my 0.02€: I think what we are seeing here is the combined effects of thermal currents and, as the main culprit, the MPEG compression combined with 1440/1920 pixel stretch.

When there is movement in every pixel between every frame of video, MPEG compression can not handle it. It has to record in bigger chunks and you get grainy picture, basically the resolution drops to half. Camera is not at fault, it is the HDV system which is not good enough. This is made worse by the fact that the picture is recalculated from 1440*1080 to 1920*1080 for display further making the horizontal (edit from "vertical", see below) resolution worse (than the native resolution of a HD display).

We have to remember that HDV is not a "real" HDTV system, it is a system that gives a fairly good approximation of HDTV at amazingly cheap price. We can not expect the impossible. For the impossible just invest 10x the money...

Run a test by recording also native SD of the same situation. If that footage is good, within the limitations of less resolution, then in MPEG did it.

my 0.02€: I think what we are seeing here is the combined effects of thermal currents and, as the main culprit, the MPEG compression combined with 1440/1920 pixel stretch.

I'd tend to agree that the effect is exaggerated by MPEG compression.

Petri, your explanation make perfect sense

This is made worse by the fact that the picture is recalculated from 1440*1080 to 1920*1080 for display further making the verical resolution worse (than the native resolution of a HD display).


Hi Petri. Sorry I got lost on this part, how is the vertical resolution affected by the 1440 non-square pixels being stretched to 1920 on the display? I thought the vertical resolution (1080) was unchanged. Or do you mean horizontal resolution?

Richard

Hi Bill I did do a test inside hooked up to my monitor and not running the tape. Same problem. Test was 4 meters away and the whole picture was moving. Also if I put the lens cap on the information on the screen was moving. This proved it was not the heat. All while locked on a tripod. To see my setting go to page one.

As for HDV limitation I agree we can not expect too much but the Sony Z1 never had this problem so that made me suspect the camera. And I hope Canon will resolve so I can at least get similar restults to the Z1 on the A1 which I know is possible.

I appreciate all the help and will post with the second new A1 and the serviced A1 when they arrive.

If its an HDV compression or pixel shift related issue (exacerbated by being at that end of the lens) then it would be a constant - Piotrs stable results at his second shoot of same location at full tele suggest it isnt.

Likewise switching to DV from HDV has no impact on the effect on my units. Nor does reframing the shot to cut out all movement from the trees.

If it was a thermals related issue (that does seem to have been involved in Piotrs initial shoot) then Id at least expect a change in the intensity of the effect depending on time of day/night the footage is being taken - whereas the issue on mine (unlike Piotrs) remains the same regardless.

Steven, if it is like you describe, then you're facing some problems with the camera; I hope Canon will fix it for all of you affected. Yes, I can confirm - when I first saw the shots I posted the 2 grabs from, I almost panicked, because the air movement was not visible to my eyes at all while shooting. I tried to recreate this phenomenon in other surroundings, as well as the original one but at different time on the day after - it's perfectly still and clean (I'm talking about the V1E, of course).

However, since as I said the heat wave was not visible to human eyes (at least I didn't notice it; I wasn't looking for it either), I think the comment above on the HDV compression pronouncing this effect might be quite valid. Human eye (or rather the brain) "knows" what we see looking far ahead is 3D space; to the camera's imagers it's just several kilometers deep amount of air, all compressed into a 2D scene; the probablility nothing moves in it is very small!

Hi Petri. Sorry I got lost on this part, how is the vertical resolution affected by the 1440 non-square pixels being stretched to 1920 on the display? I thought the vertical resolution (1080) was unchanged. Or do you mean horizontal resolution?

Richard

My mistake, horizontal resolution is ripped apart a bit like you say.

Well the new A1 arrived today and I went through the following test.

1. Side by side with HV-20 hooked up component to one monitor and A1 on the other with both on tripods. Not running tape just going through presets and added two presets. Zoomed to full even though they are different then 1/2 zoom then full wide all looking out the window with window open on a cool clear day. A1 same problem.

2. Inside test side by side no tape running both zoomed in on US map where each state is diffenent color 3 meters distance. A1 same problem.

