Hi folks,
I am currently assigned to film a series of arts coucil school plays, slightly different project than I've done in the past.
I went along for a 'reccy' last night but cross wires between the arts council/schools and the client I'm doing the work for meant I would end up filming the first night (having never done this kind of thing before). Fortunately I had my camera, tape batteries etc!

What I need to deliver is a finished set of DVD's - authored...again having usually delivered only edited footage to clients I've yet to get my hands into compressing and DVD authoring I presume I my workflow will be FCP - Compressor - DVD studio Pro (no soundtrack is required). Alternatively I may jump onto iDVD if Studio Pro is too much to quickly absorb given a fairly tight deadline...(the client will design and produce the artwork/covers etc)

Couple of things I noticed last night (and I've been told not to worry to much about this being perfect - it's for the parents to see their kids perform on stage...but still, I'd like to do the best I can):

*Really hard to white balance (I was literally told as the audience were pouring into the theatre) given the darkness of the room and atmospheric lighting....out of desperation I even zoomed in on ladies white head scarf sitting on the front row. I went for a general average (WB'ing against white card and items of clothing in the room...there literally was nothing else).

*The same client filmed this himself last year (I think he may have used the Canon XL1) and advised me to film this handheld rather than static tripod. I had to film at the back of the theatre rather than up at the front (there was just no room) so unfortunately this meant a slight zoom for a full stage shot or extreme zoom for the one or two close ups.
Now this HD100 with the V lock batteries isn't a light camera!! I was fighting this throughout the performance and I found it pretty tough to hold. move around then adjust the zoom occasionally whilst it was balancing on one arm! :(
So...I may either use a fluid head tripod for the next performances (given a type of facsimile handheld look) or have it on my shoulder.
In the ideal world I'd already own a steadicam....but that just isn't possible at the moment (the budget for this wouldn't run to hiring one either).

Perhaps this should've been posted in a different section of the boards but I was interested in how people may have dealt with this situation using the HD100/200 camera's - which are'nt necessarily a handheld camera.

I'd really appreciate any feedback before my next shoot.
Cheers.

Hello David.

I shoot some things in theaters my self, too, and I definitely need a tripod. Some shows last for a couple of hours and holding the camera steady for such a long time, can be a hassle.
One thing you can do, if it's possible, in order to change the point of view, is to pick up the camera and move the tripod onto a slightly different location.
I don't know which head you've got on the tripod, but at least a manfrotto/bogen 501, I think you should get.

About the white balance, you've got three positions on the WB switch: A,B,PRESET. If I were you I would assign 5600K to PRESET, and then assign to one of the "user assignable buttons", White balance preset.
Then, when your switch is on PRESET, if you click that "user assignable button" you picked, it will alternate from 5600K to 3200K.....You can use this as a sort of a "panic" solution...whenever you don't have enough time, or an object to do white balance, go to PRESET and choose the one which matches your scenario best, be it either 5600K or 3200K.

About the DVD encoding, the best solution is FCP>compressor>dvd studio pro, but if there's no enough time, you can export your sequence from final cut on to a Quicktime movie (doesn't need to be "self-contained") and then import it to iDVD, which gives great results most of time.

Don't know if I've helped you, but I tried!
Cheers.

Yes - that's really helpful Sergio.
I took a WB a few times and it averaged around 2500k mark...quite a darkly lit stage, though the colours seemed fairly representative on the lcd.
I have a Libec LS38 tripod - the fluid head seems pretty good (pans are very smooth on this but not relevant to this project). It would be a pain trying to get the tripod level as I'm on a slant at the back of the room. I think somebody on this forum mentioned a couple of US shows use a fluid tripod head to convey a type of handheld look (NYPD blue et al). My arm nearly went dead towards the end of the hour and how I didn't drop the camera I'll never know!

About the DVD encoding, the best solution is FCP>compressor>dvd studio pro, but if there's no enough time, you can export your sequence from final cut on to a Quicktime movie (doesn't need to be "self-contained") and then import it to iDVD, which gives great results most of time.

Will iDVD create the necessary codec for viewing on standard DVD players?
I've had a quick look at exporting from FCP to Compressor - seems relatively straightforward if I were to use Best Settings 16:9 90 mins (the show and extra bits is no more than an hour) rather than Advanced 8 bit uncompressed or DV Pal Anamorphic (which is the settings in FCP).

DVD studio pro looks like it requires some head scratching, first off at least.
For these DVD's there will be no menu's - just 'play the movie' (I can't help thinking of that German Pig from Shrek everytime I see that) and a looped segment from the play itself.

Thanks Sergio.

Wait, did he *advise* you to shoot it handheld, or *tell* you "I want a handheld look"? If the latter I can understand, but if he was just advising you I would have said "Uh huh, okay" and brought in a tripod anyway. No way am I doing an "always-on" handheld shot for 2-3 hours if I can help it.

DVD studio pro looks like it requires some head scratching, first off at least.
For these DVD's there will be no menu's - just 'play the movie'

Hi David.

Tim Dashwood made two good posts in this thread which is sort of a "DVD Studio Pro for beginners" for making a DVD with no menu:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=62577

If you have any further questions when you actually go to use this, just start a new thread over in the Mac forum.

