Hi Everyone,

Once again, I am going to be fighting with my JVC-HD110U to capture HDV footage onto my laptop with final cut. I was wondering...if you (the people out there) do not have a subclipping problem when capturing and do not have to use a work-around then what is your computer and software set-up? Depending on the answers, I might just go and buy a whole new computer system.

Also, the new final cut does it help with the subclip problem?

Thanks for the help!

Cheers,
Sharon

I do not have a problem with subclips. I start recording, and I stop recording, and everything between that start and stop is one clip. Here is my set up-

-JVC-HD110 Recording to Firestore DR-HD100

-Copy files from firestore to computer via firewire

-Home built PC with Pentium D processor

-Edius Pro 4 editing software

Thanks Adam. I guess I would love to know if there are people who use final cut out there who have a set-up that doesn't create subclipping problems. But other set-up information is VERY helpful.

Cheers,
Sharon

other set-up information is VERY helpful.

Cheers,
Sharon

Sony Vegas 7 on a midrange HP laptop, with no problems, subclip or otherwise.

Hey Sharon, I think the subclipping problem is mainly with FCP users at this point. I know a premiere 1.5 user with a dual opteron and win xp pro who only had subclipping on an hour long live performance video, he upgraded to 2.0 and hasn't had one since

what is subclipping?

I guess when I refer to "subclipping" I am referring to what happens when I capture an HDV tape (top quality) from my deck or camera onto my laptop with final cut. Final Cut just chops up whatever is coming from the deck/camera into my laptop.

Instead of a whole tape or whole clip (with in and out points set) being captured - a bunch of smaller clips with information (seconds) missing in-between occurs.

It does not have to do with when the rec button is pushed. It does not have to do with the pre-roll seconds setting. It is not the tape stock.

I hope I have explained this ok.

I guess when I refer to "subclipping" I am referring to what happens when I capture an HDV tape (top quality) from my deck or camera onto my laptop with final cut. Final Cut just chops up whatever is coming from the deck/camera into my laptop.

Instead of a whole tape or whole clip (with in and out points set) being captured - a bunch of smaller clips with information (seconds) missing in-between occurs.

It does not have to do with when the rec button is pushed. It does not have to do with the pre-roll seconds setting. It is not the tape stock.

I hope I have explained this ok.

Are the chops based upon when the camera "record" button is pushed? or are they random?

Also does FCP convert to an IC on the fly the way cineform does?

It does not correspond to the rec button. The subclips are random and often.

Sorry, but not sure what IC is. I'm not the best at the techno-speak.

It does not correspond to the rec button. The subclips are random and often.

Sorry, but not sure what IC is. I'm not the best at the techno-speak.

I'm on a pc and use a software called cineform that converts the mpeg 2 in to an IC (intermediary codec) which is full frame and robust and easier to edit. I don't know if FCP has an option like that.

Also, laptops have smaller and usually slower Hard drives, wondering if that could be the problem.

Hi Brian,

There are ICs that people recommend on final cut (like AIC) but they sadly do not solve the problem.

I was thinking that my laptop might just be too slow. That is why I was thinking of picking up the new mac laptop with 4GB...I was told by a person "techier" than I that 4GB should be fast enough to fix any speed-related problems. ( I just love laptops.) The question I posted here was to see the set-up of any users that didn't have subclip problems...as you know. In particular, I was hoping that some Mac users would chime in. However, it seems that the PC non-final cut people are the happy ones who are talkin'.

I have used the laborious work-around for this problem in the past that has left me with not very pretty footage and sound issues...I have a big final edit due July 31st and I need to get on that, but I just don't know what to do about my workflow and my cash flow is fairly negative to source this out. The glamorous life of a doc filmmaker huh?

Thanks for the dialogue. Keep it coming if you have any ideas. The forum is my break from tedious transcribing.

Cheers,
Sharon

What do you see when you open this window under settings?

Um,not sure where you are going with this, but I'm game. I see the same as you do but my stuff is saving to my external harddrive.

If it looks the same and you are not hitting the stop/record button then I don't know what is the problem.
I am on FCP5.0.4 and I don't get the splits unless I hit the stop/record button on the cameras.

And what computer are you using to capture? Type, speed, etc.
What camera are you shooting on?
Do you work for JVC or final cut? Wondering since on some forums some companies have employees write misinformation if problems are brought up with their product. My guess is that would not go on on this forum, but you never know.

Sharon,

My setup is doing the same thing as you.

I sent my camera into JVC for them to fix. They replaced the tape transport and it still does it. I also get lots of dropouts on tape.

