hey folks,

I've got most of my kit together, just have to figure out this mixer business. I don't know much about mixers, so been reading up on it. Are audio mixers and field mixers both the same?

There are two kinds out there, with the round knobs and the ones with the sliders. Do they both do the same job, maybe one is for the field and one for the studio?

Anyway, after reading most of the posts here, I think Sound Devices 302 is out of my range, which only leaves ENG-44 as my choice. Do I have any other options?

My budget is around $600. I shoot mostly DV/DVCAM, magazine show segments using one or two cameras. I have the K6/ME66, G2 combo, and senn handheld mics.

And if anybody knows where I can read up on field mixers and how to use them, please let me know...books or websites.

Thanks...
k

I wrestled with a decision to buy a 302. I also looked at second hand SQN and Minx, etc. I wondered about the ENG-44, especially since it has some good reviews.

In the end I took a deep breath and went for the 302. It is such a great piece of kit. It's built to last and it's obvious a lot of thought has gone into the design. Electronically it appears to be amongst best of breed. It feels like it'll never let you down.

All the things I was looking at were field mixers, which can also be operated slung around your neck and powered by batteries. You probably don't want a mains-powered desk mixer slung around your neck ....

Thanks Mike.

Now I gotta look up two more names :-/ the SQN and Minx.
There's also the Rolls MX422 and MX124, although I don't even know if they are field mixers...

If you can't afford the 302, and can make do with only 2 inputs, Sound Devices also makes the MixPre, which might be closer to your price range. Terrific pre-amps, built like a tank, small, portable and has every professional feature you'll need.

Equipment Emporium has a good set of articles on production sound, including a detailed description of the ENG44 at:
http://www.equipmentemporium.com/Articles/Articles%20about%20Prod%20Sound.htm

Otherwise, I'd highly recommend Jay Rose's "Great Sound for Digital Video," available from DV press.

Hi,

302 very good. Mic and line outputs. Built like a tank.
I use the 442.

I have reviews of some mixers up in my On Line Archive.

The MixPre is also good, but only has a line output.

Regards,

Ty

Hi there

I've got a Premix... outstanding bit of kit... excellent sound.
If you can't stretch to the 302 then this is your baby... As Ty says only line out, but this is no problem and probably the setting I'd use in any case.

cheers
Gareth

...My budget is around $600. I shoot mostly DV/DVCAM, magazine show segments using one or two cameras. I have the K6/ME66, G2 combo, and senn handheld mics...

Well, it's really is dependent on how many inputs you need. With a $600 budget and taking in consideration the mics you are using, I would recommend going ahead and getting the ENG-44.

I use the SD-442 all the time. But, sometimes I've been forced to work with shure FP-32 or FP--33... really old ones. So, I bought an ENG-44 to use in those circumstances. It is clearly an upgrade over the old Shure models...especially when going to a digital format. I also considered the PSC mixer (DV PROMIX 3). I went w/ the ENG-44 for that 4th channel and did NOT want to have to use 9 volt batteries.

The ENG-44 just takes a little while to adjust to ... a little different gain structure in finding the right balance between the main and the individual channels. Same w/ the headphone amp...it seems a little softer than I'm used to until I kick on the TONE (loud). The first thing you do w/ the ENG-44 is try to knock down that "POWER LED". Man that thing is bright. Some finger nail polish from my wife did the trick.

The SD-Mix pre is fine if all you are doing is booming...but, I wouldn't want that to be my main mixer. It's way too limiting.

In conclusion, get the ENG-44 or Promix 3...w/ the longterm plan of upgrading your mic (better Boom mic) and eventually get the SD-302...you can still link your first mixer in the chain for more inputs.

The MixPre is also good, but only has a line output.

That can be a very good thing, as most line inputs bypass the mic input, which may introduce noise and distortion.

yes, but some cameras only have mic level inputs

yes, but some cameras only have mic level inputs

Professional cameras? I thought that was in the past.

Sorry if that is the case then. The Shure FP33s I rent, which are set for line level outputs, always return with the same settings there. As all the other controls (pots, pan-pots, switches) are always in different settings when coming back, I don't think they would change the output switch to mic level.

So maybe that's why I reason mic level inputs only were a thing of the past.

