Hey guys, I just had a pretty funny experience. Me and 2 friends were filming for this video, and basically I got a bunch of shots, and we were right by the mall, and we went into the mall, and then I just walked around with my camera (turned off) and then I wanted to get a shot of my friend Jacob, laying on this brick wall type thing, and when I turned my camera on to get the shot, it became more obvious and the people cleaning there were like "GET OUT OF HERE*@$*#$*!!!".

So we left, without hesitation, because I had gotten the shot, and on the way out, Jacob grabbed this little crappy broom, to be funny, and he ended up walking out of the food court with it, and then this guy that does nothing but wipe off tables, came out running after us, and we all took off running, and I went in a differnet direction then Donovan and Jacob, and I got footage of this guy chasing them. Basically I am out of shape and I can't run fast, and I couldn't get across the street, because if I could of, I would of gotten away, so after Donovan and Jacob got across the street (I couldnt get across because there were cars coming and I am slow :D) the cleaning mall guy came running over to me, and grabs my shirt and starts going nuts. He was a black guy, and it was honestly pretty funny because I thought he was seriously stoned, he looked like someone on some pills or something.

After he like ripped my shirt yelling at me, he was like “I NEED EVERYTHING I NEED FOR ME TO NEED@**@”, seriously, he said that, and it made no sense, so I started laughing, and then these mall cop guys on this truck came flying over there at like 200MPH, and they made us go back to the “headquarters”, where basically they banned us for 6 months.

I have the paper right here, and we were banned for “THE ABOVE NAMED PERSON SHALL BE BANNED FROM THE CANTON CENTRE MALL FOR THE DURATION OF 6 MONTHS” “THE ABOVE NAMED PERSON IS BANNED FOR THE FOLLOWING REASONS: disobeying mall rules/disobeying mall employees/theft of mall property”

Hahaha, mall rules? Basically what he meant by that is “copyright laws”, that’s the MAIN thing these guys were mad about, and I couldn’t make much sense of it. He was mad because we violated copyright laws by recording video in the mall, now tell me how the hell that makes any sense, especially when the ONLY thing that I recorded in the mall was my friend Jacob sitting laying on a brick wall thing, that’s all, seriously. The tiles on the wall are copywritten? WTF?! I wasn’t disobeying the mall employees, them guys were disobeying us, heh, and all the “theft of mall property” was for, was when my friend walked out with the broom, and he dropped it before we knew we were even being chased.

Mall cops think they own the world, and that guy was like “I’M GOING TO CALL REAL COPS AND HAVE YOU GUYS ARRESTED!!!!.” Haha, REAL cops wouldn’t do crap.


Yeah, so thats pretty much it, I left my camera recording the whole time in the "headquarters" and when they were chasing us and crap. I'm going to edit it up, and i'll post and if anyone wants to see it, i'll put it online, heh.

Now for the question to all the really smart people about this stuff, were we REALLY not following copyright laws by filming in the mall, especially just for personal use, and especially since the only thing we got on film was a brick wall by the bathrooms in the foodcourt.

(some of the things stated here might be repeated over and might not make sense, since I typed this fast).


Thanks.

You got to keep the footage, I hope.

A shopping mall is private property owned by whatever retail firm manages the place. It would be a mistake to assume it's public property and that you can freely tape there. Some tourists or families might have a camcorder on in a mall sometimes, no big deal, but the management is at their leisure to enforce their policies whenever they choose (they can legally say that shooting tape in their mall is okay for some people, as in tourists, but not others, as in you). Hope this helps,

Mall security is alot more lax on videotaping if you aren't screwing around, acting like a dink, and stealing stuff while you do it.

Things probably would have be fine if you foolish friend would have acted a little more mature.


Just my 2 cents.

I had a friend, a fellow videographer, that accompanied a group of semi-pro surfers to Puerto Rico for surf footage. What I saw of the footage as I transferred it for him, were 3 immature jerks, running through the airport, climbing up on the moving treadway's rails, and swearing. To top this off, they snuck onto a croc farm, and were harassing the baby crocs. The fact that there was a camera on them, just encouraged the behaviour, as if to show off.

What you and your friends did, was to create a disturbance, and by running off, create a possible hazard for anyone that may have been in the way. The fact that there was a camera on them, enticed them to act like bigger fools. It is because of immature stunts like this, that make it harder for decent folks to enjoy the mall, and decent videographers to access the mall for footage. Grow up.

Keith, No. We weren't doing anything like that, you don't understand. We were attempting to get a shot for this silent film (video) that I am going to throw together, which is basically all weirdness, with some funky music.

