I was only able to attend NAB on the last day, but I was able to make it over to the JVC booth and of course asked one of the reps about the dropout when digitizing to FCP issue. To my surprise he said, "We just announced an update today that you can download that fixes that issue." He was in fact very happy about the ennouncement as he said he finally had an answer to give people asking that question.

I have been traveling since NAB and haven't had a chance to look, but now that I'm back I see nothing about it on the JVC site or here. Was I just dreaming? He had told me it would take a week or two to get the patch up, but I don't even see an announcement about it. Did anyone else hear about this?

Burt Holland
Encyclomedia
Atlanta, GA

That's news to me...

I spoke directly to the Apple guy about it and as far as I can tell the only newsworthy announcement was 720P60 native support in a "future" version of FCP6. This means that the version to ship in FCS2 might not have the 720P60 support, and no one knows when that patch will be released.

There are a couple problems associated with ingesting natively in FCP successfully from tape in 720P24. The most obvious is the fragmented files FCP creates. The reason it affects FCP and not other NLEs is Apple's zero tolerance for any missing data in the mpeg2 stream. They seem to be demuxing the stream in ingest and re-writing the audio to 16bit 48Khz (as far as I can tell) and removing the pulldown frames. Any interruptions detected are immediately flagged as 'breaks' and the file is cut off and a new one begins (that's when the 5-6 second gap happens.) This process in itself suggests that very fast hard drives and fast processors will perform better (shorter gaps) than slower G4 or G5s. I use a Macbook Pro 2Ghz with 2BG of RAM without issue.
However, I become more and more convinced everyday that the faulty data streams are primarily caused by using non-recommended tape stock and not cleaning the heads on a regular basis. I ran into a few people at the booth who wanted to specifically tell me that they don't have the problem and capture long clips all the time. I asked these shooters what stock they used and I believe they all said the ProHD tape stock.
I spoke to about 9 or 10 people over the course of 4 days who do have problems capturing. Most of these people told me they use Panasonic MQ tape...some said Sony, but I'm not sure which flavour.

The rough statistics seem to support my theory.... but where's the proof?
I've decided I'm going to have to conduct a formal comparison. I just have to decide which camera to sacrifice and do it at a time when I have no critical work on the table.

In the meantime, I'd like you to ponder this:
Why would JVC go to the bother of creating a brand new tape stock specifically just for this camera system if it wasn't necessary? I truly believe they realized a very stable tape stock was going to be necessary for HDV, and went to the trouble for that reason.

I urge anyone with these problems who has been using Panasonic MQ to buy a head cleaning cassette, run a few cycles, and then start using JVC ProHD stock. Please let us know if it works any better on ingest.

I talked to [a JVC rep in the booth] and he told me there was a new update coming out in a few weeks that fixed the fcp problem.

I get really bad fragmented capture. I am not sure what causes it but when I recapture, the breaks happen at different places which leads me to believe that it is a much broader problem than using the wrong tape stock or dirty heads.

There are a couple problems associated with capturing in FCP successfully from HDV tape in 720P24. The most obvious is the fragmented files FCP creates. The reason it affects FCP and not other NLEs is Apple's zero tolerance for any missing data in the mpeg2 stream. They seem to be demuxing the stream in ingest and re-writing the audio to 16bit 48Khz (as far as I can tell.) Any interuptions detects are immediately flagged as 'breaks' and the file is cut off and a new one begins (that's when the 5-6 second gap happens.)

This was essentially the explanation I was given by the rep. I had always heard that it had to do with the GOP structue. I am far limited in my technical understanding, however, so I don't know if these two are connected or not.

I might have some time this week to try the Panasonic MQ tapes. I've used the Sony HDV tapes in the past, but never really saw enough of a difference to warrant the expenditure for my applications. I've always used Panasonic DV.

Burt Holland

If Apple were to lower the stream rejection tolerance then I could see it being a simple fix. But what would happen to audio sync on long clips? Are dropped frames or disrupted frames an acceptable compromise?
Maybe they figured out another way to deal with it? I don't know.

Tim,

This is a very elusive problem. I thought I had the problem solved but it just came back completely randomly. I use JVC Pro HD tapes and it makes no apparent difference to the issue. My camera is pretty new and does not have a lot of hours on the head yet. How often would you recommend cleaning the heads? I am prepared to consider anything.

Lets hope that the JVC rep is on the money. I have been using the DVSCAP/MPEGstreamclip method and cant wait to just capture directly and trouble free to FCP - it seems a distant dream.


Rob

I use JVC Pro HD tapes and it makes no apparent difference to the issue. My camera is pretty new and does not have a lot of hours on the head yet. How often would you recommend cleaning the heads?

I run the head cleaner before every major shoot, which averages to probably 8 - 10 tapes.