I have shot a number of dance recitals, though not with the HD100.

However, I don't see how you could do a play without a tripod. I have seen many theater shows videotaped professionally. the only time I've seen handheld cameras is for roving cameras. These shows have used 4 to 9 cameras.

I think anything that is shot handheld would have to be edited. I can't imagine how you could get 20 minutes, let alone an hour of decent video shooting hand held.

For white balance in a theater I always use an indoor preset. This is the only way to get the lighting effects the way they are intended. (In very rare situations with certain lights, a different white balance would be needed.)

The only time I found hand held was best for a show was in a small room and I was using a small Sony handycam. I also used a wide angle adapter and the steadyshot. It looked okay, but it was tiring, too.

I think shooting this kind of stuff is generally a no-win situation. It's impossible to make it look really good. Exposure is a big problem as lights change, as are hot reflections everywhere... especially on faces... and red lights.

One thing that can help a lot is to setup a camera b, a one-chip camera is fine, and get a wide-angle shot of the entire stage. The camera can be clamped at the apron or perhaps on the front of a balcony. This gives a cutaway for the whole show which gives you a little latitude in getting some good shots with the main camera without having to worry about every second of continuous video. (Depending on the kind of show, the cutaway also can work in the wings, looking onto the stage. In this case, the very different lighting and flares disguise the different camera.)

The one time I saw an excellent video of a dance school recital (The Nutcracker) it turned out that they used three experienced camera operators and all had done the show several times in past years. The camera work was as choreographed... or maybe more so... than the show itself.

On the handheld vs. tripod issue, it really depends on the material. For a regular theatrical production like a musical or play it's alllll tripods, I put 4-5 cameras as close together as possible at the back of the house with long enough lenses to get at least a bust shot on someone onstage. The reason I want them close together is because if you're sitting in the audience watching a play or musical, your point of view is from the same place the whole show, and the whole thing is blocked and choreographed for an audience that's looking at the show straight on, so it really doesn't benefit from a variety of camera angles.

My camera assignments would be a full wide lockdown and a "dynamic wide" sharing the middle, the dynamic wide is getting just tight enough that it's cutting off any dead space, it's the primary wide shot, the lockdown is just in case of "suprises". One camera is an iso tight of whoever is the current "lead" character onstage, and the other 1-2 cameras are chasing dialog and/or being creative.

Dance studios and band concerts benefit a lot more from a variety of camera angles, for those I'll do no more than 2 cameras in the back, both manned, one getting creative wides and the other creative tights, and a couple handhelds up front working different shots. If I can get a jib I'll use that as my wide and the two cameras on tripods will both be getting tights instead.

The camera work was as choreographed... or maybe more so... than the show itself.

Nah, it's just a matter of knowing what's coming up next and getting the shot, not necessarily making up shot sheets for the whole show. I worked on a DVD of a theatrical show where we shot a lot of different nights and by the end of the run my line cut was pretty much perfect, very little editing necessary. Didn't plan it that way, it just happened because we all just knew the show so well by the end of the run.

Thanks everybody. This is a lot tougher than I thought it might be.
Planning and experience would've been really helpful but I was literally thrown in to it.
David - thanks for the link I shall view them this morning (and post any further queries in the relevant section of the boards)...however that's the least of my worries this morning...my camera is not initialising on FCP and am about to start editing!! I went white and thought I may have blown those ever so fragile firewire ports (since blowing one last year I'm extra careful and have added a FW isolator). When the camera is on however FCP loads up without the missing external firewire device, so it may not be that...I'll head over to the mac threads :(

However, I don't see how you could do a play without a tripod. I have seen many theater shows videotaped professionally. the only time I've seen handheld cameras is for roving cameras. These shows have used 4 to 9 cameras.

I think anything that is shot handheld would have to be edited. I can't imagine how you could get 20 minutes, let alone an hour of decent video shooting hand held.

Absolutely...glad this has been confirmed to me. I can see someone getting away with a camcorder right on the edge of the stage but at the back with a camera the size of the HD100 - not wise.

One thing that can help a lot is to setup a camera b, a one-chip camera is fine, and get a wide-angle shot of the entire stage. The camera can be clamped at the apron or perhaps on the front of a balcony. This gives a cutaway for the whole show which gives you a little latitude in getting some good shots with the main camera without having to worry about every second of continuous video. (Depending on the kind of show, the cutaway also can work in the wings, looking onto the stage. In this case, the very different lighting and flares disguise the different camera.

I do have a small pannasonic (NV***?) 3 CCD camcorder which I could mount on a stationary tripod next to me at the back - never having edited two camera's I'd be a little anxious over synching the footage up, timecode not one of my strong points at the moment.

On the handheld vs. tripod issue, it really depends on the material. For a regular theatrical production like a musical or play it's alllll tripods, I put 4-5 cameras as close together as possible at the back of the house with long enough lenses to get at least a bust shot on someone onstage. The reason I want them close together is because if you're sitting in the audience watching a play or musical, your point of view is from the same place the whole show, and the whole thing is blocked and choreographed for an audience that's looking at the show straight on, so it really doesn't benefit from a variety of camera angles.