...So maybe that's why I reason mic level inputs only were a thing of the past.

98% of the time you should use line level.

But, sometimes the client wants to send a wireless feed from the mixer to the camera and the current wireless setup you have can't handle the power of line level....What do you do? Sorry client, my mixer doesn't have mic outs...

The Mixpre is a good tool...but, don't let it be your main option.

Professional cameras? I thought that was in the past.

Sorry if that is the case then. The Shure FP33s I rent, which are set for line level outputs, always return with the same settings there. As all the other controls (pots, pan-pots, switches) are always in different settings when coming back, I don't think they would change the output switch to mic level.

So maybe that's why I reason mic level inputs only were a thing of the past.

The Canon XL2, for one, only has mic level inputs.

Regards,

Ty

98% of the time you should use line level.

But, sometimes the client wants to send a wireless feed from the mixer to the camera and the current wireless setup you have can't handle the power of line level....What do you do? Sorry client, my mixer doesn't have mic outs...

The Mixpre is a good tool...but, don't let it be your main option.

I am not talking about the Mixpre. The equipment I have, which I use and rent to others, is prepared to deal with line levels going into my Lectrosonics wireless mic. In fact that would be a question of cable attenuation, if necessary. A sound recordist should be prepared for such situations.

The Canon XL2, for one, only has mic level inputs.


It does have unbalanced line level RCA inputs, or the specs say that at least.

It does have unbalanced line level RCA inputs, or the specs say that at least.

Yes it does and I don't use them because they are unbalanced..


Also, unbalanced line level often means consummer line level of -10 dB. Dunno, haven't bothered fuguring out what the RCA inputs are.

Ty Ford

Yes it does and I don't use them because they are unbalanced..


Also, unbalanced line level often means consummer line level of -10 dB. Dunno, haven't bothered fuguring out what the RCA inputs are.



Well, the X2 is a pro-consumer camera. It didn't have standard XLR inputs until recently, only if you bought an add-on.

That's why I singled out pro cameras on my comment.

I haven't had so bad luck with line level unbalanced lines though, RCA or whatever. Just can't stand 1/8" sockets.

Um, the XL2 has had XLRs since it first came out.
I have friends in Pro shops who replaced their MII gear with Canon XL2 cameras for corporate industrial work.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Um, the XL2 has had XLRs since it first came out.


You might be right on that one. But I still think you would get best results by using an external mixer on it and going in through the XL2 line inputs, even unbalanced.

Whoa! I wish I knew what you guys were talking about :-/

I thought most cameras had both Line & Mic... although its quite possible I don't even know what those are.

Anyway, I do think I need 4 channels, which the SD MixPre doesn't have. I'm assuming that with the ENG-44 I can mix 4 mics down to 2 channels?

I think ENG-44 is the way to go, when I upgrade my mics I can get the SD302. Since I don't even know what SD 302 can do that the ENG-44 can't do, I think its a safe option for me.

Whoa! I wish I knew what you guys were talking about :-/

If you stay in this, in time you will know.

I thought most cameras had both Line & Mic... although its quite possible I don't even know what those are.

Most pro cameras will have mic & line input. Consumer usually just mic input. Mic inputs are more sensitive, but easily overloaded if the preamp is not too well designed. Line inputs are less sensitive, and are the inputs where you will preferably plug your mixer to, if you have them.

Then there are balanced and unbalanced connections. The former are better, noise free and allow long cable runs. In pro cameras and some pro-sumer they are used for mic inputs. Unbalanced inputs demand shorter cable runs and are the standard on most consumer cameras.

To know more about that you should really go into some audio recording books.

Anyway, I do think I need 4 channels, which the SD MixPre doesn't have. I'm assuming that with the ENG-44 I can mix 4 mics down to 2 channels?

Yes, it will, as most portable 4 input mixers do.

I think ENG-44 is the way to go, when I upgrade my mics I can get the SD302. Since I don't even know what SD 302 can do that the ENG-44 can't do, I think its a safe option for me.

You will spend less, particularly if you need 4 inputs. Later on you can get a 302 or a 442. But you should spend your money in better mics before that.

