I’m reading the DVi website for some months now. It has helped me a lot with choosing my video equipment. I’m still learning and have doubts and questions, but I wanted to start in this forum by making a positive contribution.

I’ve read about the different methods people use to mount a smaller diameter mic to the mic shoe of the Z1 but most of them I consider rather bulky, so I tried to come up with an adaptor of my own. I took a 45mm (1 ¾") rubber tube with 5mm (3/16”) thick walls I had lying around the house, and cut out two pieces of 36 (1 3/8”) by 33 mm (1 5/16”), the shorter measurement being the curved part of the tube. I cut the edges straight (the angle is somewhat important) and sanded them down (a piece of 120 sandpaper on a piece of wood) a little (depending on the thickness of the mic), and then clicked them in place inside the mic holder off the Sony Z1. The pieces never fall out even if I open the mic holder. They hold the mic very well. A lightweight and practical solution for my Sennheiser 416 and AKG393B that could work for other microphone and camera models as well.

I hope this helps.

Johan

Biggest problem we've found is the mic holder on the Z1 doesn't provide enough isolation. We're using the Rode rubber band kind of mount. By drilling two extra holes we can use it in place of the original Z1 mount. Need to remove all the other mounting hardware from the Rode unit first.
Will see if I can post a pic shortly.

I cut off the end of a broomstick. The plastic cap at the end just happened to fit perfectly into the Z1 holder. Then I screwed a Rode shock mount onto the stick. Works great!

I would post a picture if I only know how I could send you a Picture by email if you want. The farther away the mic from the camera the less the camera noise I imagine, but on the other hand if the mic holder is supposed to be good enough for a thick Sony microphone (isolated by some very thin pieces of rubber inside the mic holder) than I think it will certainly be good enough for a 18mm diameter sennheiser 416 with several mm (4 mm of extra rubber on either side of the mic) of extra isolation. I haven’t found any problems with camera noise.

I don’t like the idea of an extra shockmount sticking out above the micholder fitted with a piece of wood or metal that much. Nor do I like to put tape on the mic to make it thicker. That why I looked for a more simple solution, which by the way is very cheap and easy to make. The trick is just to use a large (45mm for example) diameter rubber pipe. Putting a piece of this in the smaller opening of the Z1 mic holder creates a tension that holds the pieces of rubber in their place. You almost don’t notice the pieces to be there. They look as if they are part of the existing micholder. No need to buy Rode in this instance if you ask me.

Thank you for the reply by the way.

Johan

I just saw your fotos Vito. My first reaction was: that is some big solution. At least it will give you enough isolation I suppose. Seems to be a rather thick mic or am I mistaken.. It that case you can not use 4mm thick rubber as I did.

Johan

Yeah. I thought about using rubber or something, but I wanted to use the shockmount. I hear so much handling noise from the built in mic, that I was ready to look for better isolation.

So far, it's worked great. Don't hear any handling noise at all. So I got what I wanted!

Cheers,
Vito

But still. Wouldn’t you rather use the existing micholder if it could be made to work equally well as your shockmount?

The build in mic is another issue. If I use the internal mic I can’t even touch a button of the camera or I record the noise it makes.

Also cheers,

Johan

Perhaps, but it doesn't stress me out. I'm perfectly happy with the way it is. If it annoyed me somehow, I suppose I would change it....

And with the way I have it, I could mount other things on the side of the stick by screwing on another shoe or something.

Why change? When it’s something invented by oneself, you personalize the camera, you love it more to work with, and in the end you will make better pictures….I think so.

Why change? When it’s something invented by oneself, you personalize the camera, you love it more to work with, and in the end you will make better pictures….I think so.

I couldn't agree more. Anything you do that makes you more involved with your craft only fuels the passion for being more creative and more adept.
Congrats to finding a good solution for yourself, Vito!

Thanks, Douglas, for the kind words. And you as well, Johan. A fun discussion.

Vito,
we've been using almost exactly the same solution as you've devised except we've used the complete SM5 unit from Rode, here's a link to it:
http://www.rodemic.com/?pagename=Products&product=SM5

Only problem we've found is so far is out of 4 Z1s, two have had the Sony mic holder crack from the load, it's only plastic.

