I use cinform with my HV20 24p footage. It does the pulldown removal flawlessly. The only problem I'm having is AVIs rendered using Vegas 7e and cineform's codec at 1440X1080p 24FPS will not play on other machines besides the one that creates it. I did see a new Neo player on Cineform's site, that I assume downloads and registers their latest codec on any PC, that should probably fix it it. I can not play the AVIs created with cinform's codec to play on the Nero or DIVX player. The other issue I'm having is with aspect ratio, seems after rendering the aspect ratio changes back to 4:3, this can be fixed on the player but I should be able to render it correctly.

I'm contributing my effort to talk about this in my monthly column on VideoAlpha magaizen about the flag. It is the only pro video magazine in Japan, so it should be pretty influential.

If you install one of Cineform's demo products, then uninstall it, it gives you the option of leaving behind the free decoder dll ... thereby enabling cineform .avi playback on the machine. See www.cineform.com for more info...

Hi Chris. Just wondering, do you use cineform? I do. Is there any reason not to? Thanks - PK

I do not. I am editing "native" HDV. If I was getting into heavy HD production, I would certainly want to, but at this moment, no.

I'm contributing my effort to talk about this in my monthly column on VideoAlpha magaizen about the flag. It is the only pro video magazine in Japan, so it should be pretty influential.

Excellent Kaku. Thank you. Ideally I think we want to get the issue in front of the Canon camcorder engineering group in Japan since I assume they're the ones who would implement a fix.

I'm beginning phase two of the assault: I contacted my guy at the Irvine, Calif. Canon service center today by email about the issue. Don't know if he's a camcorder guy or not but he cut through a bunch of red tape for us on the still camera lens issue last year. So I'll let you guys know his response.

I think Canon should do free exchange for PAL versions to anybody who ask for it. They just did not deliver the advertised and in manual documented feature in NTSC version IMO. This whole issue is hard for me to understand and really is on the same level as the latest JVC's new cam disappointment. There is no reasons to own this cam today... :(

Sent mine in.

I think Canon should do free exchange for PAL versions to anybody who ask for it. They just did not deliver the advertised and in manual documented feature in NTSC version IMO. This whole issue is hard for me to understand and really is on the same level as the latest JVC's new cam disappointment. There is no reasons to own this cam today... :(

Don't agree with this. While I want the ability to edit 24p simply, there is a lot more to this package than you give credit for. Even without the edit capablity, the 24p is enveloped in a 60i wrapper. We are just looking to clean up potential issues with this request. What would most of us do with PAL....

I got my reply.

Personally, I urge that new HV20 owners continue to write in - one day Sony or another brand will offer variable frame rates in sub-$1300 camera's, so, it's only a matter of time. Maybe 1 year, maybe 5, but it'll occur.

It was certainly a copied-pasted reply for the most part.

Don't agree with this. While I want the ability to edit 24p simply, there is a lot more to this package than you give credit for. Even without the edit capablity, the 24p is enveloped in a 60i wrapper. We are just looking to clean up potential issues with this request. What would most of us do with PAL....

I am sorry, I do not own this cam and I am not as deep familiar with this "package" as the owners are. This cam is on my number one purchase list but....

It is unacceptable to produce a product that you can't use straight out of the box! If canon packs a video media player that does removes the pulldown whit a replacement for Vegas in the package then I own apology to canon.

Otherwise I call this deceptive advertising and I am sure as in other cases this can be a nice legal battle.

I understand the pressure of the companies to come to market quick with new products but lack of tools to utilize these products, especially the strongest selling point 24p, and the main reasons why folks here purchase this product should not be tolerated.

I am convinced what many reading this forum would not purchase the product but instead waited out for a real solution or new cam the same way I do it now.

I hope the moderator would post a sticky with warning: Special 3rd party tools needed to view and edit 24p of HV20.

The most efficient pressure for canon to fix the mess is to just not purchase the cam.

Please do not take this personally as it is not intended but because you have purchased the cam and are happy with it; it doesn't meant that others would be too.

What would most of us do with PAL? Enjoy trouble free 25p out of the box.

Cineform seems to be a good product.
>> snip

The primary negatives with Cineform are 1) price - another $250 on top of my editing software/camera costs and 2)
>>>snip

.

