Just wondering if anyone has any more information about this new camera coming out? Was looking for Color spacing info, will the camera record in SD, what Mbps in HD, Firewire, weight, price, SDI? Im debating whether or not to buy the Panasonic HVX200 with its 4:2:2: and SD HD formats or just wait and get this Sony. Any info would be appreciated. Tim

There's a lot of information/speculation in this thread (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91594). The camera is for sure 4:2:0 at 35 Mbps VBR (with 4:2:2 over HD-SDI) and around $8,000 US. It's a bit bigger than a Z1 so probably around 5 pounds and I would guess it probably has firewire. If you read through here (http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92840), Greg Boston says it looks like the camera won't do SD, though nothing's official until Sony releases more details at IBC (http://www.ibc.org/cgi-bin/displaypage.cgi?pageref=100) in July.

though nothing's official until Sony releases more details at IBC (http://www.ibc.org/cgi-bin/displaypage.cgi?pageref=100) in July.

The final specs are due to be out around mid July. IBC is in September.

-gb-

The final specs are due to be out around mid July. IBC is in September.

-gb-

Haha whoops, that makes more sense. Thanks, Greg.

Why would someone buy this opposed to the HVX200 with all the multiple frame rates, 4:2:2 color sampling (with out going through SDI), 100 Mbps recording in DVCProHD, and the ability to record in SD on tape and to P2. This Panasonic sounds like it offers so much more. And is cheaper.

Why would someone buy this opposed to the HVX200

Cheaper, faster, more widely-available and higher capacity flash media that doesn't use an obsolete interface, for one.

1/2" chips and a manual lens, for two more.

Why would someone buy this opposed to the HVX200 with all the multiple frame rates, 4:2:2 color sampling (with out going through SDI), 100 Mbps recording in DVCProHD, and the ability to record in SD on tape and to P2. This Panasonic sounds like it offers so much more. And is cheaper.

1. at least 3x the amount of recording per GB of storage.

2. Cheaper storage.

3. The EX does allow variable framerates such as 24p, 25p, 30p 50p and 60p. It isn't as many but most people are not shooting at 22fps anyways.

4. 100 Mbps is actaully inferior because it is a intraframe frame format. Yes I know Intraframe means better frames for each frame but that comes at a cost. DVCPROHD is forced to use less pixels in order to cram a decent level of quality per frame. Each frame must use the exact same number of bits so some frames may not hav enough bits while some frames may be totally wasting bits. 720p from the HVX200 will give you 960x720 pixels while XDCAMHD at 720p will give you true 1280x720.

5. The HVX200 is a 1/3" chip camera where each chip is 960x540 pixels that use pixel shift to try and build back some of the detail. The EX camera uses 1/2" chips that will use either 1440x1080 pixels or 1920x1080 pixels. The EX camera will not only give you better low light due to the larger chips but it will not suffer any restrictions on resolving detail from a tiny 1/3" chip and it will have a lot more natural detail then the HVX200.

6. On the HVX200 a 16GB card shooting 1080 has to be changed every 16 minutes. On the EX it only has to be changed about every 45 minutes give or take a few minutes.

7. HD-SDI output (I'm pretty sure on this) for the EX while the HVX200 only has component output. (I do need to confirm this)

8. While I do love 4:2:2 color since I am a compositor, when shooting progressive footage 4:2:0 is actually not that much different. 4:2:0 keying will be very clean and accurate.

9. Discovery HD and maybe some other HDTV channels will not use HVX200 footage but they will use XDCAMHD footage. We do not yet know how well the footage from the EX will be but chances are it is going to be very close to the big cameras due to the 1/2" chips which should be very much like the 1/2" chips in the larger XDCAMHD cameras.

10. XDCAMHD has three recording modes. 18mbit, 25mbit and 35mbit. The lower modes of course give you even more record time and will look equally as good as long as the scene isn't much more complex. For example if you are shooting a seminar or something boring from a tripod then the 18mbit mode should be more then enough to keep the exact same level of quality but almost double the amount of recoding time you can get with two 16GB cards. You could get at least 2:30 of record time by doing this. The HVX200 cannot do this. The only way you can get more time from the P2 cards is to shoot 720p 24p which of course you can no longer compare to 1080p 60i or 720p 60p if thats what you need.