So as I mentioned before and sorry I wasn't able to get a photo today, what we've done is to take off the Sony holder and attach the same shock mount as you've screwed to the wood directly into the two threaded holes originally used to hold the Sony original mic holder. To do this you need to enlarge one of the holes in the Rode unit to 3.5 or 4.0mm and drill another hole 28mm from that hole, preferably slightly off centre to compensate for the angle of the LCD screen assembly.

This modified Rode shock mount can then be affixed with 2x 10mm long M3 round head screws. I'll try to get a photo asap, it's really obvious once you see what I've done although you do need a drill press and a vice as the Rode mount is hard to hold while you drill the holes.

Reason for going to all this bother is the Sony mount seems to allow noise from the zoom, head motors and handling into the mic, there's just not enough mechanical isolation. The Rode mount seems to solve that problem with both 416 and Rode mics.

The main problem with this solution, which is certainly quite inventive, is the closeness to the Z1. Camera noises or handling noises will be picked up by the mic.

My suggestion would be to use a longer stick, putting the mic as up front as possible, holding the mic on a rubber suspension from it.

Some tests on different stick materials and/or how to damp them should be in order. That might be the harder part of this project, which may not be too hard to achieve.

To test this, find a quiet place and use a sensitive headphone, cranking the input level up to the top. Even if this might be overkill and unrealistic, it should let you pick the right stuff for your project.

The rubber strings should be chosen too. One problem of suspensions that use the strings inherent friction to hold the mic, instead of using a clip of some kind, is that they have to be too stiff, which goes against the isolation the suspension should provide. Perhaps buying some Rycote replacement mic holders and using more flexible strings would help filter camera handling and noises.

Only problem we've found is so far is out of 4 Z1s, two have had the Sony mic holder crack from the load, it's only plastic.


Yeah, doesn't it just look flimsy? The PD150 mic holder seemed much stronger to me. The Z1 holder looks like it would snap off easily.

I'd like to see your solution if you manage to get a photo up.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't seem to be able to post some pictures. Anyone interested in photos can contact me at johanlieve@hotmail.com. It is basically a solution for the diameter of the mic if you want to use the micholder as Sony intended it. For handling noise the other solutions posted here should work better because they use a more flexible suspension (If I understand Carlos well) and are farther away from the camera. The disadvantage is that they seem to put more strain on the micholder, are heavier and bigger. Until now the handling noise of my adapted micholder didn’t bother me, but my experience with isn’t that extensive.

Johan

Johan,

When you post, do you see a box called "Additional Options" below where you type? There's a button there called "Manage Attachments" which lets you upload photos.

You might have to be a member for a certain minimum time first, I'm not sure. I know it's that way before you can access the classifieds....

I can't find any 'manage attachment' button, so I suppose you're right. Maybe sometime soon.

As promised here are some photos of what I've done.
In the final assmebly I've chosen to use the spacers from the original Rode part. No need at all for these, I only had screws that were too long without them. Or maybe you think it silly to waste them so might as well put them to some use.
You don't need to buy the same Rode fitting either, any of the ones with the same suspension mount will do as you don't need the rest, so which ever one is the cheapest I'd go for that, we just happened to already have the SM5.

And yes I know there's a "n' missing from mounting :)

As promised here are some photos of what I've done.


And you don't get any motor or zoom or handling noises with the mic so close to the camera?

For handling noise the other solutions posted here should work better because they use a more flexible suspension (If I understand Carlos well) and are farther away from the camera. The disadvantage is that they seem to put more strain on the micholder, are heavier and bigger. Until now the handling noise of my adapted micholder didn’t bother me, but my experience with isn’t that extensive.

Well, maybe I didn't explain myself that well. Because what I say is that such mic suspensions as Rode's or PSC's, even if they are an improvement over simple mic holders, they do not filter mechanical noises as they should.

A car comparison comes to my mind: remember the Citroën 2CV? Remember how it floated slowly as it moved along and it was such a soft car to go in?

