Mike:

Thanks for your reply.

The Avid DNxHD codec does not show up in the VirtualDub compression dialog box.

Does VirtualDub does have the ability to render out files based on quicktime codecs? I'm not sure it does, but I have little to no experience w/ VirtualDub.

You wrote, "Set the compression to the QT codec with all the settings you want." I assume you mean VirtualDub -> Video -> Compression as you mentioned in post #25? Is that correct or is their another place to do this?

Thanks,
Rastus

Rastus, Now that you mention it. The QT codecs don't show up in Virtualdubmod. I must have seen them in Vegas. Sorry my mistake. Vdub needs a vfw compatible codec and it appears the QT ones are not. Which is a shame. I'm not familiar with Avid DxHxD ... is that better than H.264 and Sorenson3?

Thanks Ajit, and Mike. I don't have those options. Sadly, I think my version of Vegas is simply too old, and in light of that, I am going to lay off a bit on trying to perfect my process (I'm keeping this thread handy, however, you have provided a ton of valuable information). Frankly, the video that I am taking and editing looks great to me, with the exception of some slight detail loss after I render in Vegas.

What exactly does removing the 24P Pulldown do to videos?

Rick, are you on Vegas 6 or much lower? The resolution loss is probably due to your codec choice. Funny thing, I knew someone with Vegas 6 which is where I learned to use the product and I thought that was more flexible than the new 7 in terms of encoding. As long as your videos look good then you should be happy.

24p pulldown removes the ghosting/blurring that you get with the interlaced wrapper. Vegas is usually smart enough when you tell it to blend/interpolate to give you decent video. Same case with Movie Maker when encoding WMV9. On occasion you'll see a glitch. Some people don't notice the glitch until they've compared footage with and without pulldown running in front of them. Sometimes your display might be kind enough to mask it from you. I watch most of my footage on a PC and add effects so the ghosting/blurring/combing is more apparent to me with my unsteady footage.

Rick, the pulldown removal process basically strips the interlaced frames out of the 24p footage and leaves only the progressive frames behind. This gives you a pure progressive clip. You can leave the interlaced frames in there and do some blending etc, but often what you will see will be some "ghosting" in the final output file. Depending on the clips it may or may not be noticeable.

--Steve
Steve, I pretty much understand what you are saying about how the pulldowne.ex file removes the interlced frames. I have mentioned my workflow in another post before but I was told that I was doing it the wrong way. Before the existence of your software I was using MPEGStreamClip. What i di was...

...Capture my files with HDVSplit (which seperated all of the clips perfectly).
...Brought my clps ito the Vegas timeline and edited away
...Rendered the file to MainConcept MPEG2 (M2T), but instead of the 25,000,000 bit HDV rate I did it at 60,000,000 bits 29.97 upper frame first
...I ran that .m2t file through MPEG StreamClip (knowing that MPEG StreamClip supported pulldown) and it came out perfect.

Someone in this forum explained to me that because I had to click on the deinterlace button within MPEGStreamClip that I was not really looking at "true" progressive frames (I understand the reasoning behind that but that program "does" support pulldown removal and it seems clicking deinerlace was the only way to do that). Because of what he said i gave up on that method....but.....then came your HV20Pulldown.exe. So..what i did was try out that same method again but this time i used your program instead of MPEGStreamClip. My reasoning for doing this was because if it worked then there would be no excuse of deinterlacing. Guess what? It worked. Every time. All ghostig/blending was gone and the video was progressive all the way through. And this was only usig your program at the very last step.

It looked so good that I decided to do some tests. I used your program on a RAW m2T file and rendered it out as file "A." I took the same RAW m2T footage and placed it on a Vegas timeline ...rendered it out to another M2T file and then ran that file through your software as footage "B." To my suprise both footage were identical....a perfect match...not only in size...but I blew both of them up 400% and they matched pefectly even down to the grain of the picture. I opened them both up at the same time in two instances of VDUB and walked through the entire 4 minutes of footage, FRAME BY FRAME and they were perfectly matched. NO DEGRADATION AT ALL. Both files were the same size and frame length.