Have you ever used a different brand of tape on those heads, or just stuck to ProHD from day1?
Out of curiosity, do you have an Intel processor or G4/G5? How much RAM?
Have you tried the same tapes in a different camera?

I know it sounds like we are searching for the needle in the haystack, but any additional information would be helpful to try to solve this problem.

Thanks Tim. Pertinent questions and here are the answers.

I am a bit surprised at using the head cleaner so often. I have shot about 40 hours and have not used it once yet.

As to tape I used to use Panasonic and then switched after about 20 tapes to JVC.

I use a G5 2 ghz (non intel) with 2 gigs of Ram.

What brand of head cleaner do you use? This sounds like the first thing that I should do.

Rob

I run the head cleaner before every major shoot, which averages to probably 8 - 10 tapes.

1/ Have you ever used a different brand of tape on those heads, or just stuck to ProHD from day1?
2/ Out of curiosity, do you have an Intel processor or G4/G5? How much RAM?
3/ Have you tried the same tapes in a different camera?

I know it sounds like we are searching for the needle in the haystack, but any additional information would be helpful to try to solve this problem.

Hey, Tim. Let's find that needle!

Here's my info on this matter:

1/ When I first got my camera (July 05) the Pro HD tapes weren't available, so I used about 10-15 Panasonic MQ tapes (AY-DVM63MQ) then switched to Pro HD tapes once they arrived and have used them ever since. It's had a number of cleans (since the switch) with the Panasonic head cleaner. But I don't think it's had "a few cycles" at the one time as you suggest in your earlier post.

2/ 1.9 GHz G5 with 1.5 GB RAM. Also, I normally capture to external drives (La Cie and Seagate) with FW400 connections.

3/ No.

Extra info:
a) On possible variation within Pro HD tape stock itself, I shot an event on the weekend (2 tapes). The first tape was from my own Pro HD stock (grey-black casing) and the second Pro HD tape was provided by someone else (white casing). When I got home and captured, the entire white tape captured in one go. Then I put in the grey-black tape and, although I shot the event continuously, it broke it into about 14 different clips. It made me wish I'd shot the event with two white tapes! But it also made me wonder whether they use more than one facility to manufacture Pro HD tapes and whether standards (or the materials used) may vary from place to place.

b) Once there are problems, the longer you go, the shorter the clips get. It might start breaking the clips at 3-4 minutes each. But, as you continue, it can get down to about 15 seconds. I attribute this to either the camera heads getting too "warm" or the computer/hard drives and then turn the camera off and the computer to sleep for a while, come back later, reconnect and usually find it will capture the remaining tapes in much bigger chunks (like 12 minutes each). So this point tends to be consistent with your theory about the camera heads and/or the computer system.

I have just started to have problems with capturing and playback of Panasonic tapes.

I am ready to purchase a Firestore and skip tape all together.

Tim, you have a Firestore, what has been your experience with it?

Right now I really hate tape!!!

Dan Weber

Right now I really hate tape!!!


I'm with you there - and we're probably not alone...

I hope that solid state DTD recording arrives soon. I'm a bit afraid of spinning hard drives used for recording important footage. I know you can record to tape also.

I hope that someone creates an external device that records to express cards (cheap) and connects to the camera via firewire - giving a similar work flow to P2. That way we are not limited to the size of the internal hard drive like the firestore. We simply take the express card and plug it in to a card reader on the computer, copy it to a hard drive and begin to edit. No capturing required.

Why does this sound too simple?

Drew

Split Clips

I've been thinking it has something to do with the way the MPEG-2 is laid down on tape, thinking that since Dec. But when time I mentioned tape, I was told it's a FCPro problem.

But the one thing I notice, if you look very carefully at a monitor, you'll see a 1-2 frame visual stutter right at the break point. (Most times, not always) Like the stream has errors. I have tried 2-3 brands of tape both Sony HDV and Panasonic MQ the top of the line and it happens with both. Have not tried JVC. We don't head clean every shoot.

Seems like the further into the tape, the more breaks...so as mentioned above, it may have to do with heat on the heads/tape over time or tension on the tape.



However, I become more and more convinced everyday that the faulty data streams are primarily caused by using non-recommended tape stock and not cleaning the heads on a regular basis. I ran into a few people at the booth who wanted to specifically tell me that they don't have the problem and capture long clips all the time. I asked these shooters what stock they used and I believe they all said the ProHD tape stock.
I spoke to about 9 or 10 people over the course of 4 days who do have problems capturing. Most of these people told me they use Panasonic MQ tape...some said Sony, but I'm not sure which flavour.



I urge anyone with these problems who has been using Panasonic MQ to buy a head cleaning cassette, run a few cycles, and then start using JVC ProHD stock. Please let us know if it works any better on ingest.