Well, a mic should do the same. It should float inside the suspension.

When they rubber string has to isolate and also grip the mic, instead of having a plastic or metal clip that grips the mic, it's doing two jobs, and it has to be a compromise. You can't adjust the string "floating" capability to the mic you are using, using softer strings, because the mic may slip away. As a result, IMHO, the mechanical isolation suffers.

Some mics, like the Oktavas MC02, are more sensitive to mechanical noises. Some are less sensitive. Usually the best mics are more sensitive, almost by definition.

Putting the mic further up front will put the mic away from the camera noises (whirring, zoom, etc.), but some mechanical handling noises will still be there.

About the camera noises, put your ear to the camera and listen: if you hear them, the mic also will.

And you don't get any motor or zoom or handling noises with the mic so close to the camera?

Not that we've noticed. In anycase if the mic were to pickup sound through the air I can't see how moving it a few inches away is going to help much. The problem seems to be more mechanical isolation from vibration coming through the camera body. Every camera has this issue, what seems to make the Z1 unique is it doesn't ship with a mic so everyone's buying shotguns or hypercardiods to use on it and these are heavier than the kind of mic Sony used to ship with most of their cameras. It's quite possible too that that cheap, plastic mic has more internal isolation than the 416 etc.

More to the point, any microphone mounted on a camera is a seriously compromised proposition anyway. The ideal solution is not to have the mic on the camera in the first place. If you were trying to record serious audio firstly you wouldn't be using the HDV audio tracks and secondly you'd have the mic off the camera and close to the sound source. In most situations where you're forced to use an on camera mic the ambient noise is going to be pretty significant anyway.

Not that we've noticed. In anycase if the mic were to pickup sound through the air I can't see how moving it a few inches away is going to help much.

Who's saying a few inches? The mic should be at least 10" away from the camera, up front or to the side.

The problem seems to be more mechanical isolation from vibration coming through the camera body. Every camera has this issue,

They certainly do. It will also depend on the level setting, what you are recording and where you are recording it.

The Z1 has a continuous noise that you can hear if you go close to the LCD screen.

what seems to make the Z1 unique is it doesn't ship with a mic so everyone's buying shotguns or hypercardiods to use on it and these are heavier than the kind of mic Sony used to ship with most of their cameras. It's quite possible too that that cheap, plastic mic has more internal isolation than the 416 etc.

True. The mic coming with the PDX10, which I also have, works fine with the Z1 and has some mechanical isolation. I also gripped an AKG Blue Line there, for ambience, and it worked fine. But for dialogue audio you have to go closer.

The support being plastic certainly doesn't help. The old support style, like on the PD170, PDX10 or V1, is much better.

More to the point, any microphone mounted on a camera is a seriously compromised proposition anyway. The ideal solution is not to have the mic on the camera in the first place. If you were trying to record serious audio firstly you wouldn't be using the HDV audio tracks and secondly you'd have the mic off the camera and close to the sound source. In most situations where you're forced to use an on camera mic the ambient noise is going to be pretty significant anyway.

Completely agreed. Only on subjects being very close to the camera (less than 2 feet) you can get away with it. But I still think you should go closer with the mic, using some stick or tube to get there.

I remember an article on American Cinematographer, many years ago, where they used a telescopic radio antena to go up front from the camera, with the directional mic head (probably a Schoeps) hanging at the tip. This is how it should be at least, and even so be critical on subject to mic distance.

Just one word of caution. The Z1 has a very wide lens and it's easy to get the on camera mic in shot. I've seen quite a bit of dead cat fur in the top of frame in Z1 footage. The viewfinder doesn't show you all the frame so you'll likely only find out in post.

Amen. I shot for a couple hours before reviewing my footage, and not being in all-scan...included some fur in the shot. Very disappointing. It could be cropped, but it shouldn't have been there.
Assign All scan to a button to occasionally see what's on the fringes of your shots.

Assign All scan to a button to occasionally see what's on the fringes of your shots.

Yes, I did that. But it didn't prevent from some case where the sunshade shows a little on the sides with the Century 0.6 WA. I should make it a routine which I haven't yet got to.