Hi Peter

I believe the price for Cineform Aspect HD is $500. :-(
http://www.cineform.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=85

I was hoping (with my new uber computer) that I wouldn't have to purchase Cineform HD. With this Canon 24P pulldown "issue" though........ ???? ........ perhaps I'll have too. :-(

Thanks to the OP for starting this thread
JohnG

Canon shouldn't be calling it "24p Cinema Mode" if they refuse to flag the footage as 24p.

They say "Only Canon's XL series models would have the
ability to adjust this setting"

It's NOT a setting. It's just the standard way to flag a "24p in 60i" stream so the NLE can display TRUE 24p. Nobody is asking for 24p Advanced or anything along those lines...

It's a pain without pulldown flags. You need a lot of space and extra processing time to work around it. I'm looking for free workarounds in the interim but they're not perfect ... struggling with audio sync issues right now.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92893


Peter,

So what's the next phase on this endeavor? Just keep at it?

John,

Why don't you give them a call and let them tell you how to utilize the features described in the manual and see what they have to say to you.

I am not the expert but I think you can edit 25p (PAL) with cheap Vegas and view the clips straight from the cam progressively. If all you care is HD (quite frankly who would care for PAL/NTSC SD with this cam) ask them for a replacement for PAL version.

If they get you trouble open a case with bbb.org as the first step. If enough people complain they will get it fix sooner.

I don't see why one should spent another $500 on NLE or use some hacks and cracks!

Mike,

Return the cam...


Also, I would suggest that you contact the authors of cam web reviews to clarify the issues with NTSC cams. These reviews drive canon sales...this give you more visibility then just emailing canon.

As a Mac User, free or simple work a rounds are proving difficult - it's my area of least experience. I have G Film by Nattress, but it's done nothing good for me when used as a deinterlacer/cadence changer - I simply don't know how to setup the cadence properly I assume, or choose the fields to 'blend', etc.

I'd use Neo/Cineform, if it actually existed for the Mac OS. The Beta hasn't worked for me - just a white screen! Steve Szudzik said his Windows version also didn't work.

Anyhow, got a reply from the e-mail I sent as well.

Hi Peter

I believe the price for Cineform Aspect HD is $500. :-(
http://www.cineform.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=85

I was hoping (with my new uber computer) that I wouldn't have to purchase Cineform HD. With this Canon 24P pulldown "issue" though........ ???? ........ perhaps I'll have too. :-(

Thanks to the OP for starting this thread
JohnG

I think their Connect HD (now NEO?) is what we need for Vegas users. It was $250 last time I checked. Premiere users need Aspect I think? (Could have it wrong...) Either way, not to knock Cineform as they are deserving of praise, Canon could resolve this pretty easily by including the flags.

So what's the next phase on this endeavor? Just keep at it?

Well I think we don't take "No" for an answer on this. With all due respect to the Canon tech support folks, right now we're getting canned responses from people who are mostly likely trained to respond to simple questions from folks who have no idea what 24p is. The idea is to move the issue up the foodchain inside Canon to get to the engineers/high level techs who understand the issue and most importantly, can implement change. It's not like we're asking them to include 24p recording in their camera - they've already done the hard part. All we're asking is to have the flags included. Of course I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing they omitted them thinking there'd be a lack of demand. But regardless of the reason, our job now is to make our position known.

So... I think calling is next. Here are some suggestions:

A. If we call their regular Customer Service number, the only goal is to get to the issue passed on to a higher up. The person you speak to is not going to be able to "resolve" the issue. But that's OK since 1) if enough of us call, they'll have to start paying attention and 2) they will email you a customer service survey after the call where you can highlight the issue again. Even better however is if we can get the phone number or email address of someone higher up in the organization who can deal with the issue. So ask your customer service rep for that info.

The toll free customer service number in the US is 1-800-828-4040. For those outside the US check the back of your owner's manual.

B. Call Canon headquarters directly. Their US headquarters is on Long Island (Lake Success, NY) The number is 516-328-500 (use those cell phone long distance minutes you've been saving up!) Here are the other contact numbers: http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedata/AboutCanon/ciwofloc.html
They're going to tell you to call Customer Service. Tell them you've already tried that and now want to move the issue up within the organization. Persistence (and politeness) will pay off heavily here.

C. Call the Canon Service Centers (again, use those cell phone minutes) Irvine California - 949-753-4200; There's also a Research/Development facility in Irvine. That number is 949-932-3100.
I haven't been able to locate any other service center phone numbers on-line so ask the Customer Service reps for your local facility and call them too!