Is this for a safety net Stephen - if these 4/5 camera's (you have a slightly larger budget than I!!) are sat together is there going to be any noticeable difference in the shots or are they pointed at different locations on the stage (rather than all wide shots)?

Nah, it's just a matter of knowing what's coming up next and getting the shot, not necessarily making up shot sheets for the whole show. I worked on a DVD of a theatrical show where we shot a lot of different nights and by the end of the run my line cut was pretty much perfect, very little editing necessary. Didn't plan it that way, it just happened because we all just knew the show so well by the end of the run.

Unfortunately these are all seperate performances by different schools (although they share 2 plays so I'll get at least one viewing before the next one...I have rehearsals I can go to also).
I know there are a couple of 'shakes' as I cradled the HD100 in one hand whilst reaching out to zoom in/out. I'm thinking of a few 'creative' transitions within the process.
Yes - I was recommended to leave the tripod at home and go for handheld...of course in retrospect I could've achieved a similar but more disciplined effect using a fluid tripod.

It's all experience I guess - hopefully (if I fix the fw issue) I can try my best in the editing process, but it hasn't been easy!

Many thanks for the help - sorry about the delay in replying but I guess we're on opposite sides of this planet!

David ...

Don't worry about synchronising footage from multiple cameras - I do it all the time. You just match the soundtracks of the two (or more) clips on the timeline by listening for the delay or echo between them and nudging one or the other until they 'snap' together - you can hear the difference, its quite obvious when it happens. You'll find that the clips will stay in sync for the duration of an act, unless of course you are shooting HDV and you get a tape dropout, in which case you have to re-synchronise after the dropout.

Yes, synching is not hard. You can also look at the waveform. Often the beginning of a word or sound is easy to match up.

If there are pictures being taken, usually the flashes can be matched up.

Movements are easy to synch also. It could be a raised arm, a step, a jump.

If the cameras are near each other, you can get synch as someone passes an object, enters out of a door, etc.

After you do it a few times, it's easy. Though sometimes it takes a few minutes to find the place to synch if there isn't an immediately obvious point.

As far as the taping, you will get better and better fairly quickly. Then, stay focused, because once you get comfortable it's easy for the mind to wander and lose the concentration that is necessary to stay on top of the action.

Thanks Tony and Jack...I initially thought I might perhaps synch it that way but the method may have been dismissed by the more professional and experienced on these boards (though obviously not in a condescending manner :) )

I've sampled audio for years and that requires micro fine tuning with the ear so I don't expect any problems with this.
Glad this was suggested - I can take the smaller camcorder along tomorrow evening...but that then brings up another issue - the main footage will be shot progressively whilst the camcorder is [horrible!] interlaced. I guess I could try my hand at deinterlacing...and I will also have to letterbox the 4:3 footage. Is this sounding like a not so good idea now!?!?

Cheers.

Is this for a safety net Stephen - if these 4/5 camera's (you have a slightly larger budget than I!!) are sat together is there going to be any noticeable difference in the shots or are they pointed at different locations on the stage (rather than all wide shots)?

Each camera has different assignments, so each one has a different shot. More cameras, even in the same location, gives you more flexibility to get different "levels" of wide, as well as having several tight shots. One camera might be on a bust shot of one character, another camera tight on another character, another on a 2-shot showing both, another showing everyone onstage in case someone talks who isn't in a tight shot, and a lockdown showing the entire stage in case someone enters the scene. The trick to avoiding jump cuts is being able to get tight enough with your tight shots. If you're doing it with HD100s you can try using 2/3" lenses on your tight shots, since 2/3" lenses use longer focal lengths than lenses made for the JVC. Most 2/3" lenses will also have a zoom extender that will let you get even tighter at the expense of two stops of aperture. An excellent tripod and studio-style controls are *essential* when you're working that tight, however.

My event coverage philosophy mostly evolved from working on sports coverage, if you watch sporting events on TV you've probably seen many cases where there are several cameras in the same location that will be cut together. For baseball, you'll have two cameras in centerfield, a pitcher-batter shot and a tight shot of the batter. For sports like basketball and hockey you'll have a game cam (the main wide shot of the play) and a high-tight that is following the action tight for replay and gets tight shots of players during stoppages.

5 cameras would be the minimum I would prefer to work with when doing something taped for editing, since each camera operator is working "blind," basically freelancing, then I have to piece together the whole mess in post and hope I have all the shots I need. More cameras just makes it more likely I'll have a shot and not need to cut to the lockdown camera. I can get away with fewer cameras when I'm switching live to tape, since my camera operators have tallies and returns and I'm talking to them. Even being able to do a basic line cut for editing later helps enormously.

5 cameras would be the minimum I would prefer to work with when doing something taped for editing, since each camera operator is working "blind," basically freelancing, then I have to piece together the whole mess in post and hope I have all the shots I need. More cameras just makes it more likely I'll have a shot and not need to cut to the lockdown camera. I can get away with fewer cameras when I'm switching live to tape, since my camera operators have tallies and returns and I'm talking to them. Even being able to do a basic line cut for editing later helps enormously.

(lockdown = static main wide angle shot??)