About the mic, I think it's better to put it to the side and not use the Z1's holder. Unfortunately the Bracket 1 is too short for the Z1.

Yes, I did that. But it didn't prevent from some case where the sunshade shows a little on the sides with the Century 0.6 WA. I should make it a routine which I haven't yet got to.

About the mic, I think it's better to put it to the side and not use the Z1's holder. Unfortunately the Bracket 1 is too short for the Z1.

We've managed to pickup a bracket thingy that goes from under the camera and then up around the side with reasonable clearance. If you really wanted to get the mic a good distance away from the camera plus mount a mic receiver or two this is ideal. Has a fitting to take a release plate on the bottom as well.
We don't use them much as they make the whole rig too big for our flight cases but for your own use they might be ideal. We've added a handle on the bottom so you've got a better grip. I'll try to remember to find out who makes them, not overly expensive either and you're not relying on anything on the camera to take the load.

We've managed to pickup a bracket thingy that goes from under the camera and then up around the side with reasonable clearance. If you really wanted to get the mic a good distance away from the camera plus mount a mic receiver or two this is ideal. Has a fitting to take a release plate on the bottom as well.
We don't use them much as they make the whole rig too big for our flight cases but for your own use they might be ideal. We've added a handle on the bottom so you've got a better grip. I'll try to remember to find out who makes them, not overly expensive either and you're not relying on anything on the camera to take the load.

Yes, finding a bracket that is not large is not easy. There was a time when there were a few, but now they seem to be gone.

What I will probably be doing is using my DIY figrig to hold stuff below the camera, and of course put a mic suspension on the upper side of the wheel.

As I will also be modifying my matte box, so the tubes go up to the back, it might be an idea to secure a flexible arm from it and hold the mic suspension at the end.

I just did a little experiment. I put a 416 microphone in my adapted micholder and recorded when I was rubbing the camera, pushing buttons, etc…. Then I put the same mic on a microphone stand in about the same position and distance from the camera, the only difference being that there was no contact between the mic and the cam (just air between) and recorded the same handling of the camera. I loaded the two files into my NLE and compared the audio. Well, there is certainly more noise with the mic in the micholder. But there is also some noise recorded when the mic isn’t touching the cam at all (especially the rubbing of the camera handle). This would be noise directly picked up by the mic. Doing this experiment should give you an indication how much noise is transmitted through the body of the camera. Actually I have learned that it is quit a lot. Make sure to have a firm grip of the camera when using the mic in an on camera micholder is the conclusion I made for myself. Thanks to you all I've learned a lesson. Luckily I used a boom in the short I just finished.

Johan

I just did a little experiment. I put a 416 microphone in my adapted micholder and recorded when I was rubbing the camera, pushing buttons, etc…. Then I put the same mic on a microphone stand in about the same position and distance from the camera, the only difference being that there was no contact between the mic and the cam (just air between) and recorded the same handling of the camera. I loaded the two files into my NLE and compared the audio. Well, there is certainly more noise with the mic in the micholder. But there is also some noise recorded when the mic isn’t touching the cam at all (especially the rubbing of the camera handle). This would be noise directly picked up by the mic. Doing this experiment should give you an indication how much noise is transmitted through the body of the camera. Actually I have learned that it is quit a lot. Make sure to have a firm grip of the camera when using the mic in an on camera micholder is the conclusion I made for myself. Thanks to you all I've learned a lesson. Luckily I used a boom in the short I just finished.


I would pick your last sentence as the most important fact to come out from this thread: no camera placement, isolated or whatever will ever replace a boom. Or even a lapel mic, wireless or not.

The camera handling noises shouldn't be present if the mic is not on the camera, except if you are using a very dead room or the mic level is very high. To make the test right you should have a person talking at normal voice and see how much noise you can pick.

If you still pick handling noises they might be because the mic is not isolating them through its directionality. But as I said, the mic should be at least 10" or more from the camera in order to be safe.

That doesn't mean that you can't record a situation with an on-camera mic, as long as the mic level setting is not too high and you are very careful with the camera handling. As you said you should have a firm grip and try not to move your fingers around.