At this point I am saying to myself...how does the software do its pulldown removal? It must somehow intelligently find the interlaced footage and automatically remove them. There is clearly no deinterlacing done with this software so that ruled that out. I posted my findings in the forum but the only logical response i got was that it worked because I only used one footage and there was no cuts, transitions or any kind of editing in the footage on the timeline. I said fair enough and I went back and repeated the whole process...but this time while on the Vegas timeline I added other footage...did cuts...fades..and all kinds of editing. Guess what...the results were exactly the sme...pulldown was removed from the Vegas rendered file and there was absolutely no degredation of the file compared to the RAW footage.

So I ask myself? Why am I even bothering to go to an intermediate codec when I am able to render a whole edited footage with the same exact result. At this point it does not seem to make any sense.

I challenge anyone on this forum to give this a try. You will be hard pressed to find any difference in the Processed and Unprocessed M2T files (so to speak). What I have been doing is using the HV20Pulldown.exe as the very last step giving me only one large file and then using that file to make smaller more internet friendly copies which still looks magnificent. this would save people a ton of hard drive space. Tell me, is there somethng that i am missing here?

I sincerily apologize for the long post.

Ian

Ian, you have a point with your workflow. Since you're doing all your editing in interlace you can do pulldown removal at the end. I'll have to confirm if I don't get any artifacts from cadence that doesn't quite join evenly. I used to have that problem when I was using the MPEG Streamclip from the front-end.

As for MPEG Streamclip, I did read that 1.8 had full support for 23.976 3:2 pulldown removal. If it came in at the end of your process, I can see where it wouldn't be much trouble to drag one large mpeg-2 to process rather than a bunch of clips.

Could you confirm if these are your default project settings: HDV 1080-60i, 29.970 Upper field first, 1.3333 Aspect, Rendering: Good, Motion blur: Gaussian, Deinterlace: None

Could you confirm if these are your default project settings: HDV 1080-60i, 29.970 Upper field first, 1.3333 Aspect, Rendering: Good, Motion blur: Gaussian, Deinterlace: None
Mike....that's exacly the same settings I used. This is cool. I'm glad someone else is finally giving this a try. I really need to confirm this.

edit: Correction..instead of Good it should be Best.

Ian, you have a winner! I followed your method and used HV20pulldown.exe on the intermediate file (mainconcept mpeg2) and the effects applied were not affected by 3:2 pulldown removal. There were some artifacts on text I had on the front of the test project but I think that is more to do with the WMV9 codec because all the other text that followed were fine. The effects I applied were overlay text, one with blurred overlay text, and image rotation. I compared the 24p of the individual clips (also WMV9) versus the total project and had pulldown as post, there were no glaring differences.

I can see the advantage of this in total saved time:
1) No need to pre-render to true 24p
2) Editing m2t (though lossy) is still "faster" than fullsize lossless especially for slower systems
3) Space requirement: 12GB per tape + project mainconcept render + final render

Here's the result of the project:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/0vz70u <- 59MB (mainconcept mpeg2 was 908MB)

I used 'good' on this render, didn't see your comment to use 'best' until after ... but it's still good. I have to change the way I work with videos a bit with this new workflow. Pulldown removal should be done to create the 24p render ... that render can then be converted to a different codec/format/aspect afterwards.

Ian, you have a winner! I followed your method and used HV20pulldown.exe on the intermediate file (mainconcept mpeg2) and the effects applied were not affected by 3:2 pulldown removal. There were some artifacts on text I had on the front of the test project but I think that is more to do with the WMV9 codec because all the other text that followed were fine. The effects I applied were overlay text, one with blurred overlay text, and image rotation. I compared the 24p of the individual clips (also WMV9) versus the total project and had pulldown as post, there were no glaring differences.

