i currently own a GL1 and am ready to get a decent tripod. i've been reading many threads on different brands and have narrowed it down to Miller, Sachtler, and Vinten. i plan on getting a new camera next year (probably the XL2 when it comes out), so i need to consider the extra weight for this purchase since this is a long term investment.

the most important feature i'm looking for (besides good price) is super-smooth pan action...the smoothest i can afford. i started out with $800 limit but have already decided that is not enough. if i'm gonna spend this kind of money, i should get something nice.

does the Sachtler DV 4 really support up tp 16 lbs? the B&H website says so and also states "depends on center of gravity"...what does that mean? their catalog says 9.9 lbs. it has limited tilt/pan drag settings (the DV 6 has more settings). i would prefer a mid-level spreader but i think i have to go up to the DV 6 to get that feature..or is it the DV 8...if it's the 8 then that is beyond my budget.

the Miller DS 10 has the mid-level spreader but no adjustable counter balance or tilt/pan drag settings...the price is good for me but will i suffer without those adjustable settings?

the Vinten Vision 3...the bank buster. seems they only come with ground-level spreaders which is a bummer. it has the adjustable settings but is the pan action worth the extra cash?

i want smooth...dare i say it, SEXY-smooth action...i'm talking ooohhhs and ahhhs every time i touch it. can i get this with the lower priced Miller DS 10 or Sachtler DV 4? i guess what i'm asking is will there be that big of a difference?

lastly, should i go with single or dual stage legs. i'm really having a hard time deciding on this.....any help would be great...thanx.

my first post here,

danny

Danny,
You have obviously done your research and distilled some of the essential distinguishing attributes of these tripods.

But you've constructed your query in such a way that its impossible for anyone to really help you. All anyone can do is write about these tripods. You have a GL1 now but are selecting a tripod for an as-yet-nonexistent camera with an unspecified loading characteristics.

If I had to select a tripod/head that would work well with your GL1 and also accommodate, say, an XL1s I would probably select the Miller DS-10.

thanks for the reply ken. i guess i should have simply asked is the pan action on the Vinten Vision 3 worth the extra money over the Miller DS 10 or Sachtler DV 4? will there be that big of a difference? i haven't been able to get my hands on any of these (only checked out Bogen / Manfrotto). i am looking for feedback from anyone who has experience with these models.

thanx again,
danny

<<does the Sachtler DV 4 really support up tp 16 lbs? the B&H website says so and also states "depends on center of gravity"...what does that mean?>>

I'm pretty sure this is referring to the height of the camera: the further away the center of gravity of the camera is to the fulcrum of the head, the more counterbalance tension is required from that head (most noticeable at extreme tilts). Most DV cameras are reasonably low-profile, with the exception of the vertically-oriented one-chippers, but those are all plenty lightweight. You would have to load a whole lot of stuff onto the accessory shoe (shotgun, big ungainly onboard light, that sort of thing) to make a top-heavy DV camera.

Speaking of tilts, this is yet another factor to look at when shopping for a head: how many degrees of tilt does it allow in either direction (sometimes more one direction than the other)? It's good to look into this, because there's quite a bit of variation--a great head can deliver a full 90 degrees straight up or straight down, whereas a cheaper one may only go 60 looking down. In such extreme tilts, a head that offers counterbalance really shines, otherwise you are left muscling the camera in and out of those tilt positions. When checking out a head in person, make sure to tilt all the way through the range with a full load onboard to see if you are happy with how it performs.

Danny,
Building on Charles' remarks...

I own both a Miller DS-10 and Sachtler DV-6. I have no meaningful experience with the Vinten Vision series although its design is a closer match to the Sachtler than the Miller.

Buyers often focus on "smooth pans", but nearly all of the better brands of fluid heads (certainly all that you mentioned) will pan smoothly. But tilt is really the bigger issue, particularly when you're working with a larger camera with an eccentric center of gravity. The head's ability to maintain the correct counter-force to balance the camera is, at least to me, the more important factor.

For example, I principally use the Miller with my GL2. Since the GL2's center of gravity is low and pretty well longitudinally centered the Miller's lack of spring-loaded counterbalance control is a non-issue. The Miller could also handle a basic XL1s setup quite well.