3. Running tape out side with just A1 on tripod zoomed at 10 meter, 5 meter, then 1 meter. A1 looked very nice at 1, 5, but at 10 started to see noise/grain/movement.

4. Running tape went to previous locations that I shot with my other A1 which Canon agreed there is a problem. Not as bad as the camera I sent back but not even close to the Z1 crips picture. Over 10 meters the picture is not up to my standards.

All test were manual setting with OIS off, gain off, IAF off.

I am sending the second camera back tomorrow and will replace with ?? in the next few days. Sorry I did not have better news I was excited it would be resolved with the new camera. This is not how I planned on spending this week with two jobs now pushed off two weeks so I can resolve. My clients are asking for 30P which is why I sold the Z1 and went A1. Now I need to decide in the next day which direction to go.

Paul, for your reference, here is a link to a clip I shot with my V1E (zooming all the way from wide to tele; apologies for the ugly content- some "socialist reality" remnants here in Poland):

http://rapidshare.com/files/30129684/full_tele.m2t

Paul, I'm trying to help you (and potentially others) to assess the quality of a 20x zoom in those "affordable" camcorders. The previous clip is progressive (25PsF; please play it back without deinterlacing, or severe twittering will be visible - nothing to do with th original problem discussed here), now a link to another scene, this time interlaced:

http://rapidshare.com/files/30147153/tele2.m2t

(again apologies for the hand-held quality).

Piotr thanks for the downloads but the RapidShare system says I have reached my limit and will not let me download.

Piotr thanks for the downloads but the RapidShare system says I have reached my limit and will not let me download.

Paul, I guess you have to wait a couple of minutes - it usually works fine. Sorry the first clip is quite big:).

I have downloaded both but my editing system (avid Liquid) will not play the video only the audio. I have tried in 60i, 25fps, 24fps, non-interlaced, interlaced with no luck.
Do you have other options on sending?

Paul, try VLC media player. It's been mentioned many times on the forums here.

www.videolan.org

Bill

Paul, you don't need NLE - just use any software mpeg player (WMP if your're on Windows, or VLC). VLC is better, as it allows to switch deinterlace on or off (so does Nero Showtime, for instance).

Thanks Bill and Piotr I will now view the files once when I finish with a client in a hour.

I called Canon Service center and the tech will call me back this afternoon with a report. I explained the situation and they were very understanding. Is Canon always this easy to deal with I am very impressed? They told me to hold onto the second camera and feel they can resolve the problem.

I also have my computer guru coming this afternoon. We have another avenue where we think the problem my be happening (my monitor/video card).

Stay tuned and I really appreciate all the help. Where would we be with out DVinfo.net!

Piotr the second video looks crips but hard to tell with all the movement at full zoom but looks like there is not the same problem. But again hard to tell with the movement.

I will wait the 45 min they suggest I have to wait to do the big download.

Piotr your first clip on my 24 HD monitor is great colors. Not as bad with noise/grain as my Canon but I still see a bit at the second half of the zoom.

I think Jim and Petri both have good points. At 20 times there is a problem with heat/movement. And as Petri said I am expecting too much from this level of camera. I am lead at this time to think the Z1 produced a better picture with the Century optics 1.6 tele at full zoom then the A1 and V1 do at full zoom with out the attached lens. That is with Z1 in 60i and the A1 at 30F.

It will be interesting to hear what Canon has to say this afternoon.

Paul, you're right my clips use to fast zooming, but I wanted to show all the stages between full wide and full tele, while keeping the file size as low as possible. Especially the shorter clip; you should probably slow it down near the end to see that there's no wave-like movement at all. As far as the longer one is concerned, I don't notice it anywhere, either. But perhaps I need better eye-glasses?

Piotr you are correct I just looked at it again and maybe I can see 10% of what I am dealing with on both Canon A1 cameras.

I have talked with Canon once today and will call again now.

I am told by Canon after two checks that the camera is to spec. They will send the camera back to me so I have it on Thursday. I will run through test suggested by Canon.

On the video I had sent on a tape which was manual focus they said it was auto focus. I make mistakes but not for 15 minutes of 20 different clips where I checked before and during each clip. They did admit that there is noise and grain but said it is to spec. The clip with the boat off behind the salt marsh they said it was focus hunting. But it was on manual.