Alex: Basically I am out of shape and I can't run fast, and I couldn't get across the street,...Just a tip: Fix that. No, not so that you can out-run security guards <g>. But few things will improve your camera handling abilities more than being in good shape. You'll see your general stamina and steadiness improve markedly. Not to mention all of the health and general outlook-on-life benefits a good exercise program will bring. At your young age this should be an easy thing to do, certainly easier than it will be 10 years from now.

When I was between 9 and 13 years of age, Alex, I did some really dumb things. Like ride my CCM Charger 2-speed in the mall while the security were chasing me. (They never caught me.) My younger brother would put on a wig and stand perfectly still beside a display dummy, while I took pictures of him and the people faces that saw him. Sometimes I was real brave, and would throw an egg (or a snowball with a rock in it) at a police officer, and have him chase me. (I could out run anyone in those days. In fact, I used to go out at night and chase rabbits and hares. Even they couldn't out-run, out-dodge me.) And I wonder why my knees are all screwed up today. Yeah, I was stupid, but it was fun at the time. Now don't go picking up on any of these stupid thigs I did when I was young! We didn't have video cams in those days....

Now for the question to all the really smart people about this stuff, were we REALLY not following copyright laws by filming in the mall, especially just for personal use, and especially since the only thing we got on film was a brick wall by the bathrooms in the foodcourt.

Does anyone have thoughts on the actual question?

Actually I think Chris hit the nail on the head for that question. It's not a matter of copyright, it's a matter of rights. Shopping malls are private property and their management can selectively deny anyone the right to photograph on the property.

No one ever complains when I take pictures of stuff in malls. When I see something unique, like a strange dummy or some strange toys, I give them a "click" or 2. But shooting people without their permission, well, I do this all the time but I do it in such a way that they (the subject) think I'm taking a pic about something else, or do it when no one is looking, or with their permission. Sometimes I get hired to do some shooting were I have to pretend that I'm just a tourist out shooting some of the buildings, mind you, I've been hired to shoot buildings as well.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Tanaka : Actually I think Chris hit the nail on the head for that question. It's not a matter of copyright, it's a matter of rights. Shopping malls are private property and their management can selectively deny anyone the right to photograph on the property. -->>>

This video will be done in about a half hour, i'll put it on my FTP if you guys want to download it, and the guy kept repeating stuff about you cant film in there because of copyright laws, thats it. He told me I didn't know what I was talking about, I don't think HE knew what he was talking about.

Alex,
I strongly suspect that the guard didn't know anything copyright about laws. Nevertheless, regardless of what he said, he was within his rights to deny you from filming on the property and to eject you from the mall.

Managements of public places are understandably more nervous about seeing young males making videos on their properties. They see potential threats around every corner.

Alex said:
"on the way out, Jacob grabbed this little crappy broom, to be funny, and he ended up walking out of the food court with it, and then this guy that does nothing but wipe off tables, came out running after us, and we all took off running"
--------------------------------------------------
After reading your first post, it seems to me like you just p*ssed off one of the janitors by making fun of him and stealing his little broom (no matter how "crappy" it was) then you made somewhat of a scene. No doubt this attracted the attention of the mall customers and angered the staff/management. So when they finally grabbed you they just came up with some excuse.

If you guys handled things a little better it probably wouldn't have escalated into such a big deal...

There wasn't really anyway to handle anything any better, though. After Jacob took the broom and waved it in the window, it was downhill from there.

(the video will be online soon)

Alex, you kind of got away lucky. ALthough you probably didn't violate any copyright laws, it is private property so they can make whatever rules they want. If after the initial approach by whoever it was, you had acted like an adult, you would have left unharrassed. Instead you and your homies acted like a couple of disrespectful immature 14 year olds, which is to be expected because, hey, you are 14.

We all did stupid stuff as kids. You just don't realize what an a-hole you've been until a decade or two later.

Alex,

I'd be setting a bad example for the Wranglers if I said that that footage was endlessly entertaining. So I won't say that. And I'd be giving you the wrong ideas about your conduct--online and in the real world--if I said that your insolence borders on the heroic. So I won't say that either.

But the bit about the copyright should have been challenged. I don't know whether that security officer had right to deprive you of your property (your camcorder tape)--but it's a question that should be answered, and once you know the answer, stick to your convictions.

And I wonder if I'd be offering bad advice if I said: Never point the camera away from the action. Show faces. Show hands covering the lens and swatting the camera away. If you're going to get yourself into the thick of trouble, don't be shy about it.