Hi Thomas

Let's not forget that XDCAM HD can be edited on AVID Liquid like ... ehm liquid.

I still love my HVX200 though. I compared some material I shot with an PDW-F330. My vote goes definitely to the HVX. But the XDCAM EX looks very promising. I think in a year from now, I'll have both of them :-)

And finally let's not forget. The HVX is here, you can use it. The XDCAM EX will probalbly be shown at IBC and you may be able to buy one Q1/2008. Not earlier! Until then I will make a lot of beautiful jobs an my Panny. But it's cool to be able to actually see both worlds. It keeps my in balance, y'know.

Peter

Hi Thomas


I still love my HVX200 though. I compared some material I shot with an PDW-F330. My vote goes definitely to the HVX.

Peter

We all have personal preferences but there is really no comparison to footage from an HVX-200 and a 330. I had a chance to use a 500 and was equally unimpressed.

The XDCAM EX will probalbly be shown at IBC and you may be able to buy one Q1/2008. Not earlier!

Ummm, no. The XDCAM EX was shown at NAB and is slated to ship in late October.

Let's not get into a platform war here. Otherwise the thread will be locked and/or removed. It's nice to have information on the specs of the tools we use, but each individual must weigh their own needs with respect to features, price, ergonomics, etc.

Spend your passion on creating, not debating.

regards,

-gb-

Both the F330 and F350 out of the box look very, very dull. You need to try some of the setup files available on Sony's XDCAM web site (www.sony.com/xdcam). For exemple, try the LBEACH scene file and you will see you camera come to life.

Thierry.

Also, I forgot to mention. On any of these setup files including Sony's base settings, crank the Knee Saturation setting to 140, you highlights areas will be much smoother. For some reason, the default setting is 0 where the range goes from 0 to 200. I suspect the default knee should have been 100 on those cameras and I am still at odds with some engineers at Sony in regard to that issue.

Thierry.

Surely putting the knee saturation up that high on an already saturated scene file will make the highlights look very artificial and 'plasticky'?

O.K. guys look

I don't want to start a format war here. Please don't think that of me.

As I said, I use both. The HVX and the F330. Both are great cameras. But I had occasions were the F330 couldn't deliver and the HVX could. (Fast movements, on stage pyroeffects etc.)

I will have a very close look when the EX comes out, because it seems like a really cool camera. I am not the guy that says the HVX is the light at the end of the tunnel. It's just another tool that guides me through the tunnel. The same goes for the F330 by the way.

I did beautiful shots on both cameras. In my personal opinion the HVX just performs a little bit better, because of the Intra Frame only coded. I know, better glass, filter, tweaking etc. also helps a great deal on the F330.

Like I said. Having both cameras, it helps me keep the balance and an hopefully objective view on those topics. Sorry, if I steptoed anybody.

So please everyone, calm down. It's just my humble opinion. O.K.?

P.S. Greg. I still bet $10 that we will not see the XDCAM EX in stores before 2008. Are you in? I hope to be proofed wrong, but I'm dealing with SONY for 20 Years now.


Peter

Although the EX does 60p does it not? im sure that will help in competition with HVX

Surely putting the knee saturation up that high on an already saturated scene file will make the highlights look very artificial and 'plasticky'?

Well, this could happen too when using the LBEACH scene file but my take on this is that since using the F350's, I always felt that the default KNEE Saturation settings should have been 100, not zero. I set mine to 140 (out of a max value of 200) and that really solved a lot of issues I was having on high spots. Try it, but your mileage may vary.

Thierry.

Well, this could happen too when using the LBEACH scene file but my take on this is that since using the F350's, I always felt that the default KNEE Saturation settings should have been 100, not zero. ...
Thierry.

Actually, one thing that conforts me in the point I made above is that if you look at the F330/F350 user manuals page 119, description of Paint Menu page #4, it shows a default value for the KNEE Saturation of 0 with a -99 to +99 range. That seem like a logical setting and I suspect the KNEE Sat factory settings for the camera is totally off. All paint settings default values in the camera allow for either and increase of reduction. The KNEE is the only one with no possible reduction from the default value. This is the only error I have found in the menus descriptions.