It's gonna take a little bit of effort but as long as we don't take "no" for answer, I believe we can do it.

Edit: here's a number to try for the Chicago Canon Service Center: 630-250-6200

Japan: (you're NTSC too right?) http://www.canon.com/about/group/list.html (This link actually has a lot of contact information - even with directions and maps if you want to present your case in person!)

I think this is starting to get a little out of hand.

There is nothing wrong with the HV20. It does exactly what is is designed to do which is to shoot video that looks like 24p material with 3:2 pulldown. No matter how anybody wants to look at it it is still clocking at 24 fps and recording that to tape. This is why the camera is a 24p camera. It does in fact shoot real 24p frames. I is the recording that causes a problem for some people.

I agree it would have been nice to have some kind of pull down flags but alas we do not have it and that is not a defect but just the way it is.

As much as people do not like it it works exactly as Canon intended for it to work. I like to think of it as more of an enhanced effect in a consumer camera kind of like Black and white or sepia.

Some other consumer HDV cameras such as the SONY ones also give us a fake cinema mode which uses cherry picked fields to create a jerky 24p. This is then placed in the same style of 3:2 pulldown 60i stream as the Canon. At least the HV20 gives us true clocked 24 fps frames.

This is a consumer camera. You can either use it to shoot 60i video or video that has a film like motion look to it which just so happens to look exactly like true 24p material. If you want to edit the true 24p frames then you need to find a solution to work with the material in a way that it wasn't really designed to be worked with. It isn't much different then somebody buying a special tool such as DV Film Maker to turn 60i HDV into 24p material. In the case of the HV20 at least we finally have a camera that gets us to the point of proper clocked framerates. Now all we have to do is use a simple tool to remove the pulldown which is much much easier then trying to convert 60i to 24p.

When 24p DV first came out many people had the same problem. In fact at that time a lot of people just edited the material as the 60i DV stream since many people didn't have a tool to work with the 24p. Eventually more NLE's supported removing the pulldown but even today many years after 24p DV first came out there are still some major NLE's that do not remove the 24p pulldown in DV material.

It was Canon's choice not to add pulldown flags and that of course is their choice to make. It is in no way fair to say the camera isn't 24p because that is exactly what it is doing.

I should also point out that those of us who have been using component, SDI or HDMI to capture uncompressed material have been dealing with this for years. Even the Canon XLH1 when capturing live from the SDI ports ends up sending out the 24p as 60i with 3:2 pulldown. That means we have to use a 3rd party solution to remove the pulldown or capture via a Cineform product which works with Blackmagic and AJA cards. So for me at least the lack of flags in the HDV tape stream is of little concern.

Folks, please don't post the contents of private email to this site.

Email is the copyright of the sender, not the receiver. It's not kosher to post email in public.

I'm about to go through this thread and remove anything that directly quotes an email.

If you want to convey a message that you received via email, a summation will do nicely.

Thanks in advance,

But if they can provide flags with the A1 model, why not do the same for this camera?

Seriously, you guys are getting so upset about what? I can't speak for all of you, but it sounds like some of you need to try a Mac with Final Cut Studio. It is soooooo easy to convert the captured 1080/60i HDV footage to true 24p with Cinema tools. Only takes a minute or two per clip. And the results are what you would expect.. 24 truly progressive frames. It's not Canon's problem. They are selling this thing for 1 grand! I am truly grateful to Canon for offering this amazing quality at such a low price.

Only takes a minute or two per clip.
That can add up quickly though, and the fact that it could be something as simple as a firmware upgrade to add those flags is something worth asking about.

Yeah....But no one here really knows how much it would take to add flags to the HV20. This whole Canon Bashing thread is based on the assumption that it is easy as pie to add this feature. I still have to say that for around $1000, Canon has done no injustice, and it is unfair to Canon to expect to have all of the features of a $4000 camera for $1000. No camera will ever be perfect. There will always be something. I say be happy because you have an awesome camera.

Oh I'm happy with the camera, but I could be made happier! :P

I'm sure we all could in some way!!!! ;)

You know..those of you on both sides of the coin have valid points. But in regards to advertising this product with 24p AND the demonstration video on their site that clearly lacks the visible pulldown wouldn't you say there seems to be some ..and I say "just some".. misleading going on here. Me as a potential consumer (I have one by the way) would be enticed by not only the claim of 24P...but also with the noted results that I viewed on their own Web site. That sold me. When I receive the camera and try it out for myself...my goal is to acheive the same results as their sample video. When I realize the footage I shoot does not do this...I have a right to get a refund for it not doing what I expected....right???

