't use Final Cut, but many others here do, so I'll defer to them.

24F vs. 30F will produce different motion signatures, and that's purely a choice of aesthetics.

Anyone else out there who shoots HD using the SDI? Are there any economical solutions to bypass the mini DV tape compression without investing $20,000+for an HD recorder or renting one?

Not really... $17K is about the entry level (for the Wafian HR-1 recorder, which is 10-bit 4:2:2, see http://www.wafian.com/Pricing.htm). The bottom line here really is, how come HDV won't suffice for your purposes. You had stated that your client wants "uncompressed, true HD" but as I pointed out in my reply above, *all* HD formats are indeed compressed, so it sounds like your client has a bit of a learning curve to catch up on. HDV will most likely suit their purposes just fine (remember it's not about numbers, compression or other tech specs; instead, it's all about the image). Theirs nothing wrong with HDV. Hope this helps,

They've been getting their material on a P2 card with the HVX200, which I believe applies a DVCPro codec as well.

I submitted mine using the workflow recommended by the client's tech gurus:
Shot 24p. Imported to FCP. Converted using Apple ProRes 422. Exported a QuickTime self-contained movie directly from my timeline and burned the file to a DVD.

I'm waiting for their feedback.

Chris, I hope you win our bet and I'll gladly buy lunch at Guero's Taco Bar.

I'll let you know what they say.

Thanks.

Is there a cheaper solution than the KONA II card and a Wafian HR-1?
If you are using the setup for a studio or one location purpose then there sure is. Just stick a Decklink HD in your PowerMac and connect a few SATA raids to it(such as sonnett 500p, etc.).
Use the Xserve Raid as project storage since it really is not as well suited for uncompressed HD capture.

If you want a cheaper and (somewhat)mobile solution like a Wafian then then new IO HD + MacBook Pro and some storage would work. It is not "Uncompressed", but it is full raster ProRes codec which is much... MUCH better than HDV in my experience, especially for effects shots.

Yes, pure uncompressed is very very nice indeed, but is overkill for most scenerios. I've shot a good deal of uncompressed footage and have put it side by side with HDV material besides from a slight color saturation difference as well as a slight resolution difference, they look pretty close to the standard eye. In ohter words, I bet you can shoot HDV and then transcode to another codec and deliver on another format and no one will know the difference.

I have been exploring mobile uncompressed-based capture solutions, and the AJA Io-HD seems to be the way to go at the moment.

In ohter words, I bet you can shoot HDV and then transcode to another codec and deliver on another format and no one will know the difference.
In a lot of cases yes, especially if you are going to output/present in SD.
However if you are doing anything to the image except a cuts only edit,
then you will begin to see blocking, etc. Also...check the edges of chroma
keyed objects. There is quite a bit of difference.

Well, I would definitely suggest editing it in something like ProRes or edit natively and then do your cc and final render out to ProRes or UC.

I would recommend using the Nattress Chroma Sharpening filters before your cc ... they smooth and sharpen chroma artifacting of HDV chroma subsampling.

Galvin,
What does "cc" stand for?

Galvin,
What does "cc" stand for?

Color correction...

So changing the subject... if I get back down to Texas to see a friend are these tacos any good...

Moving to Missouri from California I find that most Mexican places are not Mexican places even if they're better they're just a better made Taco Bell...

Thanks, Gary.

Yeah, they're good. But for my money Cura's are the best. Also Las Manitas.

Yeah, they're good. But for my money Cura's are the best. Also Las Manitas.

Thanks, I'll have to check it out... that is when I'm finished with the latest script... I go see my friend and she corrects all the mistakes... grammar, and gives me some impute..

Ah sucks just thought... she finally got on the net....

OK, among some other minor stuff, looks like my client likes the footage. Thanks to all of you who informed and enlightened me.

Does anyone know what they might be wanting when they say...

"Overall the camera image looks great. Contrast maybe the only thing that could improve. The vague HD term is “pop” – where the image leaps off the screen, and right now it looks just slightly flat. Maybe in the color correction or contrast could this help."

Could this be addressed by the "Nattress Chroma Sharpening Filters" that Michael mentioned?

right now it looks just slightly flat

That could be the wonderful 1/3 chip DOF, the preset you used or both.

Post a frame and I'll CC it for you with instructions.

Thanks, Will.
This was shot in 24f, using the OlegWarm preset. Then converted to ProRes422.

Hey Patrick, check your pixel aspect ratio... thanks for the glimpse of the Hill Country; I haven't been out to Dripping or Driftwood in quite awhile... or Wimberley for that matter... always nice to see though.

this is overkill in some ways, but makes it look interesting.
watch out for the harsh backlight next time. It's hard to
fight the sun!!

Give me your email and I'll send an After Effects file
so you can just relink the image file with your video.

Sorry Guys.

Chris, I'm trying to upload a corrected pixel aspect ratio version.

One downside to working and living in the hill country is my ISP sucks. Waiting for uploads is like waiting for the Safeway truck to unload.

Will, its: patrickbyers@mac.com

here's another w/more background detail retained.

Thanks for that, Will. So, brighten dark areas and apply a gaussian blur to background?

Chris, here's a better pixel aspect ratio. (the grocery truck actually finished before my upload :)

Very nice AE work. With people like you, who needs 35mm adapters! lol
It'll be interesting to see the same effects applied to a video clip though....the leaves just above her head would be a challenge

the leaves just above her head would be a challenge

Not if she isn't moving. Works well for static interview shots, but not
car chases! :)

Just use a mask to tell AE what layer you want revealed, the one in focus
is white and the blured layer is black. THis was a quick mask, but you could
make a better one in Photoshop, etc.

We've used it for dolly shots with one direction of movement and just
animated the mask. works pretty well...and cheap!

Thanks for the tip Will.

Here's my try!

OK guys, I did it with Graham Nattress's Big Box of Tricks. I applied his "G-Contrast" to my footage and it "brightened" it remarkably. It may be that, because I used the OlegWarm preset from Oleg Kalyan while shooting (great warm color saturation), one of the settings might have "dialed down" the contrast. Or maybe I just needed to throw more light at it—after all this is HD. At any rate, everyone was pleased and I think we opened some eyes to the XLH-1 miniDV with ProRes422 vs. the AVX200 and its P2 card.

Thanks for all your help and ideas.

Chris, let me know when you're ready for tacos.

Patrick, When possible you should try and stop by and look at the H1 with our mini35 adapter. The ability to separate subject from background is really great with this thing and IMO the H1 works much cleaner than the HVX200 with the mini35.