...Anyway, I do think I need 4 channels, which the SD MixPre doesn't have. I'm assuming that with the ENG-44 I can mix 4 mics down to 2 channels?

I think ENG-44 is the way to go, when I upgrade my mics I can get the SD302. Since I don't even know what SD 302 can do that the ENG-44 can't do, I think its a safe option for me.

Yes, you have 4 inputs...your 2 lavs, Boom, & handheld can all get mixed to Left, Right, or Center. I like to boom the dickens out of everything so you can isolate the Boom mic to the the Left or Right channel and then mix the lavs on the other channel. If your doing all lavs, you can isolate the host or main mic to Left and mix the rest to the Right. If your not able to ride the levels, then you can separate the channels in order to create distance between lavs...so that you have less opportunity for phase cancelization w/ the omni lavs.

Both mixers sound good and that is the bottom line. The 302 gives you more control over panning, limiting, gain, metering, low cut filter, monitoring, phase reversal...just an overall better design and easier to adjust. It's also much easier to Market.

The 44 has some advantages w/ the extra channel, soft limiting, longer battery life, light weight, low cost... but, you really need to setup the gain properly in order to not over-use the soft limiter.

There's a big difference between the ENG-44 and a 302. Oddly, the difference is proportional to the price.

:)

Regards,

Ty Ford

There's a big difference between the ENG-44 and a 302. Oddly, the difference is proportional to the price.

:)

Regards,

Ty Ford


Yep, that's the way it is with everything, eh? Thanks for all the info folks, appreciate it.

k

There's a big difference between the ENG-44 and a 302. Oddly, the difference is proportional to the price.

:)

Regards,

Ty Ford

That is an odd thing isn't it? I should add that the difference that you can actually hear...with the Poster's current set of mics... would not be equal to that $700 price differential. That stinking law of diminishing returns keeps kicking in.

That is an odd thing isn't it? I should add that the difference that you can actually hear...with the Poster's current set of mics... would not be equal to that $700 price differential. That stinking law of diminishing returns keeps kicking in.


Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing actually... I'm pretty much in the same boat as Kundal.... I was wondering if I should get better mics first and THEN get a better field mixer (the SD 302 for example) or get the SD 302 first and get better mics later when I have the money?

Which ones comes first? Better mics or better mixer?

Vasi.

Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing actually... I'm pretty much in the same boat as Kundal.... I was wondering if I should get better mics first and THEN get a better field mixer (the SD 302 for example) or get the SD 302 first and get better mics later when I have the money?

Which ones comes first? Better mics or better mixer?

Vasi.

Now that would be a good test:

Which system would perform and sound better?

1) SD 442, ME66/K6 Boom, ME 2 lav

2) ENG-44, Schoeps CMIT5U, COS 11 lav

Which system would perform and sound better?

1) SD 442, ME66/K6 Boom, ME 2 lav

2) ENG-44, Schoeps CMIT5U, COS 11 lav

I don't have particularly golden ears, but I'm not a big fan of the ME-66 as other mics sound noticeably better than it. In some situations, even the on-board mics on the DVX100 will sound better if both are picking up a lot of reverb (this is for a ME-66 mounted on a camera; obviously moving it closer helps a lot). Shotguns can sound weird indoors, and the ME-66 makes this worse.

The Sennheiser 416 definitely sounds better than the ME-66... though if you're on a budget, others mics like the AT4073 may give comparable results.

IMO the mixer doesn't make that a huge difference in your sound, though I've found the Sound Devices stuff to be very well thought out (convenient /saves a small amount of time / slightly less screwups). It's more important to get the mic close, pick quiet locations or make the location quieter, use the right mic for the application, etc.

Glenn,

I'm with you on the 66. THE SANKEN CS3E is also a versatile shotgun.

Regards,

Ty Ford

if you can live with 3 channels i can suggest you 302 with audio technica
4073 , mbho 603+500 -hyper cardioid and sanken coss 11
thats -2900usd
if you need aditional inputs you can add mix pre -700(incl cable to mix bus)

the sign video 44 is one of the worst i ever checked , the schoeps shotgun is the waist of your money as in 95% .

you will be better with sanken cs-3 outside and with good hyper inside
me 66 is also something that i will ever touch for quality dialog ( especially to work between the walls)