I can see the advantage of this in total saved time:
1) No need to pre-render to true 24p
2) Editing m2t (though lossy) is still "faster" than fullsize lossless especially for slower systems
3) Space requirement: 12GB per tape + project mainconcept render + final render

Here's the result of the project:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/0vz70u <- 59MB (mainconcept mpeg2 was 908MB)

I used 'good' on this render, didn't see your comment to use 'best' until after ... but it's still good. I have to change the way I work with videos a bit with this new workflow. Pulldown removal should be done to create the 24p render ... that render can then be converted to a different codec/format/aspect afterwards.
This is great. I knew it would work. I have been doing it this way for almost two weeks now and was wondering if anyone else was doing the same. I'm glad it woked for you. My initial reason for doing this was because I was hoping there was another way of working without using these huge intermediate files and taking up lots of hard drive space.

I suspect if HV20pulldown.exe used flags to remove the pulldown then this method would not have worked because I believe the flag information would have been stripped from the "Vegas Rendered" file. But it is obvious that it utilizes a whole different method to remove pulldown and that is what I based my initial experimentation on. What I am even more amazed at is the quality of the final ouput.

Ian, yes if we had flags we'd probably be using forcefilm rather than TIVTC and it might not have worked. DGIndex (which is called by Steve's HV20Pulldown.exe) probably works by comparing frame to frame to determine whether its a mixed half-frame or the same progressive frame (only so many combinations of 3:2 / 2:3 you can be in).

For me, this is great for an all PF24 project as it saves on the pre-render time (it takes my fastest PC 1 night to re-render a full tape to WMV9). If I'm mixing 60i and PF24 sources, I suspect running IVTC in post will munge the 60i source. I'm hoping it won't ... if someone has mixed sources and some time I'd like to see how it turns out.

Hey Ian, this workflow is incredibly efficient, but I have what may be a really stupid question- is there any inherent benefit to exporting the mainconcept mpeg at 60 mbits as opposed to the default 25?

Hey Ian, this workflow is incredibly efficient, but I have what may be a really stupid question- is there any inherent benefit to exporting the mainconcept mpeg at 60 mbits as opposed to the default 25?Honestly Tim, I don't know. I would think so. Knowing that the HDV codec is already a lossy format I look at it like this:

If you take an orginal paper document and made a copy of it on a standard office copy machine the copy usually appears to be a little different (whether a little lighter or other artifacts introduced) but if you had a super high end copy machine (one that copies at about 3 times the normal resolution) then you are guaranteed more of an exact duplicate of the original.

So...in my analogy...HDV would be like the standard copier...but when you bump up it's capacity 3 times (in this case almost 2.5 times..25,000,000 to 60,000,000) then you have a better chance of keeping or duplication its original resolution.

Sorry for this corny analogy...but...that's where my mind is at.

Edit: I know there are probably others laughing at this but...blah blah blah.

Hi Steve:

I've searched the forums for an answer but no luck. I have the same problem that another poster had, but unfortunatley, updating the HV20pulldown.exe didn't solve my problem. The error I keep getting is:

Avisynth open failure:
Script error: Invalid arguments to funtion "Delay Audio"
(m:\working\cliptest.avs, line 2)

Even though files appear to have been produced to the work folder, the only file that will show up in Vegas is the Audio file. I installed, and placed everything to the letter per instructions, but no luck. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Steve Boutin

Steve,
Your problem sounds like a DGIndex problem. Make sure you are using DGIndex 1.49. Unclick the 'Remove DGIndex temporary files option.' Dump your m2t file in a directory that has no spaces or special characters. Make sure you are using the correct template.avs. Then give it a try. If it doesn't produce an mpa file we'll have to look at it again.

Contents of template.avs:
v=MPEG2Source("__vid__")
a=MPASource("__aud__")
audiodub(v,a)
TFM(d2v="__vid__")
tdecimate()
DelayAudio(-0.222)

OK, thanks, I'll try that.

Steve Boutin

Thanks, changing the template worked, but now I get the 'out of disc space 4gig file size FAT32 partition' error. Is there a work around for this? BTW, what I saw of the clip before I got the error looked GREAT!

Thanks,
Steve Boutin

Steve, FAT32 has a 4Gig limit to files. If you're working with uncompressed or lossless formats you should convert to NTFS (if you've got a special condition like Linux dual boot there are ways to r/w these fs nowadays, if you still don't like that one you can install ext2 filesystem drivers). If you don't mind the performance hit from long GOP, you could convert to a lossy format like WMV.