I have nowhere near that type of set up at the moment Stephen. And I guess you'd require at least one or two assistants for that set up?
I believe FCP handles multicam editing fairly well, though having never used it I couldn't comment.
Looking into the possibility of adding a wide angle adaptor (rather than a very expensive 35mm lens!) which would help a little on these shoots.
Sorry Stephen - not sure in what context you mean by 'switching live to tape' and 'basic line cut'?

So, bearing in mind I'm more than likely using the one camera (placing the camcorder to one side for a moment) do you think it best to have the tripod on fluid head movement so I can achieve the handheld look but also minimising shake (as I'm towards the back any zooms as I'm sure you are all aware are exacerbated).

A vital topic that has not been mentioned so far - audio !

I find that even with multiple cameras, the video is the easiest part of recording a stage show. Getting good audio so that you can clearly hear all of the lines spoken/sung and all of the sound effects and music is not so easy. A good video where you can't clearly hear the performers is worse than useless.

A camera or three at the back of the hall is never going to give you good sound and plugging into the PA mixer, assuming they are using one and you get a good feed, means you have to accept the sound mans mix and level, and you may end up with just a recording of the radio mics and a few sound effects (its happened to me !)

At minimum you need a stereo pair of mics in front of the stage with balanced XLR mic cables to your camera, which obviously have to be laid in, gaffered down and tested before the audience arrives. Forget radio mikes - they are less reliable than hardwired mikes and you might conflict with radio mike channels already in use for the show.

This is OK for small stages. For larger ones you need more mics across the front of the stage to get decent coverage, so then you need a mixer to handle the extra mikes, more cables or maybe a single 4 or 8 way snake (multicore) cable, and perhaps a multichannel digital recorder so you can do a proper mix-down in post and then ... etc. etc. - it soon gets out of hand and more than a one-man-band can handle without help.

I recently recorded the musical Oklahoma! in a fairly large theatre using 2 HDV camcorders, 4 mikes, mixer, 15m snake and every balanced mike cable I could lay my hands on. Just setting up was tiring enough even before the recording started. But the resulting DVD looked and sounded great and the customer was delighted and ordered load of copies so it was worth all the effort. I was very pleased with myself but it did leave me wondering if I would want to tackle something so ambitious on my own in the future.

Good luck with the show

Tony

^^ Indeed Tony. My stomach's doing cartwheels just thinking of all that (though from past experience it sometimes best not to think too much and just go ahead and do it).
I asked about feeds from the mixing desk (right next to me in a booth as it happens) but this just isn't required for these smallish projects. Initially thought I would be at the front filming but as I'm about 15/20 metres back from the stage the audio isn't 'dynamic' to say the least.

I have one Sennheiser ME66/K6 and one Shure SM58 - I could use the ME66 but I won't be able to lay this down and placed in front of the stage unfortunately - recommend using this anyway (in place of the on board mic....though I don't expect that much difference at that distance).
For future, slightly more pro gigs I will try this mic out (perhaps purchasing another?) - I have a couple of Spirit Folio FX desks (8 channel and a 16 channel) which could be utilised. A Digital Mixer is also on my [ever expanding] wish list (one which I could facilitate making music via Logic et al). I even offered to add a short soundtrack to this but it really isn't required (school budgets just don't extend).
Do you have two HD100's Tony? It's bugging me that I haven't a backup/secondary camera and actually thought about the Z1 (some jobs require that look) although a second HD*** would be preferable.
Not sure if I've come across a multi-core snake though??

With all that's said above and considering where I'm placed; what equipment I'm using; lack of experience and very quick turnaround, you folks best wish me all the luck!!

On a more positive note I've trashed a Quicktime receipt file and hey presto FCP us again seeing my camera...a blown firewire/FCP acting up at this stage would've probably made me throw in the towel in this game!

Cheers.

David ...

I use an Alesis firewire mixer which I sometimes plug into an old VAIO laptop to check levels and record multiple channels if I think there might be problems getting a good live mix, but its just another box to carry in and set up.

A snake is just 4 or 8 (or more) balanced mike cables bundled up into one cable with a stagebox with XLR sockets at one end for your stage mikes and XLR plugs at the other end for your mixer. Much easier to set up than a load of single cables. I got mine from Thomann in Germany.

However, I'm beginning to think it might be easier just to buy one or two Zoom H4 portable digital recorders and set them up near the stage using either their internal mikes or my existing mikes - simpler to set up but a little trickier in post.

My main camcorder is a Sony FX1 and I've just bought a little Sony HC7 palmcorder that looks totally ridiculous on a tripod next to the FX1 but the HD images it delivers are as near identical to the FX1s as to allow me to freely intercut the footage without conflict, as I have just done with Oklahoma!

I use the HC7 to do the wide shot covering the whole stage, and re-frame it occasionally to centre on the current action on stage allowing leeway for unexepcted (forgotten!) entrances. The quality from the HC7 is extraordinary, and, at £712 a go I can see myself running a third camera in the very near future.

Tony

Is the FC7 an interlaced camera? Sounds like something worth looking into for a second camera perhaps (and for jobs that may require a different look).

I use the HC7 to do the wide shot covering the whole stage, and re-frame it occasionally to centre on the current action on stage allowing leeway for unexepcted (forgotten!) entrances.