Before you answer me...or throw stones (be kind)...just look at what the PAL users are going through (at least some of them). There are those who sent their machines back in because of what they thought to be defective cams. They have that right to do that. My problem with this whole thing is the advertisment with the example video. One is lead to believe that "Out-of-the-Box" their footage can look just like Canon's online 24p demo. I personally don't think people are bashing Canon. It might have been an oversight on Canon's part to not add flags or they might have done it purposely (who knows). People should have the right to complain. If complaining changes things then more power to the people...if not....then so be it.

Don't get me wrong...I'm happy with my HV20...you can't snatch it out of my hands..but situations like what people here are trying to accomplish is the reason customer service exists in the first place. Contact them and let them know your dissatisfaction whether it be for missing flags, wobbly video, no black casing, funky form, no kitchen sink, inability to make you "director of the year"...yada...yada...yada...

I think part of the reason we're all passionate about a solution to this situation is because the camera is so good at what it does. If the picture was iffy, or the handling not so great, it might be a moot point that only a few would pursue. I do agree with you completely on the marketing of the 24p material from Canon. Only filmmaker types are going to use and understand why 24p is so great, and Canon I feel knows this.

This is my first foray into Canon land. As some of you may recall, I posted about my experience early on as a Sony user coming in. I did not know we had issues with true 24p until I tried to render a true 24p 1080i field. Til then, I had been viewing everything I shot in 24p inside the 1080i stream. Yes it works, and no, I am not dissatisfied in general.

However, I would like Canon to consider the "fix", if it is merely an upgrade to the firmware. The camera has the capability to be updated in that manner, so I am hopeful they will consider it.

We will eventually find work arounds, maybe someone working with HDVSplit will comeup with a fix, but point is it would be good customer relations if Canon stepped up, if it is easily doable. And, $ 250 for NEO by Cineform isn't a killer either, if that is the way we go. If it is not a possibility, Canon, just let us know--- someone out there in Canon land. Maybe in its current configuration, it can't add the flags, no matter what we do in firmware.

Ian, I understand and greatly respect your point of view. But, in my humble opinion, I do not believe that canon was suggesting that you could get that video right out of the box. They obviously edited it, which requires software that is not in the box. I'm not trying to be mean, I just feel that someone on this thread should stick up for canon.

Certainly wasn't my intention to bash Canon. Sorry if it came across that way. Let me be really, really clear: the HV20 is a great camera. Period. I appreciate Canon's engineering/production efforts. And I don't think it's out of line to let Canon know that there's room for a tweak since many of us find the 24p feature to be an important one. Like I said, I see no reason to ask for what may only amount to a firmware update. It's not like we're asking them to include 24p - it's already there. But it doesn't do us much good if we can't see it via software.

Canon is a huge company and an industry leader. I suspect they'll welcome our input. Imagine how many HV20's this forum alone has sold for them. If Chris only knew... :-)

Canon should pay Hurd commission. Agreed - love my HV20, no other sub $4000 CDN camera I'd prefer to own.

Ian, I understand and greatly respect your point of view. But, in my humble opinion, I do not believe that canon was suggesting that you could get that video right out of the box. They obviously edited it, which requires software that is not in the box. I'm not trying to be mean, I just feel that someone on this thread should stick up for canon.Thanks for your feedback Stefan. You could be right in what you are saying...I don't kow. I guess it all depends on how you look at it (glass half empty or glass half full). I tend to be optomistic (not saying that you are not). This efort might or might not go anywhere...but...one thing i would like to ask Canon..is how they were able to remove pulldown in their demonstration video. Maybe we could all adopt that method...though..Cineform is a great option.

......... Imagine how many HV20's this forum alone has sold for them. If Chris only knew... :-)Agreed....and to add to this...being the big hit that it is...imagine how much more they could sell for such a seemingly small fix...

Hmmm. Wonder why there were 4k hits on this thread at this point.... someone seems interested.....

Well of course everybody would like for this to happen. I'm not sure if it will or if we really have a stance. I mean I can come up with a whole list of things I think could have been done on this camera as well as every other camera on the market. There is no such thing as a perfect camera and everybody just needs to deal with that fact and work with what they got.