[QUOTE=Mike Dulay;707180]Steve, FAT32 has a 4Gig limit to files. If you're working with uncompressed or lossless formats you should convert to NTFS.QUOTE]

That's what I'm going to do. I Googled the procedure to convert to NTFS, and it looks pretty simple to do, and fairly safe. Would it be better to actually format an external drive, instead of converting my C: drive. Or is that even possible?

Thanks
steve Boutin

I've not had any problems with NTFS conversion of a boot drive before. As for using external drives, USB 2.0 is usually fast enough but I still prefer to use internal drives. In 24p conversion, you're more CPU bound than I/O. Converting the external is probably safest if you're not comfortable with messing with C:

Thanks for picking up on those answers Mike. I haven't been on the boards for about a week now, went to go to NY for my grandmothers funeral.

Steve, I won't use FAT on any of my drives and haven't for years now. NTFS is certainly the way to go there. For external hard drives, I recently picked up a 500g WD myBook. Had some frustration with them about the firewire cable (mine was bad and getting a replacement was a real pain) but it works great, either USB 2.0 or Firewire. Like Mike, I do prefer the internal drives as well, but the externals are really cheap now and you can just unhook them and store them like you would your tape, until you need them again.

While in NY, I took about 4 hours of tape. I shot everything in 24p, mostly in cinema mode (a little in TV mode). This is the first time that I have shot everything in 24p and boy I'm hoping it comes out! I'll be spending the rest of the weekend here doing the conversions back and forth. Got some nice shots from the plane of downtown Chicago (not 24p though) as well as just outside of Vegas with the canyons. I might have to toss together a "From the Plane" video if I get the chance.

--Steve

Sorry to hear about your grandmother, Steve (S.). Glad you're back. Hope your 24p footage comes out clean. Ironically, now I'm experimenting with 60i -- its tricky switching from the "progressive" mindset.

Steve B., NTFS is quite robust especially for external drives. Knock on wood, I haven't lost a file from an accidental power off. USB 2.0 is fast enough. Technically, Firewire 400 has more available bandwidth but some people on the forums have reported issues with the HV20 hooked up on the same card concurrently.

Thanks Mike, we had been expecting it but of course had been hoping that she might improve (she had alzheimers and was in a very rapid decline over the past month).

So far the clips are looking pretty good. This is the first "real" test of my own application aside from some test clips! Most of them have come out really good so far but some will need a little color correction here and there. Of course I left my tripod at home, so there's a bit of motion as well, until I remembered to turn on the image stabilizer! Got some nice clips of a retired destroyer (The Sullivans), a cruiser (Little Rock) and a WWII submarine (The Croaker). I was more surprised by some of the footage shot out of the airplane window during the trip though. Got a beautiful shot of downtown Chicago just before sunset as well as a nice pan down the strip in Vegas (looks like from the Wynn casino down to the Luxor). The plane was moving at a perfect pace along the strip so I didn't really have to do too much.

60i huh? Yeah, for some clips I still prefer it just because 24p hasn't yet come into my full comfort zone. For the kids little league, there's no way I was going to do 24p with all of the fast panning required. I figure it'll be a few more months before I can truly start appreciating what this camera can do!

--Steve

Thanks guy's for all the help. I bought PartitionMagic, and didn't have to do anything except click the mouse a couple of times, everything works great. I'm also using a MY BOOK USB drive, it's a real workhorse. My internal drive was already formatted to NTFS, I didn't even know it. Anyway, everything is good now. Thanks again, Steve B

Steve, thanks for those links. Will read them over to see if anything can help. Tried to tape some more footage and it did not work either. I hope I can figure this out.

I finally got it to work!!!

Ian & Mike, I am trying your method and was wondering what compression you are choosing in HV20pulldown. Also what type of project are you starting with in Vegas (60i or 24p HDV)? Thanks.