But when my XL1s is fully loaded it gets heavy and the center of gravity moves higher and forward. That's the situation for which I bought the Sachtler DV-6. Its variable, and repeatable, tilt counterbalance control make a world of difference for such a setup. Once balanced, I can easily tilt the camera within nearly a 180 deg range and it will stay put even without locking the position. That means that all force I apply to the pan handle in either direction serves to overcome inertia and head friction, rather than unequal forces being required to tilt up versus down. That's very important, since most head moves are not purely pans or tilts, but combinations of both. If the camera is balanced in both planes your ability to execute such moves accurately is greatly enhanced.

But every selection represents a compromise. The Miller is a better on-the-go tripod (in my opinion), with a good case, mid-level spreader, individual rubber feet (covering the spikes) and a shoulder strap on the legs. The Sachtler DV-6 is, as I noted, a more accurately adjustable head.

Regarding 2-stage -vs- 1-stage legs, it's a toss-up. I pesonally like 2-stage legs. They collapse just a bit smaller and are able to get down lower. Single stage legs might set-up just a bit quicker in certain situation.

Danny,

May I recommend the following (mine)?
http://www.ibsconvention.com/main-site/photos/gitzo_g1380.jpg

It is the Gitzo G1380 head. B&H sells the G1380 kit (that includes six springs) for $809 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bh2.sph/FrameWork.class?FNC=ProductActivator__Aproductlist_html___206505___GIG1380___REG___CatID=0___SID=F54 05EB4980).

It can support any camera up to 22 pounds with the appropriate counterbalance tilt spring. Admittedly, it's overkill for the likes of a GL1/2, VX2000, DVX100, but who cares. You can use any legs of your choosing that will accomodate a 75mm ball. I happen to use the Gitzo G1325 carbon fiber tripod because that's what I also use for my still photography. It's VERY sturdy, rigid, and light! B&H sells the G1325 for $515. Then all you'll need is the G1422 75mm bowl for $35 and your done.

Now, the reason I recommend this is because of what (and where) you can actually get this true pro "Fluide" head for under $350 -- brand new in the box from an authorized dealer -- as I did.

Henry's Camera in Toronto, Canada (I'm in CT, USA) sells the same Gitzo G1380/0 head (there is only one G1380) for what amounts to $347 USD -- but without the full spring kit. That is the only difference between what Henry's is selling and what B&H is selling! Then all you will need to do is order a new 1kg spring (not 2kg, trust me) directly from Gitzo/Bogen parts in NJ -- (201) 818-9500 -- and order whatever spring(s) you need for about $40 each.

Voila! You have a beautiful, pro-caliber, carbon fiber tripod/head rig for UNDER $1,000!

Believe me. The G1380 is one SWEET head. Tilt is so smooth and buttery, with "dead-stop" precision (not even the slightest hint of "back-creep") that you will want to sleep with it!

I've played with the DS5 and DS10. I thought they were very nice. I've never seen a Vision 3, but a few years ago, DV Magazine gave it top honors. Right now I have a Manfrotto, and I've also played around with their larger heads.

tilt action...damn...never really thought about that much. the times i went to the local camera shop to check out the Bogens (501-503), i only played with the pan action (with no camera on it). they felt great compared to my Velbon 607. i can just imagine what the higher-end heads feel like. that's the problem though....all they have there are Bogens, nothing above the 503 so i don't have anything to compare them with.

brendan, i did read your thread about the Gitzo head and it does sound like a good deal... can you get a mid-level spreader with that rig? i haven't researched that set-up but i'll start when i finish this reply... so i'll want to sleep with it, eh?...

ken and charles, thanx for the wake-up about tilt....

danny

<<<-- brendan, i did read your thread about the Gitzo head and it does sound like a good deal... can you get a mid-level spreader with that rig? i haven't researched that set-up but i'll start when i finish this reply... so i'll want to sleep with it, eh?... -->>>


You can used the head with any tripod that supports a 75mm bowl (or should be able to). Any Bogen/Manfrotto or Gitzo sticks should work.

I use Gitzo's G1325 carbon fiber tripod which does not use a spreader. It's much more flexible without one (The G1325 has a minumum height of only four (4) inches), in my experience, and it's just as stable for anything 20-pounds or less (and any XL1/2 or JVC DV5000 falls into that category).

I'm not a fan of those big, heavy, bulky multi-section monstrosities. We're not talking 100-pound ENG cams here.

I followed Brendan's advice and I'm quite happy with the results. My one caveat is that I didn't get the carbon fiber... for some reason I like the "heavy" rubber feet on the aluminum pods. The rubber pops off and reveals a long stainless steel spike on each foot. Opting for this type of foot means an aluminum pod which weighs about a pound and a half more... the carbon fiber pod is listed as 4.5lbs on bogenphoto.com (manfrotto's site) and the 1345 (the one I bought) is listed as 6lbs... I figured if you add the weight of the rubber/stainless spike feet your looking at a difference of about a pound and a quarter for a little over $200. If you don't care about the feet then the difference is a pound and a half for only $159 more.