Where I stand now is I am sending the second camera back. I can always rebuy it if the problem is solved. Also I am thinking of purchasing a Sony V1 since with the rebate they are within $300 now. Then test the V1 side by side for two days at that point decide what to do.

I have put my Z1 footage on one 24" monitor and A1 on the other in similar clips and you can't compare. Now the HV-20 stands up to the Z1 footage in all the clips.

Enough for today time for a nice evening with my wife.

I`m curious about this problem being a prospective buyer of the A1. I have an H1 at work, and from what I`ve read its the same camera, just the lense is removable (and no jack pack). At full zoom I don`t have any issues, yet with slight movement you can see a "morphing" issue. 00:49 was at full zoom over the water on a 70 degree day. However at 1:00 you can see the tree branches 'morphing around....it was like that in the m2t as well. Any idea why I don`t see full zoom 'heat wave' like yours? And is the 'morphing' effect because of mpeg compression?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92992

I sometimes get the full-telephoto heat wave squirm effect also. I also get some weird focus pulse sometimes. (See previous thread http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=84919 )

But none are consistent or repeatable. I'm wondering if it's rf inteference or some other electronic thing. Happens in mf with ois off.

Chuck

Nathan,
The Iproblem I can’t resolve is the constant noise/grain. I get the problem at wide all the way through full zoom it is just more noticeable at full zoom. My computer says your file is corrupt (the Zipped big file) sorry I can't see what you are talking about at 49 sec. I did looke at the small file advertising the tape and that looked fine. I read in detail all of the H1 forum that I could and never heard of the problem. I have thought of going with a H1.

Chuck
The heat wave squirming effect is what I am calling noise/grain. Maybe I have the wrong term but I can’t get rid of it in any setting. Canon said this is not a problem and when the camera is doing this it is within spec. So when it gets back tomorrow I will do four full days of test shooting and see if I can resolve. Meantime the Sony V1 will be on order to fully compare.

The heat wave squirming effect is what I am calling noise/grain. Maybe I have the wrong term but I can’t get rid of it in any setting.

Now I'm totally confused & most likely I'll stay that way :D

The H1 is nice, but honestly its not so much a shoulder friendly camera as I hoped it might be which is another reason I`m looking at the A1. The H1 is about 10 pounds loaded and very front heavy. Everyone says the chips and lense are the same on both (though the obvious detachability on the H1) so I`m curious to see how your tests come out. Also, i downloaded my file and it worked fine :\ Not sure whats going on with that.

Bill,
Sorry I am not trying to confuse you. Please let me know how you are confused and I will try and be clearer.

Nathan,
Yea I don't want to add weight to my camera since I am in tight spots on the water. The A1, Z1, V1 size works for me up mast while sailing, moving on the deck in rough weather and down below. There are times in chase boats and helicopters that I could handle a bigger camera but that is only about 25% of my shooting. Sorry I was in a hurry this morning and will try the download again. I had three programs running on my laptop so it might have been the computer.

Nathan,

Yup it was my computer this morning no problem downloading this time.

Nice RI early spring scenes and both ducks bobbing at the same time is fun.

I could no problem at 49 sec.

Paul, I haven't been following this thread so I just kind of skimmed through it. I agree with others that some of what you are interpreting as a camera problem is actually atmospheric conditions. When you are zoomed at full you are actually magnifying heat shimmer and haze that is naturally in the air.

What I would suggest you do is take a set of binoculars to the same scene with you and look through them and see if you are observing the same kind of shimmer.

I have encountered this phenomenon many times while shooting outdoors but have never considered it a camera problem.

Without seeing full rez footage and seeing all the settings on your camera for myself, it's difficult to figure out exactly what is wrong.

Do you know anyone else that has any kind of digital video camera? Even a handycam would be useful to take with you to compare.

Thanks Steve for taking the time to answer my e-mail.

Good point with the binoculars my wife suggested that Monday and there was some heat rising but not as bad as the camera. So yes that is part of it at full zoom but not at full wide in my studio where there is a noise/grain problem

I will put full res on when I test again and detail of settings. When the camera arrives tomorrow I will take 4 full days of testing and document it all. This will all be done along side a Sony V1 and the HV-20.