The camera is a 24p camera so Canon has every right to say it is 24p. Having to use special tools to remove the pulldown is no different then Canon not saying you have to use HDV capable software to edit video from the HV20 or how you may need a dual cpu system to edit HDV at a decent speed level. I mean somebody could be using an older Pentium 4 computer and buy the camera and they would not have very much luck editing the footage very well.

Canon gives us the starting point for 24p material and it is up to us to decide how we want to use it.



As for "just adding flags" it is much much harder then that. flags are a part of a mpeg2 encoder. Some encoder chips (chances are the one in the HV20) don't know how to encode a mpeg2 stream with pulldown flags. The mpeg2 encoder in a camera is a chip and not a software encoder. Naturally a simple interlaced mpeg2 encoder is much cheaper to use in a consumer camera. In order for the HV20 to add mpeg2 flags a whole new mpeg2 encoder chip which can deal with 24p and repeat field flags would have to be changed in the camera. This is not going to be a firmware upgrade if the encoder doesn't even know what flags are. I mean there is the very small chance that the encoder has everything built in and Canon only turned off the flags but I highly doubt it. This is a subject nobody on this forum would ever know so there is little point talking about exactly what features are on the encoder chip itself.

Agreed....and to add to this...being the big hit that it is...imagine how much more they could sell for such a seemingly small fix...

This is not a fix but a after market feature request. The camera is not broken and it works exactly like it was designed to work.

Hi Everyone,

Respectfully, this fix we want is no tweak or feature request. It's necessary to get proper use of a prime feature of this camera! People are buying the HV20 in significant part because of the 24p mode, especially because it takes such good video in lower light.

Canon will be most motivated to fix this flaw if people are being told in advance of buying the HV20 that they should think twice. Because they will not be able to use the 24p mode and have it look right without jumping through some expensive or time-consuming hoops.

We shouldn't worry about being hot on this camera. Of course it takes great pictures. But it is - we must admit - currently crippled in this area. It takes nothing away from our purchases to tell others about this serious flaw.

When websites start telling people to reconsider buying the HV20 until Canon issues a firmware update enabling full and proper use of the 24p mode, Canon will have the best incentive to do so.

Thomas,

That's a good point. While researching pulldown I read something similar in the way MPEG decoder chips are done for DVD players which result in combing/interlace/chroma artifacts. Still, if it is possible, and we can't be sure it's not we would like to see flags inserted into the stream somehow.

How bout a free capture utility that does it, Canon ??

For me personally if Canon issues a statement saying flags are dependent on the encoder chip and can't be added without updating that chip, I can live with that. I wouldn't demand a refund or recall of the HV20. I'll move on and use one of the software solutions to do pulldown removal. (Though I'd hope they would include that updated chip in future models.)

But... we won't know for sure until they know some of us are concerned. So I for one will make the necessary calls.

This is not a fix but a after market feature request. The camera is not broken and it works exactly like it was designed to work.
I concede. "If it ain't broke don't fix it."

hv10 deinterlance footage
4:2:2 conversion
film gamma

http://jya.jp/jt/tmp//1178759146.wmv

I stand firm in my position that this is NOT a big deal. So what if canon engineered this camera so that it takes 1 extra step (a very simple step IMO) to get the true 24p. I am glad to see that Ian G. came around to agree that this camera "ain't broke, so don't fix it." I don't get it. What's so hard about doing reverse telecine instead of 2:3 pulldown removal??? What? You say your software doesn't do reverse telecine. Maybe it's your software you should be trying to change. Not your camera. The software package I owned had no problem doing what needed to be done simply, and quickly, with the HV20 right out of the box.

I have a macbook pro. I have the canon hv 20. I will shoot in 24p very soon. What software exactly do I need. I'll purchase either final cut pro or final cut express. I need step by step being a new person to this whole 24p capture, etc. etc. To the pros out there, it's a no brainer apparently. Yet for me and many others like me interested in using this new camcorder as well as the proper software, we need a little more hand holding and less assuming we have the experience of what to do. So a step by step procedure would be most welcome.

i.e. step one, capture footage using this software with these settings. step two, use the following setting and then export using the following settings. step three, using nle software, import using the following settings. when done editing, export using the following settings. If exporting hd, use this setting, if exporting to dvd use this setting, if exporting to blueray use this setting, etc.

Now that would be helpful. In fact, the person would get quite a following who offers that type of specific advice. The question is, who will provide this information.