I ended up with Gitzo for simplicity, light weight, high capacity, super-low minimum height, good maximum height. The price is pretty good too.

I haven't played with a true-fluid pro head so I expect those are a little smoother then this head... but I think this one's worth a look-see. I'd like to get my hands on a Vinten or Satchler just to feel the difference. Still, I fully expect to have this pod for my entire life... the fact that I got the head/springs/bowl/legs all for the price B&H sells the head alone dint hurt either.

If you were swayed this way I'd be realistic and say it's a matter of function AND price... if cash was no issue for me I'd have gotten a Vinten or Satchler just for the piece of mind that you bought one of the best... but then again there is O'Conner... hmm, see my point? Your money... get the best if you can. Take a look at this option if you can't.

One of the big advantages of the Vinten series is the drag adjustments are continuously variable. This makes adjusting the drag to match cameras with different characteristics much easier. They are also adjustable over a much wider range. The drag adjustments are easily repeatable by setting them to the marks on the drag adjustment knobs.

Mid-level spreaders are indispensable for field work. Ground level spreaders are virtually useless on uneven ground. They are also slow to setup and adjust on uneven ground. Try using a tripod without a spreader on hard, slippery surfaces. Also tripods without spreaders suffer from torsional flexing (the legs flex and twist when you pan).

The Gitzo G1380 drag adjustments are continuously variable as well. It's really quite an exceptional head. I've played with the Bogen 501 and 503, the Vinten "Pro 5" combination, the Sachtler DV-4 and the Miller DS5. I can honestly say that the Gitzo G1380 is noticeably superior to all of them.

As far as the sticks go, the G1380 can handle up to 22 pounds, so any torsional flexing under such light loads, for panning, is a non-concern, especially considering a good $500 carbon fiber tripod like the Gitzo G1325 is so rigid to begin with. For such light cameras I just wasn't willing to deal with the hassle that any spreader introduces, particularly since I'm routinely on very uneven surfaces. Case in point, last night I was knee-deep in a running stream shooting a waterfall at dusk. A spreader would've been unusable for the shot I was making.

I can see for heavier cameras where a spreader is quite applicable, but were talking cameras up to ten or so pounds where quality tripods like the Gitzos can handle them with aplomb.

Of course, I am a newbie and you certainly have much, much more experience than I do -- so I offer my opinion in that vein. If Dale were shooting, or planning on shooting, with an ENG cam or some such animal, then I'd keep my trap shut and well defer to your judgement. But considering he is using a GL1 and may upgrade to the forthcoming XL2 I don't see any advantage in using a system more suitable for much larger, heavier rigs.

Naturally, I could be wrong and routinely am.

Have a look at this thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4927

so the Gitzo 1380 is the Bogen 505? is it a modified 505 or did they just slap their name on it? i have been reading the other threads about this head and it does sound nice... i've just read so many other threads about the Miller/Sachtler/Vinten being top choices. this is getting harder to decide. i guess if i had to pick one today it would probably be the Miller DS10 (price is about $1099 @ B&H with case/strap and mid-spreader)....choice is purely on the opinions that i've read and price is lower than the others (except the Gitzo).

i'm glad that i'm getting feedback on this... PLEASE keep it coming...it's all i have to go on. i'm gonna call Precision Camera here in austin and ask if they have a 505 or can get one since the majority of their stuff is Bogen (never seen anything above the 503 the 4 or 5 times i've been there). that's my main problem...if only there was a store here that had all these tripods side by side...

danny

The Gitzo is not a true fluid head (to the best of my knowledge). It is what I like to term a fluid effect head, because it uses friction, not fluid to achieve it's smoothness. The problem with friction heads is they wear, and are not temperature stable. Over time the head will require more and more tension or friction to achieve the same result. The results will also vary, depending on the temperature. They can also be more easily damaged by panning or tilting the head with the locks on. It's not good on any tripod, but worse on friction heads.