I do take the HV-20 along and the footage is excellent with out the same problem.

Okay well I would suggest you do a scientific test. Set both cameras up at the same focal length and shoot the same scene. Keep both presets as flat as possible and as similar as possible and then post the two shots to the forum here.

Will do thank you!

its tough to see in the wmv as its super compressed, so I tossed the m2t up...zipped its still 70 megs...maybe its just my machine...not sure, but drop the file into an NLE if you have time and view it at 100% and you can see whole sections of the branches shifting around. IS was off and while the tripod was shaking in the wind, it couldn`t cause the morphing you can see (unless its just my computer seeing it)

http://www.kiukle.com/temp/morph.zip

I can see the camera is shaking a little bit from the tripod, but I don't see nothing wrong with that clip, for sure I don't see no morph, maybe you should have your eyes check. (-: or get another monitor.

Can't say I saw anything weird either...

I did more tests today on my A1 and made some very interesting observations.

At full zoom in bright sunlight I saw very obvious shimmering on an image at approx 100 meters. I was not running tape. The A1 was directly connected to my 32in HD 1080p monitor. Auto focus was off. While making some notes a cloud passed over placing the image in bright shade and all movement stopped! The image was rock steady! When the sun came back so did the shimmering. It wasn't the same movement you see from heat just movement of the whole image. I backed the zoom off to approx 80-85 percent and all movement went away again. Numerous image directly to the monitor in shade followed but still no movement.

I can only surmise that this was due to heat or due to to the specular nature of bright sunlight reflecting from the various objects in the picture. There did not seem to be any blocking in the image.

At this point I don't feel the problem is in the camera.

Jim, I agree with your observations.

Interesting find. I also notice that most CA occurs only in bright direct sunlight, perhaps they are related issues from the lense design?

As for my clip its odd because I see it on my monitor here and at home. I am very nitpicky about how everything looks as are many here so I`m shocked no one else is seeing it...am I losing my mind?

Awaiting Paul's finding as well

am I losing my mind?

I don't want to rule anything out yet












:)

My A1 has just arrived 4pm east coast time along with a V1. So I will shoot for the next three days to compare side by side. My first results will not be up until tomorrow late day or early Sat.

I had the opportunity to take 4 hours with the A1 today. I also ran the V1 but did not run tape in the V1 but did in the A1. I do not want to reduce the value of the V1 camera for the retailer if I return which I plan on doing.

Well the report from Canon which was in the box with the camera said they made sure the A1 was to spec. I don’t know if this means they made a change or if it was to spec when it arrived. I have not had a clear answer on this with Canon yet. My suspicion is they reset the camera to specs because it is different.

I will have time to post some clips late in the day tomorrow from what I shot today and what I will shoot tomorrow. Right now I am trying to keep a few clients happy in the spring boating rush.

Quick summary of today:
Both cameras hooked up by component each to a Dell 24” native resolution 1920 x 1200 with a window in my office open to out side and each on a tripod. The day was perfect sun and clouds so lots of changing and great spring colors. Setting the cameras very close to each other and 100% zooming in on the same item I found the Sony was noisy out of the box. So at this point I was more interested in resolving the Canon issue so the Sony sat in factory setting.

After all the constructive input in this forum, checking other post, and talking to close friends who shoot a lot I decided I was over exposing and closing the iris too much while shooting. So my goal was don’t close more then 5.6 at full zoom and stay open even more if possible. When zoomed wider not a problem just at 75% - 99% of max zoom it seems like a problem. This made a huge difference in clarity of the image no matter what the preset. So after finding this I ordered .6 and 1.2 HD-ND filters. Since I shoot in bright light and would rather use a ND filter on the front of the camera then the in camera ND to reduce the light and keep the noise to a minimum. Does this make sense? It seems to me at full zoom in bright light the ND’s on the camera help yes to reduce the light but also add noise which seem to contribute to the movement I was seeing. I can only see this while doing the changes monitoring on the 24” on the 2.5” I can not see the difference.