I am using Panasonic MQ stock.

My setup is a G4 Powerbook 1.67 ghz, with 1 gig RAM, 1TB FW800 drive (RAID).

I used to edit stuff all the time with this setup. Now I have had nothing but problems.

From what I have seen the best solution is to buy a Firestore and skip tape all together. To bad that it take a $1500 solution to make the camera usable.

I will be upgrading to FCP 6 later this week to see if that helps.

Dan Weber

Ahhhh, I am worried that there is no happy answer to my question (at least for me).

Is there any mac - final cut - JVC HDV user out there who has a set-up that does not have a subclipping problem?

I hope so. And I hope they post soon. Right now, stuck with tapes for this editing situation.

I thought the issue was due to the weird approach of final cut to subclips - that it applies the pre-roll even if its a single tape capture. I believe I read about the subclipping (at least the fact that there is such a thing) in an official final cut product description.
As far as I could tell changing the pre/post-roll settings to one second gives you more clip space - and for the rest you just have to let the camera roll a bit longer than you usually would before starting.

Haven´t experienced any dropouts or missing footage that couldn´t be explained by the above, and I haven´t had the problem you described with subclips being created within a single record-stop sequence. Using a Macbook Pro and capturing / editing to/from firewire external drive.

ADo you work for JVC or final cut? Wondering since on some forums some companies have employees write misinformation if problems are brought up with their product. My guess is that would not go on on this forum, but you never know.

Sharon, you're right that we wouldn't stand for this sort of behaviour at DVinfo. But we'd also prefer that you don't accuse other members of this kind of thing.

FWIW, I see this same behavior when capturing from my Sony Z1 on FCP 5.0.x so I don't think it has anything to do with JVC. I don't edit HDV very often so I haven't taken the time to look into it myself. If I capture the same tape using in-camera conversion to regular DV (i.LINK CONV in Sony-speak) then I don't have the problem. I thought it was perhaps related to the create new clip on timecode break preference but never investigated further.

Do you work for JVC or final cut? Wondering since on some forums some companies have employees write misinformation if problems are brought up with their product. My guess is that would not go on on this forum, but you never know.Your guess is correct, that would not go on on this forum. We don't have that problem here. This isn't your typical internet message board. Occasionally we'll get a person who makes that sort of paranoid accusation, but I'll usually boot such a person off of this forum permanently, in a big hurry. Hope that's clear enough,

Um,not sure where you are going with this, but I'm game. I see the same as you do but my stuff is saving to my external harddrive.

That's a potential issue, especially on a laptop. You're wanting the FW bus to be capturing at the same time it's having to write the data to an external drive.

As a suggestion, try changing the capture scratch to the internal drive and see if it helps. If so, you can move the files later to free up your drive space. If it doesn't, I don't know.

I can tell you that in the brief time I had the JVC100 after the Texas HD Shootout last year, I captured with the AVC capture program from Apple's FW SDK. There were still gaps on playback when playing in MPEG Streamclip. I then instructed Streamclip to fix timecode breaks, and it did so. The gap in playback went away using this method.

Now, that information is just over a year old and was on FCP 5.0 so it may not be completely applicable at this point. But given your frustration, it's worth a try, right?

-gb-

There's a bunch of threads on this problem. Here's another possibility:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=93647&page=3

Sharon,

I solution to your editing problem would be to use something like a Convergent Design box to convert your footage from HDV to HDSDI and then to your edit in a codec like DVCPROHD.

You would need a desktop mac with a capture card like a decklink or aja card to do this.

Dan Weber

Thanks Dan,

I know this decktop strategy...I just was hoping to find a way to work out a laptop strategy. I am just so wed to my laptop...I travel a lot! However, thanks for the help. I appreciate any and all input.

Cheers,
Sharon

I understand the problem with wanting to stay on your laptop.

I travel a lot to, though I much prefer to edit on a desktop machine.

I am a little frustrated that this thread was moved to this forum.

It sounds like you are having the same problems that I am having, and that it is the camera and not the editing system.

I used my same powerbook to edit stuff from my camera lots of times in the past before my problems started occuring.

I am in the middle of updating my desktop edit system to FCP 2. I will then test and see if that solves the problem. I will also try to to recapture some older tapes that i shot and had success with in the past to see if they will work now or not.

Will keep you updated,

Dan Weber

I am a little frustrated that this thread was moved to this forum.

It sounds like you are having the same problems that I am having, and that it is the camera and not the editing system.