Ian G. Thompson, I've been trying to duplicate your process:

1. "Template" i choose HDV 1080-60i
2. "Custom" section and make sure it says "Upper Field First" in Field Order
3. Set the video quality to High
4. Leave "Film Rate" at 29.970
5. Leave "Constant bit rate (bps) checked and raise that to 60,000,000
6. The "Output Type" should say HDV,

but no matter what I do, all thet happens is:

Vegas starts the render, but I have waited up to 17 minutes, and still at 0% render. Any ideas what I am doing wrong? The clip is only 44 secs. long. I don't know if this matters, but what is your project template for Vegas timeline before you render.

Thanks
Steve B

After about 3 trys with the template, I just started over step by step, and pressed OK without renaming the new template, and it worked perfectly. Just one of those puter thangs i guess.

steve B

Duane, if your final output is 24p then setup your project as 24p. It doesn't mean you're locked in to that though. When you render you can still change your output size and framerate, but the project settings affect what you see in preview.

I spent 3 hours writing a complete tutorial on my blog on how to make the guidelines in this thread to work with minimal headaches. All needed information, hopefully in one place: http://eugenia.blogsome.com/2007/07/13/canon-hv20-24f-pulldown/

I spent 3 hours writing a complete tutorial on my blog on how to make the guidelines in this thread to work with minimal headaches. All needed information, hopefully in one place: http://eugenia.blogsome.com/2007/07/13/canon-hv20-24f-pulldown/Wow...i must say excellent job on compiling all that data in one document.

Eugenia, Your blog states that "There are two commercial utilities that will perform the pulldown for you during tape capture, but the first, TMPGEnc 4.0 XPress, costs $99 and the other one, NeoHDV..." are you saying that TMPGEnc 4.0 XPress works the same as Cineform? For $99. Why has this not been mentioned in this entire thread or did I miss that?

Thanks.Steve Boutin

Hi, I was having some trouble getting the pulldown script to work but now everything is working fine. Meanwhile, I was editing using HV20 footage without pulldown. If I render my edited footage in vegas using 60i, then perform pulldown using Steve's script, will it perform the pulldown removal correctly? I don't want to have to re-edit everything using new clips.

Thanks

At least with the test using Vegas output in 60i m2t (see Ian's method) with no velocity changes, it works to do the pulldown removal in post.

It worked! this saves me a lot of time...The only problem I have now is that the audio is not properly synched. Any more advice?

Thanks,
Kevin

You should check the avs file generated by HV20Pulldown.exe if the delayaudio() line is properly populated with the same value as in the mpa file. You will have to re-run the pulldown removal but uncheck the option to remove the temporary file. While it's running go to the temporary directory and look at the files.

E.g. file...delay -234 ...mpa

Look inside file....avs; last line should say delayaudio(-234).

If this is not true, you may have the wrong template.avs loaded (go to Steve's website for the file). Hope that helps.

Hi! I wonder if anyone has managed to adapt this automated workflow with the Blackmagic MJPEG codec ? So instead of HDV -> 24P Inverse Telecine -> MJPEG

the new workflow would be

MJPEG -> 24P Inverse Telecine -> MJPEG

Anmol, you could modify the script to use the avisynth AVI routines if your mjpeg file is avi. Why don't you give it a try?

I am using Eugenia's instructions. I have the correct version of TIVTC - but the keeper03_24p that I get is 481 MB (using YUY2 and lagarith). From Eugenia's description it should be 295MB.

Any suggestions about what I am doing wrong ?
Thanks!

The call to virtualdubmod is probably running RGB (default--I think Sony Vegas likes this more, which is what a number of us used while this method was developed) vs YUV2 if your sizes are off. I haven't tried Eugenia's version of the method, but I'd look at the generated avs file. You should run Steve's exe but keep the generated avs file. Then open that avs manually using virtualdubmod and play around with the compression options and mode.

Here's the old method before Steve automated it, maybe it will give you clues on running it manually:
http://yousillyman.blogspot.com/2007/05/making-true-24p-sources-out-of-hv20-m2t.html

Oh, Eugenia and Steve are active at the other forum where Farnsworth's original method was posted.

Anmol actually fixed the big file size, by installing the XDiV library as shown in the tutorial and possibly by re-installing lagarith.