Tell me about unexpected entrances....you can't go into this blindly (as I did the other night)...just hope it comes across creative...I will say it was done in the dogma style!

Would the H4 portable digital internal mic do a decent job? I'll have a quick google of those later.
Cheers tony.

David ...

Theres a very interesting thread about the Zoom H4 here -

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=76850

- seems like the internal mikes are pretty good for its size and price.

All Sony HDV camcorders are 1080 interlaced but most of the 'pro' and 'prosumer' models have some sort of 24/25p mode that simulate a movie look. The little HC7, being a 'consumer' palmcorder does not have a progressive mode, which is OK by me because its not a feature I'd ever use. I can't see the point in downgrading the cams ability to resolve motion by trying to emulate a movie camera. I much prefer the fluid motion you get from interlaced recordings and find progressive very juddery and distracting - its just me !
Oddly, I recently watched a demo recording from one of the new JVC HD200 camcorders running at 720 50p and despite the higher frame rate it stil looked juddery too me - not sure what was going on there !

As for unexpected entrances, its always best to get to at least one rehearsal before you shoot a stage show so that you have a chance of catching all of the important action with at least one camera. But you'll find with experience that you can busk your way through a show you haven't seen before just by keeping the zoom a bit wider and keeping one eye on the stage. If something unexpected happens out of frame, a quick camera movement is a dead giveaway. Just smoothly zoom or pan to include the action as if that was the way you'd intended to do it ! What really feels great is when you know an actor is just about to enter, you zoom out or pan very smoothly, and the actor walks straight into the frame in exactly the right place - looks very professional.

Of course if you've got 2 cameras and 4 audio channels to deal with its not always possible to be so slick, but at least its good to know you've got a static wide shot to fall back on.
As with everyting its all down to practice and experience.

Tony

Thanks Tony - the way you feel about the 25p look is the way I feel about interlaced look - but it's down to what you prefer I guess. You certainly can't go for fast pans on this format but you get used to learing how to deal with it I guess....but all those arguement for and against are for other threads I guess :)

If something unexpected happens out of frame, a quick camera movement is a dead giveaway. Just smoothly zoom or pan to include the action as if that was the way you'd intended to do it !

Ha ha! I inadvertantly did a few of these the other evening, knowing full well a quick pan/zoom out would look obvious. Hope I get away with it.
Thanks for the link - I've bookmarked it.
Cheers.

*Really hard to white balance (I was literally told as the audience were pouring into the theatre) given the darkness of the room and atmospheric lighting....out of desperation I even zoomed in on ladies white head scarf sitting on the front row. I went for a general average (WB'ing against white card and items of clothing in the room...there literally was nothing else).

Hi David,
Most of my work is filming stage events.
Make sure to bring a white card & Siemens Chart. Ask the lighting guy then to run through the Cuelist and to call up the brightest white lighting Cue he has programmed.
Zoom in on the white card and set white balance and Iris.
Use that moment also to focus different area's on stage and remember your values you are balancing in min/max. This is done in 15 minutes. Make sure to ask and schedule this preparation time to the stage manager/producer.
This turned out to be a job-saver, because while the stage is dark and you see a performer coming up you can already set the focus pretty right, without being off completly when the light goes up to correct just a little to have it perfect. It are these moments which are crucial, were you have no room to focus and Iris your shot, because it will be always too late otherwise.

Regards, Marc.

And yes Tripod is crucial for professional shots. Handheld is nice for some inbetween shots on stage itself when action happens.

*Really hard to white balance (I was literally told as the audience were pouring into the theatre) given the darkness of the room and atmospheric lighting....out of desperation I even zoomed in on ladies white head scarf sitting on the front row. I went for a general average (WB'ing against white card and items of clothing in the room...there literally was nothing else).

Hi David,
Most of my work is filming stage events.
Make sure to bring a white card & Siemens Chart. Ask the lighting guy then to run through the Cuelist and to call up the brightest white lighting Cue he has programmed.
Zoom in on the white card and set white balance and Iris.
Use that moment also to focus different area's on stage and remember your values you are balancing in min/max. This is done in 15 minutes. Make sure to ask and schedule this preparation time to the stage manager/producer.
This turned out to be a job-saver, because while the stage is dark and you see a performer coming up you can already set the focus pretty right, without being off completly when the light goes up to correct just a little to have it perfect. It are these moments which are crucial, were you have no room to focus and Iris your shot, because it will be always too late otherwise.

Regards, Marc.

I will tomorrow - but I was merely shaking the hands before the performance started the other evening, there really to get my bearings etc. It was as the theatre doors opened I was told cross wires meant I should be filming then (having never done this before).
Fortunately I had a few minutes to a very quick WB and zoom on a object on stage to set my focus. There was also somebody giving a talk at the beginning under bright lights so I could set my focus here.

Still, lots of things learned very quickly - and viewing the shots back there is a lot of shaky stuff unfortunately...the tripod will be with me tomorrow - I will keep the camera pretty static with only zooms and light pans...possibly take the locks off the pan and tilts - the tripod has very nice fluid motion.
I guess there is no real way of hiding these shakes (mainly on the zooms).
A focus ring and remote zoom (are these available??) would also have been helpful. Also a shame there wasn't anywhere closer to the stage to set up...the audio isn't good.
Thanks Marc.