If you look closely the Gitzo head is nearly identical to one of the Bogen heads (also friction). Manfrotto is now cross branding several of their models.

hey frank..i did read that thread...twice i think. i called Leo's Camera and they quoted me a price of 2299 Canadian dollars for the system i wanted (DS 10 -2 stage) and the case was an extra 200. i asked the guy what the US equivalent was and he didn't know...he thought it was .70 US to the Canadian 1.00 ...is that right? he also told me that shipping would take an extra 7 days and some story how these reps sent them a can of popcorn and it cost Leo's 40 dollars to clear customs...is the duty tax (is that what it is?) gonna be alot? i haven't sent an inquiry to the Tasmania dudes yet....i asked you about the cost of getting one sent over but you hadn't ordered one yet (on the other forum).... do you happen to know what the charges are?

danny

http://www.oanda.com/convert/classic

You're thinking about the low-end Gitzo G2380, I believe. The G1380 is, indeed, a true fluid head -- that's why B&H sells the head alone for $809.

With a decent set of sticks, like the CF Bogens that DV.com just reviewed, you'll easily exceed $2,000. For that money I certainly hope it's a bonafide fluid head. In fact, the word "Fluide" is labeled right across the thing.

<<<-- Originally posted by Danny Dale : so the Gitzo 1380 is the Bogen 505? is it a modified 505 or did they just slap their name on it? -->>>

Actually, it is Bogen who "slaps their name on it." It is a Gitzo original that Bogen (the North America importer for both Manfrotto and Gitzo) imports and rebadges as the 505. The Bogen version is actually cheaper by about $100, but I don't know if something is missing in the Bogen kit (like the six springs) or what.

Bogen is a wholly owned subsidiary of Manfrotto. The Bogen family sold their interest after Lester Bogen died. Manfrotto bought Gitzo when they were about to go out of business. Tripods and such are not Manfrottos biggest business, they make department store fixtures and mannequins.

On the Bogen site, the Gitzo head is clearly labeled as having "Lubricated Friction Drag Controls".

Frank
You're right you old dog! leos and Miller Canada are at the same address. Leos should be able to compete on a whole pile of brands.


http://www.millercanada.com/home.html



Don't Manfrotto own Gitzo. Bogen is just the distributor in the US and screws the numbering system up big time for the rest of the world.

Manfrotto owns both Bogen and Gitzo. The Bogen name is to well known in the States to switch it to the parent company. It would be a huge mistake, the Bogen name is probably known by every SLR, medium and large format photographer in the States.

<<<-- On the Bogen site, the Gitzo head is clearly labeled as having "Lubricated Friction Drag Controls". -->>>

Jeff, thanks for clarification on the whole Bogen/Manfrotto/Gitzo relationship. I wasn't aware that they all slept in the same bed, but I suppose that's why some of the products are identical only with different badges.

As far as the "Lubricated Friction Drag Controls" are concerned, isn't that what all "fluid" heads are? The big difference being that many of the cheaper heads who claim to be a "fluid" are indeed just friction -- without the fluid?

I mean, there has to be frictional contact in there somewhere, right?

Brendan, I'm glad you followed up your own post. I was about to correct your thinking on this head. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but it is NOT a true fluid head. "Fluide" is a term used to accomplish what it did in your case... it's misleading.

A true fluid head pushes oil through valving to accomplish what we feel as drag. Closing off valving creates resistance to increase the drag effect.

The super expensive heads aren't filled with pixy-dust... there is a little basis to justify the high price... proving again that more or less, you get what you pay for.

In our case I feel like we got a lot more then we paid for, but I wouldn't argue that the g1380 head is anywhere near the absolute best... in reality I'll wager that anybody in here would pick this head over any other head under $1k if they were blindfolded though.

Just because this head creates drag from the friction between two lubricated dissimilar surfaces... doesn't mean it isn't amazingly smooth and pleasurable to use.

Hey all you happy readers! If you enjoy the posts you've read from Matt Gettemeier (tm) about this topic then please apply them to memory because I've just reached that "magic moment" where I can no longer look at this new tripod system as anything other then a "tool"... aww, all that money and now I'm just tossing it into a bag until tomorrow. After a million pans and tilts and countless hours of admiring the almost hydraulic feel of this head, I'm bored. It's just another hammer, but it's a damn good one that I plan to use in some quality video construction.

Use what you brung. If your pod is total crap then nobody has to tell you. You already know. If your pod is decent then enjoy it and make some beautiful video.

Best Regards... Now go use your video talents for good, not evil. What? Never mind... too much wine.

Oh yeah, a message to DD... get the absolute best pod you can afford... if it's Miller, get that. If it's Vinten or Satchler, get that. You will almost never regret spending too much on an item like this... it's far more likely that you'll later regret spending too little.