Why was this thread moved to Area 51?

This topic is one of the most important issues of the JVC ProHD cameras.

IMHO

Dave Beaty

Just did some fact checking on the Apple website and the HD100 is NOT technically supported by any flavor of Final Cut (including the forthcoming FCS2) and as such are we really sure that Apple will ever fix this? The BR-50 is "supported" but only in FCP 5.0.X (not shocking in and of itself) AND then only in 720p30 mode.

I have to say I'm pretty bummed about this -- is there any official word that Apple is going to address this issue? If i'm going to have to DVHSCAP and transcode everything anyway, maybe Avid's DNXHD is a better workaround than DVCPRO HD.

BTW, as a workaround idea to maintain proper timecode, has anyone successfully used the header record function such that when capturing via DVHSCAP the first all black frame after the bars and tone can be reliably referenced as an exact timecode? I know this is easily modifiable in FCP (i.e. off the top of my head, my first black frame is always 23:58:30:10) so I can go to that frame and Modify > Timecode to set it correctly. Is there an equivalent modification function in Avid's Xpress?

Why was this thread moved to Area 51?

This topic is one of the most important issues of the JVC ProHD cameras.

IMHO

Dave Beaty

Unconfirmed rumours and speculation of software or firmware updates belong in Area 51. The thread will be moved back to the JVC forum if/when the magical fix is released.

I´m working in a prodiction company that have 3 JVC cameras. I have no idea as to how many times they have been to service this last year. We get a lot of dropped frames and other artifacts. I think some of the problems are due to the use of cheap tapes, I have now got the head of tech department to change to "proper" tapes.

After seeing lots of digital squares all over my footage, I changed to a new tape of the same brand (Maxell) I tried to shoot some more and when checking this tape had no damage to it at all. I´ve kept shooting with the same camera for 3 days now with out problems.

Tapes are not the culprit of all the problems we have had though. Last week I was in Tallinn, Estonia shooting. At the end of our last day I was filming a theater premier and had to change battery just before the end. The camera died right there and then. Luckily I could borrow a pd150 and pull of the last interview. It´s sent off to JVC, I haven´t heard back yet.

I want to like this camera, I was thinking of getting one for myself, but seeing all the problems we have had I have decided to look elsewhere. Problem is that I want a "proper" lend like the JVC has.

I´m working in a prodiction company that have 3 JVC cameras. I have no idea as to how many times they have been to service this last year. We get a lot of dropped frames and other artifacts. I think some of the problems are due to the use of cheap tapes, I have now got the head of tech department to change to "proper" tapes.

After seeing lots of digital squares all over my footage, I changed to a new tape of the same brand (Maxell) I tried to shoot some more and when checking this tape had no damage to it at all. I´ve kept shooting with the same camera for 3 days now with out problems.

Tapes are not the culprit of all the problems we have had though. Last week I was in Tallinn, Estonia shooting. At the end of our last day I was filming a theater premier and had to change battery just before the end. The camera died right there and then. Luckily I could borrow a pd150 and pull of the last interview. It´s sent off to JVC, I haven´t heard back yet.

I want to like this camera, I was thinking of getting one for myself, but seeing all the problems we have had I have decided to look elsewhere. Problem is that I want a "proper" lend like the JVC has.
Sorry to hear about the death,

That is kind of surprising to me because I have seen one these guys fall off of tripods before and it didn't even phase it. It was most likely an isolated incident and I wouldn't include it in the list of hdxxx problems.

About the tape issue:

I have never used Maxell stock. I will have to give them a try if you have had great success with them.

The common advice is to "use only ProHD tapes". Well, I have been using ProHD tapes and they have not alleviated the problem. Even after getting the heads checked and cleaned, my problem still exists. I never get tapes that capture without at least 20 breaks.

I find it really hard to recommend the hdxxx to people I talk to, especially those who use FCP. The DR-HD100 is pretty much the only work around unless your hdxxx captures perfect footage for some strange reason.

If this is a tape issue: Why do only the HD tapes have breaks?

When I capture in SD(not hdv) , the whole tape will capture without a hitch. I sometimes get one break but it's extremely rare.

I think the problem is %100 JVC. The canons and sonys don't suffer from this problem.

So there's a fix, eh? Better late than never. I'd really like to know what took so long. Still, who doesn't love a happy ending?

In our case, we made our own happy ending but only after a long, sad beginning. Bought a JVC GY-HD100UA just when the "A" was released, hoping that the "A" solved the scene-splitting and content loss problems. No such luck.

We used only their finest tape...had the scene-splitting and content loss problems into FCP right from the start...did a few workarounds...did a few 720p30 projects that way...gorgeous results, but it was hell, HELL!