I asked about feeds from the mixing desk (right next to me in a booth as it happens) but this just isn't required for these smallish projects. Initially thought I would be at the front filming but as I'm about 15/20 metres back from the stage the audio isn't 'dynamic' to say the least.

...

Also a shame there wasn't anywhere closer to the stage to set up...the audio isn't good.


Hi David.

I had a thought concerning your audio problem. From your info, I take it that they are not using the mixing desk at all (?). Are they still using some sort of microphone set-up which is connected to speakers?

At a recent event I couldn't get any sort of XLR connection from their mixing desk (all taken), but I checked the speakers and they each had an XLR output, so I connected to one of those (and totally secured my cable so that nobody would trip).

It could be worth checking out. Consistently good audio can definitely help the viewer to "ride over" the occasional visual glitch.

Hi David - I'm right next to the 'tech' booth (I know they have a light mixing desk but I cannot confirm about a mixing desk...there are no mic's on stage just the odd bit of soundtrack/effects) and I'm at rehearsals tomorrow. I'll ask...the audio is very lame on the playbacks today...really lame.
Aside from the shakes though the footage (colours match fine) is pretty good for SD. Bit of trouble with DVD studio Pro (posted in the mac forum) but it's another day's learning curve.
Thanks David.

A note about audio.

Even if they are not using microphones, there are probably built-in mic lines running from the stage area to the console.

You could put a couple of mic at the apron of the stage (on stands in front of the stage to prevent vibrations) and plug these into the built-in lines. Then you plug lines out from the console into the camera.

These may not be available, but it's worth asking.

If the show is mic'd, you can sometimes get improved audio by putting a mic in front of or pointing a shotgun at a speaker.

Also, a shotgun on the camera will be better than an omni or built-in camera mic.

Also, a small mixer before the camera can help getting good levels when using not-the-best sound.

If nothing else is possible, a small wireless at the front of the apron will give you better audio than from the back of the house.

In some theater there are already mics hanging over the stage (used for glee club performances or whatever) that only have to be turned on. (Or there may not be mics, but there will be cables hanging to plug mics into, and the mics are in a cabinet somewhere.)

If you do a lot of this, a couple of audio technica boundary mics you could put on the front of the stage might be worth getting.

Just by considering all the possibilities, you will find something that works in the kinds of places you tape.

And I guess you'd require at least one or two assistants for that set up?

I'm not sure about your definition of "assistant." Crew consists of 3-4 camera ops and a director.

Sorry Stephen - not sure in what context you mean by 'switching live to tape' and 'basic line cut'?

Most of the work I do is out of a live production truck, so I'll be sitting at a switcher and cutting shots live. I do very little editing, and prefer to keep it that way. Cutting it live cuts your time commitment to a quarter or even less of what editing in post would take. Doing multicam out of a production truck also lets you match the colors on your cameras precisely and takes the burden of riding iris off the camera operators so they can focus on getting shots. I can record isos of individual cameras if I want, but unless I blatantly screw something up it's not necessary.


If you have to set your own audio for a theater thing, a PZM at each side of the stage works pretty well.

Hi David,

Now that you mention, yes indeed I use a remote zoom unit on my tripod. You simply can't do the same shots without it. I also flip open the LCD and leave the Focus assist most of the time. On my remote unit I configured the RET button to switch the Focus Assist, so I can check colors very quicly without messing around to search for the knobs in the dark on the camera, which introduces small shakes on the camera during shooting otherwise.

Marc

If the show is mic'd, you can sometimes get improved audio by putting a mic in front of or pointing a shotgun at a speaker.

Also, a shotgun on the camera will be better than an omni or built-in camera mic.

Thanks Jack. Not sure how well the HD100 on board mic performs (the jobs I've done in the past never really required audio...all going to soundtrack at a later date), though fortunately the HD100 has 2 XLR inputs.. I'm going to take along my ME66/K6 shotgun this evening and see if I can locate it centrally - I'll speak to the sound guys at the theatre but I feel I'll be limited with my options. I'm pretty sure I'm the only person documenting this performance in any way but it's an established theatre so I'd hope there were facilities for audio.
Anything which pointed over the audience (or was as close to the stage as possible) will help. The audience mainly consisted of parents the performing children who also had much younger siblings sat 'watching'...I've this baby crying every 10 or so minutes!
I've taken all these tips in - cheers.

I'm not sure about your definition of "assistant." Crew consists of 3-4 camera ops and a director.


Most of the work I do is out of a live production truck, so I'll be sitting at a switcher and cutting shots live. I do very little editing, and prefer to keep it that way. Cutting it live cuts your time commitment to a quarter or even less of what editing in post would take. Doing multicam out of a production truck also lets you match the colors on your cameras precisely and takes the burden of riding iris off the camera operators so they can focus on getting shots. I can record isos of individual cameras if I want, but unless I blatantly screw something up it's not necessary.


If you have to set your own audio for a theater thing, a PZM at each side of the stage works pretty well.