As far as the video it reminded me of my grandpa forgetting to turn the camera off when he was walking.
For what you guys did was just stupid. But dont worry we all do stupid things.
As for the dumb security guards. Copyright...lol no way did you break a copyright other than that song you used, unless you made that song. Second for the management not to be there is just a joke. To instill fear, is to get you to comply and then they have you. He just didn't care what you said. ID for 14 year old...lol. It wouldn't even matter if they called the cops. Nothing would of happened anyways.
I remember when I was 14 my friends and I set off firecrackers inbetween some concrete walls for a stairway. Once we got done setting them off we didnt get any farther than half a block before the cops where there. two of them. I guess it sounded to much like a shotgun...lol. Oh btw I have a butane lighter. They took that and destroyed the fireworks...Poor illegal fireworks:( Stupid was I.

If you did goto management you could request information about filming on property. If your filming something for private use on public property it is ok but the second you are thinking of using it for profit or just to show to the public you need a permit.

Next time think of a story or better yet just rent Mallrats. LOL.

Rob:D

Hahah classic, i should be above this type of humour, but damn it makes me laugh. Too bad you ain't here in oz Alex, i actually know the owner of the biggest Mall in my city, you could walk around all day with a camera and nobody would say a word.

I have a similar story, well actually we were much more naughty than you, but i don't have it on tape.

Heres one just for you. We had a scene set for a movie and the time had crept up on us and we didn't have time nor money for permits, so we thought 6am would be a good time to shoot in the busiest and also most dangerous part of our city.

Now the problem with these scene is that we had 2 actors in exact replicas of police uniforms, a current model car that is indentical to what cops use with a police strobe on the top, and a criminal type character with a briefcase full of plastic bags of white powder.

Ohh did i mention everyone actually had *real* guns on them, that were simply welded in the actual barrels so they could never work again.

we had NO permits for ANY of this.

Last but not least we were blocking traffic, and well the 2 actors were acting like cops, not part of the script, and waving cars past around 200 meters ahead of us (the crew) preping the equipment. Well cops come and start chatting to them, and we think we are screwed, but when we get there they are chatting about how they are new to the force and thats why they hadn't met before HAH! Then the cops go away, and we start filming, and somebody see's the guy running with a briefcase and guns coming out and so on, and musn't have seen us, because they called the police and around 8 cop cars showed up in full gear with shotguns out!!!!!!

Lets just say we narrowly avoided going to jail, we all got a fine but got off anything further due to being dumb uni students. So we were all $500 poorer, but got the scene done!!

Zac

Ps. it would have been cheaper to get permits.

Alex,

If you're interested in DV filmmaking I might refer you to Canton-area filmmaker and entrepreneur Chad Kapper, who runs StoneKap Productions (http://www.stonekap.com/). Chad has directed a few features and has been a panelist and workshop instructor at the Midwest Independent Filmmakers Conference. He's always looking for people to help out on shoots or intern for his production company doing editing and CG work.

You can even find a lengthy interview with Chad on filmedincleveland.com.

If interested, introduce yourself. Just send him an e-mail.

I wouldn't mention the mall incident, though.

Here in the SF Bay area they arrested some dude that had a camera in his shoes that was peeping out of a hole on top of the shoe which he was using to peep up women's skirts and stuff, he got slapped very well by five-0 and did some time for it. But I think this is something quite different.

When I was younger we tried to take an 8mm to "Wet Seal", that's where all the foine women were getting their clothes, not to be a peeping tom, but just to capture them as they are, that quickly got us evicted from the store, but they never kicked us out of the mall.

Only time I got thorwn out of the mall was in Concord, back when Concord, CA was like "Mississippi in the 60's" when a few of my African-American, Mexican-American, etc. friends were going to buy some shoes, and mall security escorted our every step all the way out the door, and told us "don't come back," as we exited with our purchases. Mind you we did nothing to incite the attention, an African-American officer told us, "Hey, remember this is Concord."

Alex, you should read this post:

http://www.dv.com/forums/showReplies.jhtml?sid=1&fid=2&tid=77500000

He suggests some good, constructive advice.

Alex, I've had a few very similar encounters at my local mall that I think may help to answer your question:

When I was 15, my now long-term, then new creative partner and I went to the mall with a camera to do a segment for our school's TV/Video program called "People of Sarasota." It was essentially the Tom Green Show 5 years before we'd ever heard of Tom Green. We had a novelty lollipop with a read cricket inside and we went around trying to get random people to eat it (we succeeded!). Eventually, the security guards came and, without even letting us offer to cease and desist, escorted us from the mall, citing their "No Solicitation" policy. This seemed flawed to us, as we weren't trying to get people to buy anything, but we were apparently soliciting their participation in our video on private property. The next week, we went to the other mall in town, immediatly sought out a security guard, told him we were doing this video for school and asked if it was all right. Yup. He even gave us a little interview and let us tape him as he banned a couple of skater kids (whom we also interviewed). The Moral: Ask.