Thanks in advance to whomever answers the call. Your name will live in glory to all those who stood on your shoulders to take the next step.

so that it takes 1 extra step (a very simple step IMO) to get the true 24p.
Please describe your "very simple step", because from the numerous posts I've read, and the experimentation I've done, it's not that easy, especially since it requires you to duplicate all your footage. Maybe I'm missing something through...

Please describe your "very simple step", because from the numerous posts I've read, and the experimentation I've done, it's not that easy, especially since it requires you to duplicate all your footage. Maybe I'm missing something through...

Windows: Capture direct from camera with Connect HD.
Mac: Capture direct from camera to AIC Codec. Reverse telecine with Cinema Tools

So technically, it's only one step with windows, two steps with the FCP / Cinema Tools workflow. With Cinema tools you have to remove pulldown manually, and set the start frame.

I use Final Cut Pro and Cinema Tools to get the job done. Cinema Tools comes with the Final Cut Studio Package.

Step 1. Open Final Cut Pro, Close any projects that might be open, go to Final Cut Pro>Easy Setup. Choose HDV 1080/60i.

Step 2. Go to Final Cut Pro>Audio/Video Settings, and under Capture Preset choose HDV Apple Intermediate Codec -- (Very Important!)

Step 3. Open a new project (unless one opened automatically), Open Log and Capture, and Capture footage just as you would normal dv footage.

Step 4. Save your project!!!!! Close Final Cut.

Step 5. Now here is the extra step that people are complaining about. Instead of removing pulldown in final cut, you have to do it in Cinema Tools....It really is easy once you know how to do it. (takes a while to explain, but is quick when you do it)

First, each clip you capture must begin with the first progressive frame in the sequence of three.....Sounds complicated? it's not really. Because of the HDV Standard, clips are captured in a sequence of 2 interlaced frames, then 3 progressive frames, then 2 interlaced, then 3 progressive, and so on.... I've seen it like this- iipppiipppiipppiippp - you must trim your clip so that it begins on the first progressive frame in the sequence of 3. Easily done by going to your capture scratch and opening you clips in quicktime. use the arrow keys to advance frames one by one. It is pretty easy to tell which frames are progressive, and which are interlaced. command-x removes the current frame. Once you have it to where the first three frames of the clip are progressive, save and close quicktime. Then Open Cinema Tools and click cancel when it asks to open a database. Go to File>Open, choose your clip. Now click Reverse Telecine, the button on the right side of the viewer. Set it to 23.98 frames per second, and click DD at the bottom. Click ok and save it. Once it's done. You've got true 24p. Import the clips into a Final Cut project, Got to Sequence>Settings, and Change the Timeline to 23.98 FPS. Now you can edit in 24p. I haven't really messed around with the export settings, but I'm sure it would be easy to figure out.
I know that it seems like a lot to do this, but you'll see that once you try it, it really is a very simple and quick process, and Totally worth it to get the quality. It's not really worth complaining over, especially because of the price and features of this camera.

I stand firm in my position that this is NOT a big deal.

Well, it's always impressive to stand firm, but it's not a qualification for being right, just the appearance of it. People who bluff do it all the time.

If you say it's not a pain to go through these extra steps when Canon could have added flags then you're not being forthright, it is a pain. In the patuskie. Time is valuable, and the necessity of spending my time doing these extra steps, taking up valuable space in my hard drive is a temporal and physical waste and a mental drag.

Canon could easily have added the flags but they didn't, just like they didn't have a mic input in the HV10. Who's taking bets the HV30 has flags?

It's probably not an engineering problem, it's a suit-n-tie problem, someone's decided on the way to maximize cashflow.

Elmer Lang

You say "Canon could have easily added flags", but honestly, how do you know that?? Apparently you are an expert engineer in digital video and optics.....Either that, or you assume that just because it is in the high end Canon's, it is easy and should be in this camera also........Either way....It doesn't really matter. There's no point arguing who is right and who is wrong.

The fact is, if you want 24p with the HV20, you have to reverse telecine....If your editing time = money, then you are considered professional. And if you are professional, why are you using a consumer grade camera? This is a Non-issue for me, as I am extremely grateful to be able to even afford the chance to work with true 24p.

Hey mac guys who are having reverse telecine issues:
this thread here gave me a nice workflow:
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92629
Yes it involves duplicating your footage, but it's a one-time thing (from HDV->Photo-JPEG). Besides, cutting in native HDV just yields nasty generational issues.