Now, a quick test you can try to corroborate this..

Just light a plain color wall (deeper the color the better) with 2 or 3 spot lights. If you tried to get an overall correct exposure on the wall, your spot lights will quickly show as white hot spots. Turn the KNEE Sat up and you will see smooth color spots.

I have setup a bunch of new 350s and out of the box, I cranked the KNEE Sat to 120. So far no one has complained about it.

Thierry.

Greg. I still bet $10 that we will not see the XDCAM EX in stores before 2008. Are you in? I hope to be proofed wrong, but I'm dealing with SONY for 20 Years now.

I know you weren't trying to start anything, Peter. It just seems to have evolved as two tapeless formats, each of which have their loyal fans. And that always leads to debates, which then turn to heated discussions, then flame wars. At DVINFO, we try to extinguish the flame while it's just a tiny spark.

As to the $10, it would be too much like insider trading on my part. So I'll politely decline that bet. ;-)

-gb-

Surely putting the knee saturation up that high on an already saturated scene file will make the highlights look very artificial and 'plasticky'?

It's just restoring the chroma to the compressed part of the signal to keep it from looking washed out. I guess it would look artificial if you cranked it too far, much like many of the other paint functions.

I know you must have seen this document.

http://www.sonybiz.net/res/attachment/file/19/1166605183219.pdf

-gb-

The info I got from the Sony Japan guy at NAB was the EX will do 1p to 60p and everything in between. No ramp capability though.
Not certain if it'll record in XDCAM HQ or not, at NAB time that seemed to be subject to change.
The camera that was on show at NAB had already been used to record footage, it was no cardboard mockup. I believe several beta units have been in the field for sometime.

Quote by Greg Boston:

I know you weren't trying to start anything, Peter. It just seems to have evolved as two tapeless formats, each of which have their loyal fans. And that always leads to debates, which then turn to heated discussions, then flame wars. At DVINFO, we try to extinguish the flame while it's just a tiny spark.

As to the $10, it would be too much like insider trading on my part. So I'll politely decline that bet. ;-)

***************

Fair enough, I'll drink a beer or two on you when the time is right.
Believe me, if this little camera is performing as promised, I'll be the first to buy one here in Switzerland.

In 2008 ;-)

Peter

The HVX and the F330. Both are great cameras. But I had occasions were the F330 couldn't deliver and the HVX could. (Fast movements, on stage pyroeffects etc.)


What problems have you had with fast movements and have you told this to Sony? No-one else is reporting issues with this. We've been filming aircraft flying at 300 mph with XDCam issue and haven't seen any problems.

I know you're not trying to start a flame war but I'm a bit worried that you may have given the casual viewer the idea that XDCam HD has some of the problems that have been (mostly wrongly) associated with HDV.

I shot an on-stage pyro effect with the 330. An actor came down a stair. The stage is very dark. Suddenly a white pyro flash goes off. It took the MPEG Coded about 12 frames to recover from that shock. The picture is all blocky for half a second.

In 99.9% of all shot's it's not a problem. But on that particular occasion, the MPEG codec was just not able to handle the incoming signal fast enough.

Peter

Thanks for that clarification, that is an extreme test of a codec. You might like to pass it on to Sony if you haven't already.

The first project I shot with 350s was a concert with strobes going off the entire time. It was even at 25mbs, because that's all FCP could handle at the time.

Only later did I realize that those strobes going off constantly were a codec nightmare. Upon close inspection of the frames, you can indeed tell that the codec was compromised a little from it, but I never saw it until I went looking for it.

In the future, I'd never shoot something like that at 25 again...but I can't say it ruined my day or anything.

It's just restoring the chroma to the compressed part of the signal to keep it from looking washed out. I guess it would look artificial if you cranked it too far, much like many of the other paint functions.

Knee saturation is a setting that you need to be very careful with. It is not a setting that you can set-and-forget, and needs to be adjusted according to the scene in hand. You can get some strange results otherwise depending on the situation (for example clouds can take on a blue hue when they should be white).

In general Sony's camera Tru-Eye processing should hold such details more naturally by itself while knee saturation is something that should be used on a shot by shot basis, and then judiciously. Just my 2c.

Simon