I was thinking at one stage you were a one man band Stephen - and you were somehow operating all those camera's not unlike those plate spinners you see on variety shows! I thought perhaps you had somebody there with you to assist you....but of course you have a full crew!

I used PZM's at college years ago and almost forgotten about them. It might be wise to jump on ebay for some second hand kits (the aforementioned PZM's and other mics).
Understand what you mean about switching live to tape - phew what a set up - I currently have a heavy bag or two and aching arms! Hopefully though I can widen my reach over the coming year/years. I can see it making absolute sense to do it that way given the right equipment.

I can record isos of individual cameras if I want, but unless I blatantly screw something up it's not necessary.

Forgive me if I'm incorrect but would this relate to shutter speed on the camera's eg a particularly fast moving sequence might follow a slow, melodramatic portion of a production?

Now that you mention, yes indeed I use a remote zoom unit on my tripod. You simply can't do the same shots without it. I also flip open the LCD and leave the Focus assist most of the time. On my remote unit I configured the RET button to switch the Focus Assist, so I can check colors very quicly without messing around to search for the knobs in the dark on the camera, which introduces small shakes on the camera during shooting otherwise.

Marc

I'm going to look into these also. It's night on impossible to see what you're doing in these dark theatres and every slight nudge is a bl**dy big shake on the picture...and when you're using one camera it isn't so hot.
I've had to get by through focusing on a performer in the rehearsal just before the play starts then not touching the focus again. Auto focus is not even worthing mentioning - I saw last years performace filmed by somebody else using this function and the camera never gets it right.
Focus ring would be ideal, but that means purchasing a mattebox et al and there's so many other things on my ever expanding shopping list!

Thanks everybody.

Forgive me if I'm incorrect but would this relate to shutter speed on the camera's eg a particularly fast moving sequence might follow a slow, melodramatic portion of a production?

Not sure what you mean, but I leave shutter at 1/60. It's so dang dark in those theaters that I need every bit of light gathering capability I can get. The exception is when there's a projector onstage. One production I shot used a projector to create a stained glass window for a scene and it wasn't quite in sync with the cameras so I had to turn on clearscan for just that scene.


I recommend is getting yourself some studio-style zoom and focus handles and a decent LCD you can strap on top of the camera as a viewfinder. Cine-style follow focus isn't the only way, or really even the best way to do it. Studio-style controls put the focus handle on an arm of your tripod so you're operating the camera from behind it instead of to the side. A lot more ergonomic for long shoots.

Not sure what you mean, but I leave shutter at 1/60. It's so dang dark in those theaters that I need every bit of light gathering capability I can get. The exception is when there's a projector onstage. One production I shot used a projector to create a stained glass window for a scene and it wasn't quite in sync with the cameras so I had to turn on clearscan for just that scene.


Stephen - it was me not quite understanding what you meant by 'isos' in your set up - guessed it might be related to shutter speed (you may have required different shutter speeds for certain style of shot or the movement changes on stage...might be going off an a tangent but for example a battle scene theatre production a la Saving Private Ryan/Gladiator).

I recommend is getting yourself some studio-style zoom and focus handles and a decent LCD you can strap on top of the camera as a viewfinder. Cine-style follow focus isn't the only way, or really even the best way to do it. Studio-style controls put the focus handle on an arm of your tripod so you're operating the camera from behind it instead of to the side. A lot more ergonomic for long shoots.

To be honest I didn't realise there was another option for focus handles - I'll look into those studio style focus pullers Stephen (do they fit most tripod?).

I'm guessing though for a top quality LCD field screen it could probably run into the thousands of pounds? The cam LCD and focus assist has been good to me for most jobs but for more critical work (and when I start to use the HDV function) then I'd have to look into one of these. Just very conscious of the budget at the moment - I simply cannot afford to increase substantially my set up. Matte box is close to the top of the list (hence the cine focus puller), but then so is a lighting set up; g-raid hard drive (for HDV back ups)....and so on.

I shot another performance last night and it went much, much bettter.
I used the fluid head tripod to convey the handheld look and it was far more succesful than holding the camera in your hands for over an hour (I guess my only option for ridding that first attempt of shakes is fade out/ins?)
I occasionally locked the tilt and shot the performance wide angle, or zoomed in slightly and carried out very slow pans across the cast - this worked well also. Not to keen on the tilt lock button though - you really have to be firm with this when unlocking (and kind of squeeze it) so you don't 'jump' the camera...few sweats but I managed to control this.
I took along a ME66/K6 mic and added this to the second XLR input on the camera (sat it on a boom stand right next to the sound booth pointing centrally - much sharper, cleared sound than the on board) - little bit unsure as to how this camera records sound though:

I presumed with 2 inputs you would have 4 channels of audio (2 Left and Rights?). I had quick capture to FCP before the rehearsals but FCP is just showing 2 channels (L and R). I've got this wrong....right?
Perhaps I shoud've used the ME66 instead of the onboard and not both of them (the on board picking up the audience more so than the ME66 due to it's location).

Must say overall this isn't easy...especially as a one man band. It's almost like shooting a movie (albeit very low budget!) in one take (did anyone here see Russian Ark!!!).
Concentration is the key. The slow pan outs when somebody unexpectedly appears on stage left (when you're zoomed in on right) creatively rescues you.