Then, when I was 21 or 22, opening night of "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back" we dressed up as Jay and Bob, got our trusty HandiCam (a week before we got our XL1) and went to the mall. We taped all kinds of stuff; High School kids getting our autographs, the security guards telling us we couldn't tape in the mall, us pretending to turn off the camera, the security guards telling us that if we didn't stop this time, we'd be escorted out, us telling them we were working for the theater, them telling us we needed to stay by the theater, and finally....The Mosh Pit. We had a boombox with a lot of Songs from the other Jay and Bob films and we were loud and gathered a crowd and when we started playing music and dancing around, several people joined in, security chased us, caught us and banned us for a year, citing...get this..."Inciting a Riot." But then, out intention was to get kicked out of the mall, just as we had gotten kicked out of a Quick Stop earlier in the evening. It was a publicity stunt. So, uh....take the lesson from the first story, not the second one.

-Shawn

P.S. If you'd like to see a couple pictures of us as Jay N' Bob, I can post some -- we look pretty good

Alex to quote a great TV actor who is in a bit of a mess himself, "don't do the crime if you can't do the time"

<<<-- Originally posted by Shawn McBee :
P.S. If you'd like to see a couple pictures of us as Jay N' Bob, I can post some -- we look pretty good -->>>

Post 'em bro. Funny story!

When you look into getting a permit or permission in a mall find out who owns it. Screw the management.

Ed DeBartolo in Ohio owns about 40% of the malls in the country.

Ed Jr. would probably be the guy to talk to.

I flew Ed's jet for a few weeks as a stand in for a vacationing copilot.

Sometimes the owners will cooperate. When I do a few shots around the area I go to the county supervisor first. Then I take his recommendation to the court house to get a permit.

If I want something I start a the top or as near as possible. Same goes for shooting in school districts, apartment complexes, etc. Send a letter to the owner.

I will I cold have shoot you guys getting into trouble.

Maybe we should do a re-make of your growing up day!!

I agree with Bob that starting at the top when asking permission is often a good strategy. I do not necessarily agree with starting with the ownership. In fact, it would be a waste of time. Most shopping malls today are owned as part of real estate investment trust organizations, of which the Simon Property Group and Taubman are the two kingpins. (The DeBartolo Property Group (http://www.debartolopropertygroup.com/) does own a few malls but their holdings are miniscule.) These organizations are not concerned with the malls' day-to-day operations and would quickly defer such an inquiry to the management company that they've hired to manage the mall in question. So, starting with the mall's management company would be the best strategy. Certainly not the mall's security guards.

Ken,

I worked for Mel Simon in Indianapolis also.

Intersting person.

In some cases the top is not best. First, malls are always owned by strange people. Mel and Ed are a little strange.

In any situation, be it malls or downtown court yards, know who owns the place and know that persons secretary.

The secretary runs the business, so to speak.

When I attempt to get in touch with the owners are the secretary I know their names.

If I call for the owner of a apartment complex I make two calls. The first is to find out the secretaries names and the next to "sweet talk" her. I start with "Hey this Bob Deming, what's Karla doing? I need to talk to her for a min."

Or I worm my way in somehow. Approach is the who key to getting what ya want.

Cheers

I don't know the whole relationship but DPG owns a substantial part of Simon Property Group.

Its a grrrreat story about DeBartolo and Mel Simon.

Ed tried to buy the Chicago White Soxs for his daughter many years ago. Mel owned or owns the Indiana Pacers. I don't follow it much.

Can't say much more about that situation. I guess its like pilot employer relationship. Like attorney client privileges.

Later Gang!

Simon Property Group is organized as a publicly-traded REIT. According to their 2002 annual report and financial statement I see that the DeBartolo family (a.k.a. NID Corporation) own 9.1% of the outstanding shares of SPG. Denise DeBartolo York is also on Simon's board and Richard Sokolov, DeBartolo Realty's's former CEO, is Simon's President and CEO.

Sure would make a great movie!

Wonder if we could get Ed (Senior) to talk. Would be interesting to interview the daughter. She was a little wild in her days (about 20 yrs ago).

But the Simon ties to Ed's family would be something like....damn I can't think of the word.

If I say like "Godfather III or IV" it wouldn't be fair to Ed or Mel. But the deals they put together and the money involved would be cool to screenplay.

Hey, just to get into Mel's compound on 86th street in Indianapolis is a trick. To use his compound for a shoot would be cool as hell.

Maybe I should call Ed, Jr. and see if he and his sister would be interested in a little short (skirt). If she gets made she is the type that tosses as drink in your face. But a nice girl!

So, who's gonna call Eddie or Mel?

Hahahahahaha!!!