I moved the thread to the FCP forum because it's really a software discussion. As mentioned, I've seen the same behavior with my Z1 (unless I'm not understanding your problem). Having the thread here should open it up to more people who may be able to help.

Regardless, I left a re-direct in the JVC forum so the thread is still visible to the regulars there.

Boyd,

Thanks for the update!!

I confirmed last night (or I should say at 4 am) that my problem is not with FCP but with the camera. From what Sharon's problems sounded like, I felt that they were a mirror of mine.

I also shoot with a Z1 and have been editing native HDV in FCP from that camera's footage for close to 2 years.

It does have some quirkey behaviour, but nothing like the JVC camera!!

I can live with breaks in timecode at start and stop, but not in the middle of a clip.

I am still trying to get JVC to respond to my problem.

Thanks,

Dan Weber

I've only skimmed this thread so apologies if I'm saying something thats been covered. I'm using a MacBook Pro, FCP 5.1.4 capturing with either a XH A1 or a Sony PD150. Don't have the issue you're having but I will say this.

Consider getting an external SATA drive with an ExpressCard adapter. Faster drive and also takes some of the load of the FW bus.

That said I wouldn't buy anything without testing it first or at least having a firm promise from the vendor that you can return without the restocking fee.
(There's a story behind the last statement which I won't get into)

I missed if you're on a PPC or an intel Mac, but do want to say that as much as I love Apple IMHO the intel Macs are still not quite up to speed with certain things. (see above paragraph) To be fair its often a question of the 3rd party soft/hardware not being up to speed with the intels. But to the end user the bottom line is it just doesn't deliver as needed. Unfortunately if you talk to either manufacturer they point the finger at eachother.

Again to be fair, Apple explicitly states it doesn't guarantee 3rd party applications.

Good luck!

I've posted information on this topic many times so I won't go into the details again.

Here are the broad strokes (in reference to 'native' HDV ingest):


720P24, 720P25, 720P30 HDV from all ProHD products (cameras and deck) are supported natively in FCP5.1.2 and newer.
720P60 (and we assume 720P50) support will come eventually in a future update to FCP6. (It was demoed and working at NAB07)
FCP 5 has a very low tolerance for data breaks when capturing HDV streams. Increasing hard drive/bus/processor speeds may help with the demux process, but even an octo Mac Pro with a RAID array will have the same core issue with natively ingesting 720P24 or 720P25 HDV from tape.
FCP5 or 6 CANNOT capture across start/stop breaks on a tape, regardless of the settings in the preferences. If the GOP is broken it is impossible capture it into one file. The only solution to capture across these breaks is a 3rd party capture card.
The best way to shoot on tape and ensure the best data streams possible is to clean your heads as prescribed in the user manual, and use the recommended JVC ProHD 63 minute tape stock. I personally recommend against using even JVC's "Pro" stock. I only ever recommend "ProHD" stock. It has worked well for me, and I use FCP on a daily basis on various systems. (I've probably shot 200+ hours of ProHD tape stock.)
Good news: FCP6 seems to be more tolerant to imperfect data streams. (from my own testing of a non-ProHD tape.)
The HD200 & HD250 firmware update is available now to improve capture results with FCP. We assume the HD100 series will have a similar firmware update eventually. The implication here is that this firmware update improves error correction for the stream, therefore decreasing data breaks from tapes with dropouts or other errors, but this is unconfirmed.
Downloadable firmware updates are also available for the BR-HD50U deck.
FCP still reads 24P timecode as 30fps TC, even in FCP6. You just have to live with it if you ever want to batch capture.
For best results avoid using "Capture Now." Shoot with regen TC and then log and batch capture if you want to capture material anywhere near the start/stop breaks.
If you hate tape, I highly recommend the DR-HD100. It works very well and seems very reliable. Just don't use cache record unless you are in free run TC mode.

Boyd,

Thanks for the update!!

I confirmed last night (or I should say at 4 am) that my problem is not with FCP but with the camera. From what Sharon's problems sounded like, I felt that they were a mirror of mine.

I also shoot with a Z1 and have been editing native HDV in FCP from that camera's footage for close to 2 years.

It does have some quirkey behaviour, but nothing like the JVC camera!!

I can live with breaks in timecode at start and stop, but not in the middle of a clip.

I am still trying to get JVC to respond to my problem.

Thanks,

Dan Weber
JVC called me today and will be taking the camera back for repair. I will also be sending them one of the tapes that I have recorded that has issues.
Hopefully they will be able to narrow down the problem this time.

Still think that I will get the DR-HD100 soon.

Dan Weber