Thanks for all the help - it's been a very rewarding (and highly enjoyable) experience so far.

Stephen - it was me not quite understanding what you meant by 'isos' in your set up

Iso = Isolated. It's a sports broadcasting term meaning a camera is following around a single specific person regardless of what else is happening, and recording that camera feed to a tape deck with the expectation that that person is going to do something interesting. In a American football for example one camera will iso a wide receiver during the play in the hopes that the ball will be thrown to him, or in hockey you'll have an iso of the team's best goal scorer. In plays and concerts I'll have someone iso the lead performer so that I can show that performer at any time.

To be honest I didn't realise there was another option for focus handles - I'll look into those studio style focus pullers Stephen (do they fit most tripod?).

Yeah, you just need a tripod arm to attach it to, if you've been shooting ENG style you might only have one arm on your tripod, you'll want two.

As far as an LCD goes, something just good enough to frame and focus will work fine. Needs to be small enough to fit on the camera. It would be nice if JVC had a BNC viewfinder out like most pro cameras so you could see focus assist on an external display.

Matte box is close to the top of the list (hence the cine focus puller) but then so is a lighting set up; g-raid hard drive (for HDV back ups)....and so on.

To be honest, I've *never* seen anyone using a matte box on an ENG camera, and a follow focus just plain simply isn't necessary on 1/3" chips. Most of this cine-style gear for prosumer cameras seems to me to just be people trying to make themselves feel like they're "Real film DPs!" without really any practical utility. If you're getting flare, a piece of cardboard gaff-taped to your lens hood works just as well and is about a hundred times cheaper. Save your money for something that will actually make a difference in your shooting. I'd go for the lighting kit.

I presumed with 2 inputs you would have 4 channels of audio (2 Left and Rights?)

2 inputs is 2 inputs. HDV doesn't do 4-channel audio, at least not at acceptable quality (unless you consider 96 kbps MP2 acceptable!)

Regarding number of inputs of audio.

There are two inputs, each one is mono.

If you recorded two mics, one in each channel it's very easy to use the best one and get rid of the other one in your editor.

Unlock the tracks from one another. Delete the track you don't want. Copy the good track and put the copy where the deleted track was.

Some editors have provision for just silences one track and putting the other one to stereo. Sometimes the gain has to raised this way, and sometimes not.

Instead of deleting it you can also just move the unwanted audio to an extra track and silence it and save it, in case you need a piece incase something happens to the main audio (like a mic falls over or goes dead).


Regarding controls for zoom and focus that go on the tripod handles.... JVC sells some for the cameras and Varizoom makes some. They are not cheap but can be useful, expecially a zoom controller.

To be honest, I've *never* seen anyone using a matte box on an ENG camera, and a follow focus just plain simply isn't necessary on 1/3" chips. Most of this cine-style gear for prosumer cameras seems to me to just be people trying to make themselves feel like they're "Real film DPs!" without really any practical utility. If you're getting flare, a piece of cardboard gaff-taped to your lens hood works just as well and is about a hundred times cheaper. Save your money for something that will actually make a difference in your shooting. I'd go for the lighting kit

I'll agree with that, although the reason I got this specific camera was so I could work on a few film shorts which I think is perfect for indie film making. I guess the matte box and french flags do indeed add that extra pizazz to what you're doing and may or may not amplify the performers/actors/subjects confidence. Also handy for adding filters etc (although I have a screw on polariser which works well). Hey ho, this has been kicked back down to the bottom of the list!
Heard mixed reports about slightly larger LCD's whether they're worth the money (considering you can focus assist, frame and check colour on this camera's LCD). A decent quality field LCD would be very handy however (in more extreme bright conditions I can barely see the LCD image...I'll shop around and come back with one or two idea's (though not for some time - yes lights and dedicated raid drive are highest priority.

Ah - isolated...where was I going with my translation of ISO!!

Yeah, you just need a tripod arm to attach it to, if you've been shooting ENG style you might only have one arm on your tripod, you'll want two.


I'm assuming this would make you tripod almost like a lawnmower (for want of a better term) and you would zoom with your thumbs - is it this type of set up?

Regarding number of inputs of audio.

There are two inputs, each one is mono.

If you recorded two mics, one in each channel it's very easy to use the best one and get rid of the other one in your editor.

Unlock the tracks from one another. Delete the track you don't want. Copy the good track and put the copy where the deleted track was.

Some editors have provision for just silences one track and putting the other one to stereo. Sometimes the gain has to raised this way, and sometimes not.

Instead of deleting it you can also just move the unwanted audio to an extra track and silence it and save it, in case you need a piece incase something happens to the main audio (like a mic falls over or goes dead).

Ah - I thought it might record two stereo pairs (were you to use 2 stereo mics)...I guess the onboard mic is mono and splits this signal left and right? So deleting one track (say the onboard mic wasn't worth keeping) you would be left with one audio track which you then copy to another audio track (I'm using FCP) retaining a mono signal but using L and R channels....?
Maybe I read that you can create 4 channels but as Stephen mentioned, much poorer quality.

Cheers.