By all means use the online coverter to check but the safest way to do bussuness is use your credit card so long as the company will accept it.

If I buy something from the US (I'm Canadian) or if I travel to the US I use my credit card and I'm ensured that i will receive the best and the latest conversion rates.There is usually a 2 or 3% spread between buy and sell in currencies. If the banktae is .70 US for one can dollar then you'll usually pay $0.72. A month or so ago it was 63 cents

Matt: I've just reached that "magic moment" where I can no longer look at this new tripod system as anything other then a "tool".Indeed, been there...twice. You do your research, take your best swing and then on to the next pitch! There is some curious, hypnotic aspect to shopping for a tripod that's akin only to that of shopping for a camera.
Matt: You will almost never regret spending too much on an item like this... it's far more likely that you'll later regret spending too little.Short of facing mortgage foreclosure or sacrifice of the kids' college funds, this is very true. Your abililty to resell top-grade equipment will likely be better. Plus, trying to save a buck may actually end-up being a "wish-I-would-have" tax when/if you ultimately spring for what you really wanted/needed in the first place.

Thanks for the education, Matt and Jeff.

I jess love lernin' gnu things! ;-)

Getting back to the original questions of sorts. Assuming you get two different cameras, fluid heads are better able to accommodate the different weights, center of gravity, etc. Friction heads wear much easier than fluid heads. A friction head that is used on heavier loads, wears a certain way. When a lighter camera is used, the wear causes the head to have different performance characteristics. In other words it will pan one way with a heavy load and a different way for lighter loads. By no means is it impossible for the operator to switch tripod handling styles, but it does make the job harder.

Friction heads typically wear faster and need to be rebuilt more often (or replaced). True fluid heads wear also, but unless abused, at a much slower rate. Fluid heads are more costly to rebuild. My original fluid head, an O'Connor 50, is almost 20 years old and has been rebuilt once at a cost of $500. My original Sachtler Video 16 is over 10 years old and has never been rebuilt.

If used with any regularity, I would say that the average well built friction head, will need to be rebuilt every 3 to 5 years. The frequency will depend on the weight of the camera used on it, how the tripod is treated, and frequency of use. Operator handling is key. I've seen many friction heads damaged by operators forgetting to unlock the movements or over tightening the friction controls.

My advice is to get the very best you can afford. To me the tripod is second only to the camera in importance. No amount of fixing in post will cure bad or sloppy moves.

You guys will have to forgive me for adding a slight change in direction to this thread, but everybody's been so cool on this thread that I'd rather post it here. Also I think it IS related to the subject at hand, getting the best pod for the money... so that you can make the best moves for your video.

Does anybody else like two arms on their head? (No obvious jokes here.) I feel that if any pan speed change or slight studder occurs that the effort used with both hands/arms dampens human induced error. Some may pose the argument that using two hands doubles the chances for human induced mistakes, but personally I'm abidexterous and I find that I can control my own inadequacy with my other hand... anybody else feel the same?

My point is that as a shopper, I would also choose a head that allows for left or right pan arm mount. That way you can use two arms if your doing a lot of tele/critical work on a given day.

The second bonus of this is that if you are doing close up work and want to use an off cam shotgun you can mount your Magic Arm* to the side you aren't using for the second pan arm... that way the cam and mic are pointed at the subject and the mic is plenty far off cam to eliminate handling/cam noise AND because of the (hopefully) smooth motion of the head your mic will be perfectly boomed for you.

*In case you don't know, Manfrotto makes a handy little item called a Magic Arm... it is just like your arm with an elbow and two rotating ball ends with studs... then a flip of the lever or a twist of the dial (your choice of style) locks the articulated arm into whatever position you put it in... VERY clever... also very handy for one man shooting where you don't have the luxury of a seperate sound man. Look into it, you'll be glad you did. BTW it can also hold lights or an umbrella. You'll thank me after you get one.

So to recap. One or two arms? I say sometimes one, sometimes two... in my case it was only an extra $35 to have the second arm as an option... for me this ability is one to pay attention to when you buy a head.