Next I found to keep the focus on MF all the time. Sure use IAF to get close but at that point go manual to fine tune and use magnification to get the first grab then dial in with MF. At full zoom the AF hunts too much for me. This makes me realize I need an on camera monitor. I have received great advice on this product and will purchase next week so focus will be much easier. Next in Custom Functions I adjusted the Focus Ring Control to slow, Focus Priority off, and Zoom Indicator to numbers. All of this helped in having better control of fast MF.

At this point you are saying what about the grainy/noise/movement I was complaining about. Well it was not a problem with the custom presets one Steve’s Vivid and a new one I am working on for bright conditions on the water with fast action (I will post when I am happy with the results and done testing) plus all the camera presets. But on the factory setting with preset off it is too soft and it seems to have minor grain and noise at full zoom. But as I said in the second paragraph the camera seems much better and I am getting different results then prior to sending the camera to Canon. Is this due to my new setting some what but not only, I think they reset the factory settings. And by the way Canon FedEx overnight back to me very nice!

So am I happy with my first 4 hr test. Yes this camera gives me more control then I ever thought possible in a HDV camera. Do I miss my Z1 not now, but the Z1 is an excellent camera I have just changed my path. Now it is time to refine my finding and do some structured test out side the office and post some results. It sure would be nice to bring the 24” monitor on the road but I guess a 7” will be just fine.

More soon and if you are considering a A1 buy it!

Reading my last post I meant to much ND and iris too closed not over exposed.

This is a hand held clip with my DvMulti rig which I use a lot. Not the best content but shows how much better on first try the camera is at full zoom and a range of focus.
30F
3.4 iris
60 shutter
1 camera ND
Gain off
Manual focus from 10 meters to infinity
IAF off
Focus priority off
Vivid preset
Custom Function with focus ring at slow

Sorry for the late post I have been overloaded. And Chris I did not look to see the .wmv file size.
I have been trying to do too many things at once this weeked.

More clips coming this week if any one is interested?

I had to re-enter the time zone, date, and time in the camera when it came back from Canon. Does this happen on a reboot? I know on reset all it does not happen.

Three frame grabs from a shoot last night with the A1.

I can not seem to solve the aspect ratio problem with frame grabs from Avid Liquid. They are in the right aspect ratio and size in Liquid but when I switch them to any other software they are squeezed. This happens even though they are the correct size. Thoughts?

Also I can not seem to upload .bmp files so I switch to .jpg. Both are with in the size requirements but maybe this is related to the Liquid problem.

It was a wild evening with the colors and haze.

30F
60 shutter
Iris 3.4 - 6.7
Formatt 1.2 ND filter
All are very close to full zoom
Two are auto focus and one is manual
Vivid preset except the dark is my preset

Regarding aspect ratio:

Open up stills in Photoshop
From top menu, go to IMAGE->IMAGE SIZE
Uncheck CONSTRAIN PROPORTIONS
Enter "1920" in the WIDTH box
Resave image

The original still is an anamorphic image that gets unsqueezed on your TV screen and your pixel aspect ratio is 1.33. When you resize in Photoshop you are creating a square pixel image that is non-anamorphic and can be viewed with the proper proportions.

so have you solved your 'wavy' issues? Was the solution canon tweaking it? Or your new knowledge of tweaking other stuff in camera? My A1 comes in today, guess I`ll have to test stuff like this very early on.

Thanks Steve I will do that and repost the pictures.

Nathan,
I think Canon did a change in the camera. As I said in a post above the camera had a reboot due to time zone, date, and time needing to be reset. Right out of the box it shot differently with more control over the image. Thank You Canon!

For me to go out and shoot the same settings in the same location yes it is not the same day but I do not seem to have the problem. Now I am just concentrating on tuning my skills for the years to come.

Formatt 1.2 ND filter
t
Where you using a polarizer whem you had the original problem?

The reason I ask is because I have a Cavision 4x4 polarizer that you can't zoom through without getting double images.

Doug I was not using a polarizer but will keep a look out for the same problem since I do use one at times. I just started using the .6 and 1.2 ND's on the A1.

Here are the three pics and proper aspect ratio thanks to Steve. I do still have to change to .jpg over .bmp since .bmp fails to upload.

This camera's settings as it comes from the factory the black are so stretched.
Here is a manipulated image.