But as I said, the mic should be at least 10" or more from the camera in order to be safe.


carlos, I think that my test has shown me that the kind of materials used are more important than mic to camera distance when dealing with handling noise. That's why I think, when it comes to handling noise Bob Grant's solution could really work because he uses a good suspension although it is close to the camera.

Johan

carlos, I think that my test has shown me that the kind of materials used are more important than mic to camera distance when dealing with handling noise. That's why I think, when it comes to handling noise Bob Grant's solution could really work because he uses a good suspension although it is close to the camera.


Great. Get back to us and tell us how did it go.

For the time being I will stick to my own solution, realizing now that for handling noise there are better ones available. Thanks for the answers and the time Carlos.

As promised here's a link to the bracket we've been using with all of our cameras when we need to add more bits than there's mounts for on the camera:

http://www.bracket1.com

Not exactly that cheap I guess but on the plus side you can fit your release plate to the bottom so it as easy as it get to go from tripod to hand held. Also there's plenty of space to mount lots of things on the side of the camera and enough clearance so you can still change tapes.

We've added a handle underneath at the front to the right to make it easier to hold, I guess there's a number of ways one could do this. The Bracket1 people have done all the hard work with the release plate mount etc.

The support being plastic certainly doesn't help. The old support style, like on the PD170, PDX10 or V1, is much better.


I've been following this thread eagerly because I've often worried about snapping the mic holder on my V1U because of the weight of my Rode NT3 inside the SM5 shockmount.

Have I understood correctly now that the mic mount on the Z1U is worse than the V1U? Have anyone had problems with the mic mounts snapping off the V1U?

And if the PD170 does have a stronger mic mount, has anyone tried to see if it is possible just to order that part and put it on the Z1U & V1U?

Also, thanks for the pictures for mounting the SM5 directly to the camera by removing the mic-holder altogether. That's a brilliant idea, Bob. I just wish I had the handyman skills to follow your instructions and pull it off. :)

I've been following this thread eagerly because I've often worried about snapping the mic holder on my V1U because of the weight of my Rode NT3 inside the SM5 shockmount.

Have I understood correctly now that the mic mount on the Z1U is worse than the V1U? Have anyone had problems with the mic mounts snapping off the V1U?

And if the PD170 does have a stronger mic mount, has anyone tried to see if it is possible just to order that part and put it on the Z1U & V1U?

Also, thanks for the pictures for mounting the SM5 directly to the camera by removing the mic-holder altogether. That's a brilliant idea, Bob. I just wish I had the handyman skills to follow your instructions and pull it off. :)

Haven't checked the mic mount on our V1P, we've only used the el cheapo Sony mic on that camera (it's the same one that comes with the PD170 setc). That's a pretty light mic so I doubt we'll have a problem.

Certainly the mic holder on the PD170 seems to be made of metal and the one on the Z1 is plastic. Where we struck a problem with the Z1 was using the SM5 Rode mount as it was originally intended. The metal tube gets clamped very tightly into the mic holder and it's heavy. Add in that the 416 etc are heavy mics and the additional turning moment it's no surprise that two of them had cracked. I doubt if the NT3 directly mounted in the original Z1 holder would cause you a problem though.
The other thing to watch out for is the two screws that hold the mic holder to the control console seem to work loose. If your mic feels floppy might pay to check if the screws are tight before the screws fall right out. Also the screws that hold the adaptor plate / additional shock mount can also work loose. Check all screws.

I would put the NT3 right into the mic-mount if I could, but it's far too large so I opted to go with the SM5 option. I don't know why I didn't just get an SM3 and use the cold shoe though, I'm not really using it for anything else. I'm also considering just replacing the NT3 with the AT4053a since that would fit in the mic-mount.

If the PD150 mic-mount is that great though, what about just buying the part and putting that on a Z1U... is that possible?

And if the PD150 uses the same mic-mount as the V1U then I must just be extra-paranoid about it breaking. The NT3 is a fairly heavy mic though, especially bundled with the SM5.

Keep it simple. Crumpled duct tape or chewin' gum does the trick.