And to answer the question about why the Gitzo g1380 costs $100 more then the Bogen 505? The Gitzo includes 1 extra spring (6 rather then 5... and at $40-$75 a pop that matters) and Gitzo also uses a beautiful gray/black metalic finish that complicates production more then a simple black powdercoat. Easy $100 difference.

ok, some really good info here. a couple replies have been "get the best you can afford"....but the advice i'm looking for is whether the tilt/pan action on the Sachtler DV6 or Vinten Vision 3 worth the extra $600 over the Miller DS10, or, am i paying that much just for the extra features (adjustable tilt/drag)? i originally was looking at the DV4 (same price as DS10) but i really do want a mid-level spreader and i believe i have to go with a DV6 for that (puts the price up there with the Vinten)...i'm gonna call B&H to ask about that. the price difference could pay for my next acquisition..the ME-66 + some accessories.

i know i have asked those questions before but i guess i'm looking for the tripod gods to respond "yes, you'll notice a difference right away"...or "there's not that much difference, save the cash and get the mike". i know this might sound silly to some but i think it helps....

either way, your replies have helped tremendously...

danny

What is the likelihood you are going to end up with two different cameras?

i've been getting into DV more and more. originally i bought the GL1 for work to document destructive investigations of building/residence envelopes...all the mold stuff that is going around...we open up the walls and ceilings while we leak test windows/roofs/doors and document how water gets into the building. couldn't capture the water coming in with stills like i can with video and i needed something good since the footage ends up in court cases. i love the size of the GL1 for this kind of work. i also started filming live concert footage of a band here in austin and am working on the interview footage to accompany the live stuff. i see myself doing more of this and i need another camera..something better..possibly the not yet XL2 or something along the XL1s size...24/30 progressive...ability to change lenses...bigger chips and such. not in any hurry, but i will upgrade. that is why i want to plan ahead and make sure that the system i buy can be used with it...i know that it is wrong to plan for something not yet available, but i'm assuming that the XL2 will be similar in weight to the XL1s. so, yes i'll have two different cameras at some point.

danny

In the final analysis, you're still talking about very small, very light DV cams -- none of which are going to put much stress or strain on any head/tripod combination you ultimately wind up with.

Having tried the Miller DS-5, the Sachtler DV-4, and the Vinten "Pro 5" (hard to find) I can honestly say that the Gitzo G1380 (or Bogen 505, if you prefer) simply thumped them all for feel on both pan and tilt, as well as overall quality. The others seemed to have a lot of plastic, where the Gitzo is all metal.

That said, I never would've bought the Gitzo for the going B&H price of (today) $849 sans tripod (another $500 minimum). When I stumbled across the deal from Henry's in Toronto I jumped! Who wouldn't have for $338?!

Up until that point it was between the Miller DS-5 w/DS-2 sticks, the Vinten "Pro 5," or the Sachtler DV-4"II". I wanted the Gitzo, but not for the extra money. I'm no pro, but it's clear the Gitzo has a much more durable feel to it and it supports up to 22 pounds with interchangeable counterbalance springs where no such weight or flexibility is supported with the others.

The Sachtler DV4 lacks a mid-level spreader option (to the best of my knowledge). It's drag settings are too few. The Miller DS-5 is too small for the XL series in my opinion. Does it have a mid-level spreader option? The Vinten Pro 5 is an older model, the 3 and 6 are current (couldn't find the 5 on the web site). The six would be the way to go for me. Mid-level spreader, infinitely variable drag, tilt +/- 90° But probably too much money. The head alone is around $1,500. So, where does all this lead you. If you can try a couple and see what feels the best to you. May somebody in our town rents one or two of the tripods. They'll let you at least touch and feel for free.

well, i finally decided.....it's Miller time! i ordered the DS10 2-stage with case from BnH. it ended up being a financial choice. in order to get a Sachtler with a mid-level spreader i would have to get the DV8 (which was too much), and the Vinten Vision 3 with a mid-level spreader would cost an additional $600 (which was way too much). i ended up going with the lower priced Miller and ordered a Sennheiser ME 66/K6 with some accessories as well....

thanx to all who gave their input,

danny

Good for you, Danny! I don't think you'll be disappointed. I think the DS-10 is the best overall value in its load range and would be hard-pressed to relinquish mine. The DS-10 was reportedly designed specifically with the original XL1 in mind.

For those considering the Gitzo G-1338 system (G1325 legs, G1380 Head, case, self-leveling ball insert) at $1600 street price, think twice. The head is not as smooth as a Sachtler DV-6 or DV-8. The drag feels different at certain points in the revolution, and it also varies whether you are going clockwise or counterclockwise. Locking down the head in the pan or tilt axis is also a royal pain in the butt. Two very balky levers have to be set in place. They even put the pan bar in wrong. Maybe it's the Manfrotto influence causing a degradation in quality, but I'm disappointed enough in the system that I'm returning it to B&H. As great as the legs are, and as brilliant an idea as the self-leveling system is, the head just does not measure up.