Staff rebelled at the hassle. Basically gave up and put the camera on the shelf for months and months...figured "they'll fix it soon, right?..." They didn't. It was so sad to see the camera gathering dust like that for so long while we continued shooting with Z1Us...

Then heard about the Firestore from Focus Enhancements...raced over to B&H and bought one...FABULOUS results in 720p24...all the problems: GONE! And (added bonus!) workflow is much, much faster with the Firestore. With no import from tape to sit through we dive right into the NLE same-day! I think we do a better job editing because everything is so utterly fresh-in-our-minds. It's hard to believe the joy of DTE until you start living with it. Focus Enhancements has done us all an enormous favor creating this spectacular little machine.

I'm glad to know there's a fix but the truth is, with two Firestores spinning merrily on every shoot, I don't care whether there's a fix or not. And if the fix costs money to get, fuhgeddabouddit: They're not getting a nickel for it from me: I'd rather spend my money at Focus Enhancements: They "fixed" the problem months ago.

Unconfirmed rumours and speculation of software or firmware updates belong in Area 51. The thread will be moved back to the JVC forum if/when the magical fix is released.

It looks like the firmware update for the HD200 can be confirmed.

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/HDTV/soft/200_upgrade/index.html

The white paper claims:
This firmware will eliminate or minimize the number of clips that Final Cut Pro generates for a continuously re corded HDV section of tape.

This thread will be moved back to the ProHD forum soon.

This looks great -- but what about us HD100 owners? Any word on that firmware update?

Wow: Area 51 was totally the right place for this thread, no question about it.

First of all the fix is for HD200s and HD250s -- not for HD100s and HD110s.

What a disappointment.

It's the smaller operators with HD100s and HD110s who really needed this fix: Wealthier users with 200s and 250s are much more likely to have Firestore DR-HD100 DTEs (which eliminate the problem) anyway.

And then there is the cryptic phrase "eliminate or minimize." HA HA HA! That is actually funny! So instead of breaking my taped take into, say, 5 pieces, the new improved firmware may "minimize" the problem -- by continuing to break my take into say, just two or three pieces? With a five second loss of content each time? And that's only if I bought the $8000 or $9000 or $11,000 camera -- not the $4700 camera.

A great moment in the history of video technology compatibility this most certainly is not.

If you own a GY-HD100 or HD110 it is now completely clear that the Firestore DR-HD100 DTE - a $1400 investment at minimum -- is required in order to make your camera behave normally with Final Cut Pro.

The good news is that once you spend that money, you will be so happy with your improved workflow with the DTE that you will THANK JVC for having made it impossible for you NOT to buy one.

I'm not sure about all clouds, but this one definitely has that proverbial silver lining.

I have a few Focus DR-HD100's and I have had lots of problems with clips being corrupt. I considered if this is related to the breaks on ingest from tape but never correlated the two. This is using the HD250. It seemed random, if I had 50 clips on the disk, 4 would be corrupt and unreadable by any app. Others were reporting this too.

But Focus just released an update to fix this problem that, according to READ ME : version 2.2.1.04032307:
- Resolved occasional corrupt QT HDV files with non-continuous stream from the GY-HD camera."

Doesn't say much or even if it's a stream problem in the HD or coming from the camera.

Dave B

Wow: Area 51 was totally the right place for this thread, no question about it.

First of all the fix is for HD200s and HD250s -- not for HD100s and HD110s.

What a disappointment.

It's the smaller operators with HD100s and HD110s who really needed this fix: Wealthier users with 200s and 250s are much more likely to have Firestore DR-HD100 DTEs (which eliminate the problem) anyway.

And then there is the cryptic phrase "eliminate or minimize." HA HA HA! That is actually funny! So instead of breaking my taped take into, say, 5 pieces, the new improved firmware may "minimize" the problem -- by continuing to break my take into say, just two or three pieces? With a five second loss of content each time? And that's only if I bought the $8000 or $9000 or $11,000 camera -- not the $4700 camera.

A great moment in the history of video technology compatibility this most certainly is not.

If you own a GY-HD100 or HD110 it is now completely clear that the Firestore DR-HD100 DTE - a $1400 investment at minimum -- is required in order to make your camera behave normally with Final Cut Pro.

The good news is that once you spend that money, you will be so happy with your improved workflow with the DTE that you will THANK JVC for having made it impossible for you NOT to buy one.

I'm not sure about all clouds, but this one definitely has that proverbial silver lining.

well, that's all well and good, and I do want one.. another option is to pick up Adobe Premier Pro CS3. Has anyone tried Adobe since they have come back to the mac platform? At this point, I'm thinking of picking up a PC WinTell just to do my editing. Need a 3rd computer anyway.